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parkerdt

Sick Common?

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Gonna try the garlic tonight, I could not get her to eat this morning, either. And even though she let me hold her, she's gotten wise to the routine and would not open her mouth. After a little while she got irritated at me for holding her - trust me she is still quite strong - and dang near flipped herself out of the tank - sheesh.

I think the real issue here is she has no clue that stuff that sinks is food. So I may also try grinding up some metromed so it floats (or at least sinks less slowly) and see if she'll eat off the surface.

Dave

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Dave that isnt' a good idea. She'll learn to eat off the bottom. Grinding up the food will make the meds less affective not to mention she really shouldn't be eating off the top.

What you can do is drop it in front of her and then put your hand in the tank to guide her. Mine hate my hands at the top and go directly to the bottom to eat when I do that.

Just a suggestion.

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Laurie I've tried dropping them right in front of her face - no joy. Unfortunately, she's always eaten flake food off the top of the water. While I now know this is not a good thing, it is unfortunately where we are.

Seems to me I've got to get her to eat something, somehow, to even have a shot at this working. So yes, I am grasping at straws, here, and open to any suggestions. I was thinking of grinding one or two up to let her get the taste and figure out that it was food. It took Nemo a while (even tho he is much more of a forager) to figure that out. Now, he'll snatch a pellet before it hits bottom if he sees it. They sink right by Dory's eyes totally ignored. Frustrating, because otherwise she seems to be doing better than I feared. Maybe she's given up; who knows?

Dave

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I would continue to hold her and push it in. When I first had to do this with my oranda with dropsy, it took the better part of a day forcing her every hour before she caught on.

You could try doing it every hour see if you make head way.

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Unfortunately, I'm not at home during the day and work is an hour and a half away. But I will try several times tonight.

Dave

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Yeah that isn't possible is it.....

Do the best you can, even if you can get some in before you leave for work.

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Some good news - the Kent Extreme Garlic worked! I soaked the food in it as recommended in the packaging, and I got Dory to eat 4 sticks of metromed., by hand. She's starting to get used to being held, I think, but tring more to get away when she sees me coming for her. I also saw poop in her tank for the first time today - looked relatively normal in color, but small in amount. She's also acting more like herself - never been a hugely active fish (compared to Nemo anyway) and today, instead of hanging out near the filter outlet, at the top, she's down near the bottom swimming around. Her eyes were actually following the food unlike last night. Still quite bloated, no real change there. Gonna do her nightly water change after I finish this, her tank is a nice cloudy white - almost like someone dumped milk in it.

The garlic, btw, is claimed to help boost immune systems. I've personally never had a sick fish that would not eat after a garlic treatment, and I use it occasionally just in case the "immune system booster" claim is accurate. In any case, all my saltwater fish love it, and apparently Dory does too.

While I am here, my main tank has me stumped. Did a complete chemistry on it

(apart from hardness kits which I do not yet have) with both strips and liquid tests

Same results from both:

pH 7.2

Ammonia 2

Nitrites 0

Nitrates 10

It has been, what - 6 days since all this started, where the heck is my Nitrite spike??? Nemo continues to be fine, thanks to the Prime, and he's eating 6 sticks of metromed 2x a day.

Dave

Edited by parkerdt

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I was wrong - so busy trying to get her to eat that I did not do a good observation - Yesterday her head to gills was less swollen, and today her tail from her anus back is almost back to normal size - amazing difference - seems she's shrinking from both ends towards the middle.. Hard to notice her butt when you're holding her with head facing you...

With the water low, I got her to eat two more metromed sticks without garlic. And wonder of wonders, we observed her eat one (possibly two, can't be sure) from the bottom while we were refilling. Re-salted, re-primed, re-Maracyn2, water was buffered before adding this time. Tank still quite cloudy, but dang it, she ate!

Dave

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Dave that is good to hear!!! Woohoo for the garlic route.

Ok, now with the maracyn in there that messes with the params so you are going to have to do a water change and test daily. Of course adding back the salt and meds you change out of the water.

Even though Prime is in there I would like to see the ammonia alot lower. With nitrates still good, 0 for the ammonia is a workable task.

but you are right, eating is a good thing.

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Sorry I know this is confusing - imagine my confusion with stuff going on in two tanks, and the other 4 saltwater ones begging for attention.

Dory - Dropsy - med tank - ammonia is zero.

