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Guest SminiFish

Fish Has Been Swimming Upside Down And Is Listless

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Guest SminiFish

Hi Dave,

Uno and Cajun seem to be doing fine and the tank and filtration seem to be running smoothly. I actually have some algae starting to grow in the tank. I haven't seen this in so long, as the algae originally all died off suddenly about 6 months ago. Looking back on this now, that should have been a tell tale sign that things were not good in my tank! Uno is a bit more lively today but I've noticed Cajun (a Black moor) has lost a few of his scales on the side of his body. It looks kind of gold in color where the scales once were. Could this be due to the poor water quality?

I did notice that Cajun's stools have been thin, white, and stringy, which from my readings on other posts and Koko's web site, indicates an internal bacterial infection. :ill I have some antibiotic food from Goldfish Connection (Medi-Gold) so I have been feeding them that. They don't seem to like it as much as the Pro Gold, so I add in a couple of Pro Gold pellets with the Medi-Gold to entice them to eat.

I added in another pouch of Biospira today because the nitrites still are not going down, even after I have been doing water changes. I will give the new Biospira some time to get started and then test the water again tomorrow. Hopefully this second batch will help lower the nitrites.

Will keep in touch and let you know how things are going. Talk to you soon! :hi

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Susan,

I think the recommendation is to feed ONLY the medicated food for at least 10 to 14 days - nothing else.

Many things can cause loss of a few scales, as long as there is nothing else going on, I wouldn't worry too much. Just watch the area and see what they look like as they grow back in - this will likely take a few weeks.

My nitrites in my main stayed at like 5 for what seemed like forever, and then, boom, yesterday they were zero. So I know how frustrating it can be! I will bet the extra BioSpira will help.

My fish Nemo did the same as Cajun - long white poops. I salted him in a QT, and gave him 2 rounds of Parasite Clear, but putting a UV sterilizer on his tank is what seems to have made the difference for him. I also fed him metromed for an additional course of 14 days. Now, he only occasionally has a white stringy poop, and I've heard that once in a while this is to be expected, as long as there are normal poops mixed in.

Dave

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Guest SminiFish

Hi Dave,

Do you think I can go ahead and add in some salt to the tank now, even though I added in the new pouch of Biospira yesterday?

I tested the water this morning: Ammonia is 0 and Nitrite is 0.5. Much better than 5 for sure. Cajun and Uno have been such troopers through all of this.

I will just feed the Medi-Gold for the next two weeks, no Pro-Gold. I'll keep you posted! Talk to you soon!

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I see no reason you can't salt to .1% now. In fact, it will probably help them fight the nitrItes. I don't know when you do water changes, but if it is in the evening, you may want to do a half-dose of Prime in the morning as well, just to make sure.

Algae growing means that you are indeed producing nitrAtes, so that is indeed good. Just need to wait until the nitrIte eating bugs get there population up to what is required for Uno and Cajun. I would also do 25% water changes (and two a day if necessary) to keep the nitrItes no higher than they are. Two 25% changes will be easier on the good bugs than a single 50%, though I know it is more work that way.

The fact that your ammo is zero is a good sign!

Dave

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Guest SminiFish

Hi Dave,

I came home today and found one lone white fuzzy dot on Cajun's head. :( It wasn't there this morning so just appeared in less than 12 hours. I went ahead and added some aquarium salt to the tank because since I added another pouch of Biospira to the tank on Monday, I am a bit weary of doing any water changes for a few days and don't feel like medicating in the middle of a cycle would be a good idea. What do you think? Is my thinking on this correct? If need be, I can get Cajun back into the hospital tank and medicate him. He is acting fine and swimming about. I am feeding him and Uno Medi-Gold. I haven't had a chance to test the water yet today, but will post the results from that later. Looking forward to your reply.

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Susan,

One Fuzzy? Hmm - you're beyond what I have experienced, I'm afraid. But if I am correct, the fuzzys are often fungal, though they could be parasitic. At this point I'd watch it closely, and plan to do a water change tomorrow after your water tests. 25% will not affect your cycle or BioSpira dose.

