Jump to content

King Of Goldfish, Ranchus And Lionheads The Difference ?


Recommended Posts

  • Regular Member

To my understanding at one point all ranchus looked pretty much like what we now call a lionhead but the Japanise like went for no wren and curved back and the chinise stuck with the big wren and straight which made the ranchu look different depending on wether it was chinise (lionhead) or japanise (ranchu).

as such that all lionheads are ranchus, which means a ranchu with a big wren and straight back is a lionhead ranchu and a ranchu with no wren and a curved back are japanise ranchus !!

i would like you imput on this guys ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

I don't really agree with your view there.

To me ranchu and lionhead, although similar to untrained eyes and definitely comes from the same ancestor, are definitely two different breeds of goldfish both of which have a long history of development along their respected lines for centuries.

The wen shape is different (not just big or small), the body shape is different, the caudal peduncle and caudal fin is different, even the head shape is different.

After looking at hundreds and thousands of ranchu & lionhead pics, certain characteristics will pop up when u look at a fish and u'll be able to say that it's a ranchu or lionhead.

So, IMO, ranchu & lionhead, two completely separate breeds which characteristics has been set that can't be mixed up with each other, and worthy of looking into deeper.

Edited by d_golem
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

hmm... for me the difference is really more cosmetic (by appearance) than by lineage... Breeders have reported getting mixed batches of fry that sport ranchu and lionhead traits from a single spawn.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Even a straight-backed ranchu fry will have that unmistakeable ranchu "look", same as a curved-back lionhead fry will have that lionhead "look".

hmm... for me the difference is really more cosmetic (by appearance) than by lineage... Breeders have reported getting mixed batches of fry that sport ranchu and lionhead traits from a single spawn.

I beg to differ, especially in TVR. There is no way u can mistake a TVR fry from any other goldfish fry (except maybe SVR) and that proves breeders stick to lineage and standards

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

i know they are quite different fish and agree they have been breed differently but what i want to know is a lionhead and a ranchu the same fish just bred for difference looks

and if i should (in theory) be calling a lionhead a lionhead ranchu, a ranchu a Japanese ranchu and collectively inclueding all cross breeds simply a RANCHU :)

Is there a official stance on this as there quite often seems to be confusion and no set answer ?

i know at the end of the day theres a difference as ranchus (Japanese) are my favourite goldfish where as im not as fond of lionheads still like them but prefer other goldfish !

Edited by Padda's pal
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Even a straight-backed ranchu fry will have that unmistakeable ranchu "look", same as a curved-back lionhead fry will have that lionhead "look".

hmm... for me the difference is really more cosmetic (by appearance) than by lineage... Breeders have reported getting mixed batches of fry that sport ranchu and lionhead traits from a single spawn.

I beg to differ, especially in TVR. There is no way u can mistake a TVR fry from any other goldfish fry (except maybe SVR) and that proves breeders stick to lineage and standards

Hmm... kinda did forget about the TVRs... but that's as far as I will admit. I think you misunderstood my post; I didn't mean that breeders report getting fry that sport BOTH ranchu and lionhead traits, but that breeders report seeing individual fry that looked like ranchus and lionheads (separate fish that are different from each other in appearance, in effect) from a single spawn. I'm guessing the ranchu-like fry resemble side-view ranchu in that respect.

Of course TVRs are very distinctive. They've been line-bred for generations so their traits are as fixed as thoroughbred horses.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

i know they are quite different fish and agree they have been breed differently but what i want to know is a lionhead and a ranchu the same fish just bred for difference looks

No, they are not the same fish. Their ancestor, which is the Maruko, is the same. The Maruko is also the ancestor of Shukin, Izumo Nankin & Osaka Ranchu (and I suspect it also has a hand in the development of Bubble-eyes and Celestial). Each of those breed has their own certain standards and breeders have perfected those standards for centuries. So they're not the same fish, not at all.

and if i should (in theory) be calling a lionhead a lionhead ranchu, a ranchu a Japanese ranchu and collectively inclueding all cross breeds simply a RANCHU :)

Whoa ur making things hard for urself there, mate. A lionhead is simply a lionhead, not a lionhead ranchu, because they're two distinctly different fish.

There is a breed called the lionchu, which is a ranchu but with the wen type of a lionhead.

I think you misunderstood my post; I didn't mean that breeders report getting fry that sport BOTH ranchu and lionhead traits, but that breeders report seeing individual fry that looked like ranchus and lionheads (separate fish that are different from each other in appearance, in effect) from a single spawn. I'm guessing the ranchu-like fry resemble side-view ranchu in that respect.

I think goldfish breeding is very uncertain & unstable business. A pairing of showclass SVRs won't produce 100% showclass SVR fry, some will be deformed, some will have straight backs, some will have single tails, and some will even have dorsal fin, with only 10-15% will be of credible standard.

In the end, I'm not a breeder and haven't got chance at breeding yet, so what I said was from my readings and research into this matter.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Go to "Chinese ranchu" link and check the inscription under the pic labeled "Lionhead amongst various ranchu" for breeders' observation of brood traits.

http://www.bristol-aquarists.org.uk/goldfi...nchu/ranchu.htm

That 'lionhead" in the picture is clearly obtained from ranchu parents, shown by the wen type which is very ranchu-ish.