Nemo - seemingly healthy - main tank - had the huge amonia spike that is starting to get under control.

Main tank on at least a mini-cycle from the overfeeding.

Med tank daily water change of about 60% keeping params in check since I KNOW there is no biofilter there.

BTW - the 20 gal for heating/storing mixing water is working out great - I've drawn a line on the med tank for 15 gals shy of full, so we can now pump out water to the line, and then pump in water from the 20 gal. LOTS easier than doing it a 2.2 gal jug at a time.

Dave

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And as to the garlic, I'm a confirmed believer for it's use in marine tanks (even some marine food comes garlic enhanced, now), and it got Dory to eat, so I'm liking the little bit of empirical evidence I have in a goldie tank.

I am hoping that now that she knows these strange sticks I keep poking at her are food, this will go easier for both of us as time progresses.

How much should she be eating? With Nemo, it's pretty easy to feed him all he'll eat in 2 mins - about 6 or 7 metromed sticks. Normally, Dory is a tad smaller than Nemo, but of course, she's in sumo mode still... I can confirm getting 6 sticks into her tonight, 4 with garlic, two without. We'll have another go in the morning before work.

thanks,

Dave

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Sorry DAve, my bad.

But still I would hate to see Nemo come down with an illness because of ammonia that high. The Prime is good, but you still need to get that under control asap.

Try and stay focused, with all those tanks you have to be running in circles!! But you are doing Great!!!!

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Doing daily 15 gal changes for Nemo as well, Laurie, making water as fast as I can :-) We'll get him there, I'm just concerned about the cycle - I do suppose it is possible the bacteria for Nitrites are in better shape in my bio filter since we caught the ammonia spike before it was likely that those bacteria could multiply enough to deal with it....

And Amen to him not getting sick, too. I am about at the limit of what I can handle... My marine tanks are 120 gal, 70 gal and 58 gal, and these need changes, too, Dory and Nemo are getting 50% of my daily capacity for making decent water. And I will NOT use this cr*p that passes for tapwater here even for my turtles....

Dave

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Dory was much perkier this morning, swimming around in the middle of the water column, going over to the side where she can see Nemo, and the two of them doing a swim dance up and down the sides of their respective tanks. It was cute to watch! Her equilibrium and energy levels are definitely better.

She did not want to be caught this morning, but I managed it after some coaxing, and got her to eat 3 metromed sticks. She was actually quite calm in my hand, and "took" the food much more easily than yesterday. She is showing a little interest in the food on the bottom which is a good thing; if she continues to get faster and stronger, I will not be able to catch her many more times.

Dave

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Good to hear she is fighting back.......usually a good sign.

I bet you are fit to be tied over the water. A tough spot to be in, wish I could help more with it.

Have you been able to take Daryl's suggestions for "tweaking" more water out?

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Unfortunately not, Laurie. My plumbing is hard wired into the RO/DI machine, and not easily changeable without taking out a wall. Should be able to get a full 60 gallons for the next 3 days though, since I'll be home to monitor the reservoir - at least I know now I need to get a float valve for it, and maybe a larger holding tank if I can find one that will fit in the space I have. None of those are short-term remedies, tho. In a DIRE emergency I could use tap - but my phosphates are off the scale and quick to grow algae. I do think the turtles will be getting tap this weekend; they are the hardiest, and go through so much water from evaporation that algae doesn't have much of a chance for a foothold in their tanks. Geeze now that I add it all up, I have 458 gallons worth of water circulating in tanks around the house.

We'll see how Dory's tank measures tonight - was all zeros this morning, so if the cloudiness (bacteria bloom???) is no worse, I may give Nemo all 30 gals. today.

If worse comes to worse, I can buy prepackaged seawater, but it is rather pricey - $16 for a 4-gal jug, and I need probably 60 gallons of it this weekend. Hopefully Nemo's tank will settle down as well, although I am still puzzled at the lack on any nitrites 6 days after an ammonia spike...

Dave

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Oh a quick question - last dose of Maracyn-2 is tonight, so I put carbon in my filter tomorrow night at regular med dosing time, correct? If so, that might be another opportunity to "steal" some water while the carbon does it's job, assuming all the other params are OK of course...

thanks,

Dave

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Wow that is a prediciment isn't it? I don't envy you, boy you sure are doing all you can do and that will just have to do.