I've dealt with parasites, the Jungle Labs Parasite Clear and a UV sterilizer fixed up Nemo pretty quickly. The good thing about PC is it does not mess up your cycle. I think they also make a fungus med, if that is what it turns out to be, but again, I don't know much about it since I've never needed it.

Take a look tomorrow. If it is worse, we'll call in some additional help since I am not experienced here.

Salt was a good thing to do. Medi-Gold only for 14 days should help, as well. I would not rush to the QT unless things deteriorate, but I would make sure the QT is as cycled as possible, as insurance, just in case you need it.

These secondary things happen often - with me it was Nemo's parasites. In general, they are fairly responsive to treatment, and it does not *usually* need to be as agressively treated as to what you had to go through at first.

You're doing great, and it sounds like Uno and Cajun are well on the way back to good health! Hang in there. This, too, shall pass.

Dave

Edited by parkerdt

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Guest SminiFish

Hi Dave,

Thank you so much for your help! I tested the water and ammonia is 0, nitrites are at 0.25 (much lower than yesterday, which was 0.5! :) ), and NitrAtes are 40. So it seems that the nitrites are on their way down (Yeah!)

The white fuzzy thing on Cajun's head now looks like a white cyst or pustule. I'll keep a close eye on it and keep you posted.

Uno seems to be a bit more lethargic today, which surprises me since the nitrites are on their way down. I am so afraid to do a water change since the nitrites are on their way down. I'm afraid if I do, I will mess up the cycle. :(

I'll keep in touch and let you know how things are going. Talk to you soon!

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Use some Prime if you don't want to change water :-) Seriously, though I think you'll be fine at this point with a water change of 25%. Changing this much has never bothered one of my cycles. And signs of lethargy are a good first indication

that it's time to Prime or change some water, I believe.

Now the cyst/pustule thing sounds familiar; my Dory went through this, and it occured at spots where she was growing new scales. I did nothing except watch it, and it resolved itself in a few days. Just part of the process of the skin and scales healing, I think, Laurie P told me she'd seen this before, as well.

Hope things continue to go well!

Dave

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Guest SminiFish

I tested the water again tonight and ammonia is 0, nitrites are less than 0.25 but not quite at 0 yet (Yeah!), but my nitrAtes tonight were 80! :blink: Wow! Doesn't that seem high? Can nitrAtes be toxic to the fish when they are that high?

Dave, I just read your post about it being ok to do a water change. Tomorrow will be day 7 from when I added the second pouch of Biospira. I was debating tonight (before I read your post) if I should do a water change or not with nitrAtes being 80, but now that I have read your post, I think I will. Does this sound like the right thing to do with the nitrAtes being so high?

The white pustule/spot on Cajun's head has gotten considerably smaller! :krazy: This is good news, as I was a bit worried about this, thinking it was some type of parasite.

Looking forward to your reply.

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Susan,

Change the water :-) 25%. It'll be fine. :-)

Then, tomorrow, do another 25%. We'd like to see the nitrAtes under 40, and preferably lower, so you are doing a bit of a balancing act. In another week (2 weeks from the BioSpira dose) you can do larger water changes.

Glad to hear Cajun is doing better! We sometimes get too anxious, I think, of course this is normal human nature, but sometimes just waiting and having high water quality is the best thing. It is certainly possible to over-treat, and that is not a good thing either.

Sounds like things are beginning to settle in, and I expect your water will improve rapidly from here.

Dave

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Guest SminiFish

Good News! My nitries are finally at 0! :krazy: Ammonia is at 0, nitries are at 0.......

but now my nitrAtes are at 160! :thud

I did a 25% water change this morning. Uno was lying on the bottom of the tank, either head up or head down and not moving much, which really disturbed me. Whem I returned home this evening from work, he was still on the bottom of the tank. I am going to do another water change but what can I do now to get the nitrAtes back in line? NitrAtes that high can't be good for the fish (Am I right about this?).

If anyone has any suggestions on how to get the nitrAtes down it will be very much appreciated. Cajun is acting fine and swimming about. As I write this post, Uno has gotten up a couple times and has swam around a bit, but then he goes back to the bottom of the tank.