Obtaining lionhead chracteristics among ranchu fry is totally possible, as they come from the same ancestor. As I said before that goldfish breeding is very uncertain.

But we're veering away from Padda's pal question here, which is whether it's ok to call a lionhead "lionhead ranchu", a ranchu "japanese ranchu", and a crossbreed "ranchu". I still say no, because every breeder who breed ranchu will try to get ranchu fry of high standard, the same as lionhead breeder will try to get lionhead fry. Those breeders try their hardest to perfect the standard for each breed, as were their predecessors centuries ago did before them. To call a lionhead or a ranchu a name other than the name it's meant to have is just plain confusing and, in my opinion, an insult to every breeder that strives so hard to perfect the standard for both breed.

PS: Those ranchus in the pics in the "Chinese ranchu" link are awesome! Especially the top left calico ranchu in the last pic...... :druel :

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

what you seem to be missing is i'm not asking if its ok to give them other names i want to know the officially correct termanology,

an insult to every breeder ? not sure where your going with that statment and i think its a bit stronger then what we are talking about and nothing to do with what we are talking about

i am not trying to cause confuseion i'm trying to stop it,

note the fact there called chinese ranchu !!

Edited by Padda's pal
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Dunno if this is the official terminology (as people call goldfish differently in different country), but I this is the most commonly used terms most likely resembling the terms u mentioned:

1. Lionhead ranchu - Lionchu (a ranchu that has lionhead-type wen with ranchu body)

2. Japanese ranchu - TVR (top-view ranchu)

3. Chinese ranchu - SVR (side-view ranchu. Now there's thai SVR that has different characteristics with chinese SVR)

4. Ranchu - an umbrella term describing all types of ranchu

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

i do like the terminology you use and it makes sense (I think :) )

would the one in you sig be a SVR ?

Thx :)

Indeed she's an SVR, but not displaying the wen growth (such a shame) typically associated with this type of ranchu. Most likely she's a locally bred fish from foreign parents and being a not-up-to-standard fry, was sold to a grubby LFS from which ultimately I got her sometime last year :D

She resembles Osaka Ranchu more than an SVR if u ask me :lol:

Edited by d_golem
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

1. Lionhead ranchu - Lionchu (a ranchu that has lionhead-type wen with ranchu body)

2. Japanese ranchu - TVR (top-view ranchu)

3. Chinese ranchu - SVR (side-view ranchu. Now there's thai SVR that has different characteristics with chinese SVR)

4. Ranchu - an umbrella term describing all types of ranchu

as such that all lionheads are ranchus, which means a ranchu with a big wren and straight back is a lionhead ranchu and a ranchu with no wren and a curved back are japanise ranchus !!

i would like you imput on this guys ;)

Given the terminology above by golem, and now applied to you 1st question.

all lionheads are ranchus NO, which means a ranchu with a big wren and straight back is a lionhead ranchu NO - it can only be a loinhead and a ranchu with no wren and a curved back are japanise ranchus not enteirly true

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

on a site i read that, japanese ranchus are bred to have lots of head growth, then the chinese ranchu has no head growth, and then there is the lionhead with with the longer back, and straight back, from what i understand they are called breeds but they all come form the same fish, it is just picking which is what they perfecting latter breeding with better lines, that is how most animal breeds have evolved in to purebreds by mixing two or more, my thoughts only and this is what i believe.

Edited by puggirl
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

but they all come form the same fish

That same fish existed over 200 years ago :D

same as breeding dogs. All dogs now came from the same dog, but evolved into different types with centuries of selective breeding.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

i appreciate all input but kinder i cant seem to find your point i read it twice :) and still no wiser are you just saying you agree with d golem ?

Ps loinhead :lol:

What puggirl is saying is not far from the way i thought it was; but given that things might be different for different countrys i thought of a plan for me to find out for UK i am going to find out how they judge them and there terminology

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

I believe that they are very different types of goldfish.

From the things I've read about ranchus, ranchus are bred to perfection, with respect to headgrowth, body shape, fin shape, tail shape and all. It should be egg shaped with little headgrowth and the tail muscles have to be very thick like a "sumo wrestler". So it's very painful to hear some people call a ranchu a lionhead and vice versa, simply because some people have taken so much time perfecting the ranchu. Just my 2 cents. :)

Don't get me wrong, I also love lionheads with their squarish face :o

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

I dunno where people get the notion that ranchu should have little headgrowth. Ranchu got A LOT of headgrowth, just different shape to lionhead.

Can anyone honestly say that this particular ranchu below got little headgrowth?

PatternNKfarmSVR.jpg

Image from Petsfanatic Ranchu Club. This ranchu is a Show Class Thai SVR. Thai ranchus are often characterized by their very prominent "buffalo-cheeks".

And how about this particular TVR below?

OyaTVR.jpg

Image from Petsfanatic Ranchu Club. This is an Oya (3-yr old or older) Thai TVR that got 2nd place in last year's All Thailand Ranchu Show.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...