I wish you the best with it, just let us know what is going on.

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OK, Dory is measuring .25 ammonia so can't skip her change.

Main is

Ammonia 2

Nitrites 0

Nitrates 5

I wish I understood what the heck was going on in this tank....

Off to feed Dory and start water changes, will report back later.

thanks!

Dave

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Dave is the main tank overstocked? (I know I keep asking you to go over it again, but with so many I don't want to make a mistake).

Maybe feed the fish in this tank lightly and I mean lightly. Even a good 2 day fast would be ideal (if they aren't on med food). This will lighten the bio load, see if that helps.

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1 6" common in a 70 gal. I do not think that is overstocked. ;-) And thanks for hanging in - I know you have a lot to deal with here, Laurie.

Nemo is the only one in this tank and he is on med food.

Dave

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I am less encouraged tonight. Dory would not eat, and as I thought, was tougher to catch and hold. I've tried to be as gentle as possible, but with her pineconing, holding her is, for lack of a better term, "brusing" her under her scales. Still I held her through our feeding and though I was getting her to eat when all of a sudden she spit out 3 sticks that took me half an hour to get into her mouth. So, she's going to have to learn to eat; the handfeeding thing is, now, I think causing more harm than good. She's perfectly able to forage if she will, I've seen her nose down foraging at the rocks. So food wise it is up to her at this point. I am not going to squeeze her to death!

If this eating situation does not improve, I think we will be having a euthanasia discussion in a few days.

This is the med tank, set up last Saturday, some media from the main filter, and some gravel, but otherwise uncycled. It is a milky color, even after the water changes. I've re-salted and re-maracyn-2'd and buffered the water in the mixing tank before adding it. I am not going to add any Prime tonight - ammonia is showing zero. 15 gals is about a 60% change in a 30 gal tank with gravel.

Now, off to deal with Mr. Nemo in the main tank...

Thanks,

Dave

Dave

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I used every last drop of water we could make and we managed to change 31 gals in the main tank (Nemo). Only downside is that we were not able to get all the water to temp, and dropped the main tank from 76 to 78.8 degrees. In the med tank, I do try and mach in 1/10ths of a degree on changes. The ammonia badge is a nice yellow, indicating safe, I do not have the energy tonight to do a complete test - will do so tomorrow morning.

After drawing 31 gals, I thought the tank looked a little low; so I measured it and consulted the Oceanic site. The main tank is actually a 58 gallon - only difference in it and the 70 is 3" in height. So I went and measured my reef tank to be sure, and indeed, I have a 70 reef and a 58 fresh. So, drop my total gallonage by 12 - still what 466 gallons? Sheesh I have too many tanks. And I have a 58 gallon reef tank sitting here ready to fill so I can start it cycling to replace my 39 reef that uses a cannister - I do not think cannisters work well AT ALL for reefs, and the new one will have an in-stand wet/dry sump set up as a refugium. Salt water is so much easier - the live rock in the tank hosts the biobugs, and no bio media is needed in the filter.

In the middle of all of this, my RO/DI unit's DI cartridge turned bright purple - time to change it. I have spares ready to go, but I have to discard the first 10 gals it makes. Tomorrow is going to be light on water changes, and I will be purchasing seawater this weekend. Time to upgrade to a 100 gallon per day RO/DI, I think, or maybe a Kold Steril unit. Again, in the future.

I do have to say it is nice not to smell Prime in overabundance in the water for a few minutes, but thank goodness for it - it has done a WONDERFUL job for Dory, Nemo and me.

Dory is swimming well in the med tank, Nemo is eating well, looks normal and is all over the place. Time for lights out for all. Sorry for rambling.

Dave

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Dave all I can say is keep at it!!! You are doing great. All this takes time and hopefully Dory comes around, but you are doing all you can for now.

I have to give you your due, I don't know how well I would be handling all of what you are doing.................applause to you!!!

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Dory is not as active today, but she does seem to be doing some foraging. I wonder if the redness under her scales that I whought was bruising is not more likely septicemia. Makes me wonder whether I should continue the Maracyn-2 beyond today's 5th day. And whether I should cut back some on her Epsom salts - she's at 1/4 tsp. per 10 gals, i.e. a double dose.

I'm planning to load up her filter with new floss and some carbon tonight during her water change unless someone tells me to stick with the Maracyn-2....

thanks,

Dave

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