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Only good way I know to get nitrAtes down is via water changes. Do 50% ASAP, and do another 50% after 6-12 hours, this should get you to around 40-60 or so on your NitrAtes. You are correct, they need to come down, and soon. At this point the cycle is obviously established given your ammo and nitrItes, I personally would be doing water changes like crazy about every 6 hours to get those nitrAtes under 40.

Plants can get nitrAtes down, algae will eat them, and there are de-nitrAtors available - none of these are good solutions for GF - they eat the plants, the algae is ugly, and the de-nitrAte filers are finicky and expensive.

Even if you set your cycle back a bit, (and I do not think that will happen) we've got to get those nitrAtes down.

Dave

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Guest SminiFish

Thank you so much Dave for your quick reply! I was just getting my stuff set up for a water change and thought I'd check the posts before I started. Will get back to you ASAP.

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Guest SminiFish

Just finished up the water change and Uno seems to be much happier! :D

I will continue with these water changes until the NitrAtes get back down in the normal range. Thanks again Dave for all your help and support! I don't know what I'd do without your help. Uno and Cajun thank you too! :hi

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Guest SminiFish

Good News! Uno is doing much better is morning and is swimming around the tank! :fishtank:

I just got up and haven't had a chance to test the water yet, but plan to do this this morning and do another water change (obviously the nitrAtes have gone down but probably not enough to be in the normal range). I will keep you posted as to how Uno is doing. :goldfish:

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Hi Susan,

I hope Uno and Cajun are doing well tonight!

One thing we have to watch when our fish have been through this is any signs of recurrance. I know you are being extra vigilant!

Given my experience with my Dory and Nemo, I would suggest you consider a UV filter for your tank. It stops parasites dead, and seems to really help with algae as well. I got the 8-watt "mini" that Rick at goldfish connections sells for both my med tanks (30 and 40 gals). The advantage of buying from him is that he plumbs the whole thing ready to go - it's a snap to install. This should be an excellent size for your tank. If you are comfortable with teflon pipe tape and doing a little pre-cut plumbing, I would recommend the 15-watt (still a Current USA sterilzer, and same physical dimensions, just higher output bulb). Rick does not sell this one that I can tell, but Big Al's does. It is less plug-and-play, since you have to tape the pipe joints yourself, but I am running one now on my 58-gal main. Assembly took me about an hour vs 10 mins with the units from Rick.

I'm sure you are worn out and probably spent out, but I will say that I have found the UVs to be of GREAT help to my two as they recover. I am sure they will also be a preventative of future problems, as long as I keep my water pristine.

Just something that has worked for me that you may wish to consider :-)

Dave

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Guest SminiFish

Hi Dave,

Thank you for the advice on the UV sterilizers. I've looked at them before and have contemplated getting one for the tank. I will continue to check them out and will look at the ones at Goldfish Connection.

The nitrAtes were back up again today so I did another water change. Do they eventually go down once the cycle has stabilized? I am going to keep testing the water and doing water changes until I can get this thing under control. How are Dory and Nemo doing? I hope all is well with your guys. Talk to you soon!

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No, not without some help. Nitrates are the end-product of the cycle. The fact that you are getting nitrates means your ammonia is getting converted to nitrites which in turn are being converted to nitrates. There are no biobugs that live in an oxygen-rich environment that can complete the next step, which is to convert the nitrates to nitrogen gas. This is why denitritors are so complex - they have to have an oxygen-less atmosphere to grow the right bugs, and you have to feed them a sugar or an alcohol for this breakdown to occur.

Algae will eat nitrates - it is fertilizer, essentially, as will other plants in the tank. There are nitrate absoorbing materials that can go in your filter; I've just never found these to be very much help. Water changes and the use of larger tanks help also, as does making sure you don't overfeed and that you gravel vac regularly. But in a well-cycled tank, like you have now, the best indication of needing a water change is, unfortunately, nitrate levels.

By keeping the raw materials suchs as decaying food and waste down, you will produce less ammonia, and thus, in the end, less nitrates.

Dave

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Guest SminiFish

I'm not to sure how Uno is doing. Cajun seems to be doing fine. I've been continuing with the water changes everyday to keep the nitrAtes down, but in the morning, I have been finding Uno face down in a bunch of the plastic plants. Uno is blind, so sometimes I find him like this as he sometimes gets confused. Once I get him out of the plants, he is usually fine, but lately he has just been staying like this (face down, not moving). :(

After I do a water change, he seems to perk up a bit and swims around a little, but his head is slightly down. Then he goes right back to staying still with his head down. I don't know what to think. What could be going on with him? He seems to be more active at night (which has always been the case with him) and seems to be eating when I feed them at night (Still feeding Medi-Gold). What do you think is going on with him? I'm kind of getting concerned about this behavior. This is how he acted right before I started this thread. :( I haven't tested the water in the last couple days because the parameters have consistently been ammonia:0, nitrite: 0, and nitrAtes: above 40. Thank you for your help. Looking forward to your reply.

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Susan,

I've never had a blind fish, so I am not sure how much help I can be, except in general - perking up after a water change is often a sign that something is just not quite "right" with their water - could be pH, nitrAtes, temperature, anything. Have you ever had them on aquarium salt? Some fish get really used to it as well, and are stressed by it not being present.

I would definitely do full water chemistry tests at least once a day for a few days - let's see if that tells us anything.

On the other hand, with Uno having been sick, it just may be that he's still a bit stressed with all he has been through, and Cajun is just hardier. My Nemo is certainly more hardy than my Dory, for example. I wonder if it might be temperature - night time, lights off, temp drops? But that is, of course, just speculation on my part.

I don't remember - did you have them on medicated food when they were in the qt? 14 days of metromed might be a decent idea, just in case. Although medigold has a good reputation, metromed is batter if the problem is parasitic.

As I recall, your main is 30 gallons, right? Geeze that should be sufficient, but they are big boys.

Hopefully someone else can chime in here, because I am grasping at straws, I'm afraid.

Hope things look better as time passes!

Dave

Edited by parkerdt

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Guest SminiFish

Hi Dave,

Thank you for your reply. Uno stayed head down and quiet all through out the day and then tonight around 9pm, he started swimming around like nothing was wrong (go figure!). I'm still kind of concerned though about his behavior, it just isn't right. Do you think that since he is blind, he is confused about when it is daytime and when it is night? Uno only has one eye, and I don't believe he sees very well out of that eye because he has a large cataract in that eye. I would think, though, that even though he can't see well out of that eye, he would still be able to sense light? I just don't know. :idont

I'm still feeding them Medi-Gold, as Cajun's stools are still white and stringy. They don't like it as much as the Pro Gold, but have been eating it cause it is all I'm giving them. Do you think Uno may have some kind of swim bladder problem? He still had his head slightly down tonight when he was swimming about.

I haven't had any aquarium salt in their tank for a few weeks so I don't think they are reacting to not having any salt in the tank. I have a heater in the tank so the temp should be staying constant. The tank is a 30 gallon tank with both the Penguin 330 and the Eheim 2026 cannister going on it. I know this past month has been stressful on both Cajun and Uno so maybe they are just reacting to this? I will check in on them again tomorrow and give you an update. Talk to you soon!

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Guest SminiFish

Did another water change today and talked with Rick at Goldfish Connection, as Uno is still hanging out on the bottom of the tank. From what I told him, Rick thinks maybe Uno has flukes, so I ordered some Prazipro? (can't remember the name) from him to treat the tank. Hopefully this will help. I had added in some live plants to the tank when all of this stuff happened because my LFS thought Uno was constipated. Rick was saying that live plants can harbor parasites, so he believes Uno may be infected. I'll give it a try and see what happens. Rick said this treatment won't hurt the tank or the cycle, and even if Uno doesn't have flukes, the med still won't hurt him. I'll keep you posted as to what happens.

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Poor Uno - Glad you got some expert help here! You may recall I was a little concerned about parasites, after what I went through with Dory and Nemo. A UV sterilizer might help control this in the future as well, I use Rick's units on my tanks, now.

Keep us informed, and good luck!

Dave

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