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Sick Common?


parkerdt

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Dave your plan sounds good. Yeah overfeeding can lead to problems.

With the water changes, you'll have to write everything down and replace the salt and meds you change out with the water.

Maraycn usually plays havoc with the cycle so be prepared for that. Test daily.

I think you got it under control, now just doing it and patience........time will tell.

Cycle is a good product but if you can find Biospira is better. It can be "elusive" though.

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Thanks, Laurie,

Dory seems much more at ease in the med tank. Swimming well, moving a good deal more. If all this doesn't help, at least she is seemingly more comfortable.

I find that Maracyn-2 plays more havoc with the cycle than regular Maracyn (at least in salt water) , but neither are great for the beneficial bacteria. Making enough RO/DI water for two largish cycling tanks is going to be the problem - to do 25% in each I'm going to be changing 25 gals a day for awhile - fortunately my RO/DI unit can make 60 gals/day. I can't easily do 50% changes, since my resovoir only holds 35 gals. And I dare not use tap water - measures nitrates of 80 and phosphates off the scale coming out of my tap. Talk about algae - no let's not.

I replaced the ammonia badge in the main tank and got one for the new tank - not all that accurate but an easy visual aide. Apparently one that needs to be replaced more frequently than yearly, too. I suppose I'm due a nitrite spike in the main tank, now, in about 3-4 days, so I'm going to try and find some Biospira, and if unsuccessful, continue with Cycle.

Two cycling tanks - ought to be a fun week - at least I have a good supply of Prime. Hopefully the Cycle will kick in and help out now that the bioload is decreased (no more overfeeding) and spread (100 gals for the two fish, in separate tanks). I'd really like to do a 100% change in Nemo's tank, and get the undergravel filter out in the process, but this is going to have to wait, since I do not have another tank available.

What I had planned, since Maracyn-2 is a once-a-day, is to do water changes at night when I get home. I use containers of known size to haul water up from the basement, so replacing the salt should be no problem - getting that much water up to temp will be an issue. Once the water change is done, next dose of M2 goes in.

Does this seem OK?

thanks again!

Dave

Dave

Edited by parkerdt
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Nemo seems quite freaked out that Dory is in an adjacent tank - swimming back and forth on that side and staring at her. These two have been constant companions and good buds since they were fry.

She is definitely more at ease. moving more effortlessly, not staying near the bottom. Able to easily stay in a weak flow area, tho she is exploring her new digs. Hopefully with the salt the swelling should start to subside some? She's still amazingly bloated. I do realize it has only been a few hours....

What should I be most concerned with at this point? Water Chemistry?

Dave

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Dave your plan sounds good.

Yeah I don't envy your week.

Poor babies I am sure it is hard for them to be seperate, but if they can see each other that is good.

The swelling if it is continueing after 24 hours of the first dose of epsom you can raise it one more round of the same dose, but I wouldn't go more than that.

But truthfully all points are a major concern now. The water, salt, meds and the food.

How I got thru it was step by step, doing one thing at a time.

You will feel as you are on a "ferris wheel" and they won't stop to let you off.

Hopefully within a couple days there will be an improvement.

We shall see, hang in there.

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OK, they both had some peas this morning, although I can't really say they rushed to eat them, they did eat; I gave Dory 4 and Nemo 6. I pierced the outer shell and squeezed out the meat of the pea, then discarded the skin. They seem to cope with this just fine since the meat is so soft.

Ammonia in the main tank shows down a bit, and in the med about the same, although lower than the main.

Dory looks about the same, still active and swimming well but quite bloated and bristled still. Of course, it's not even been 24 hours. This morning she was at 78 degrees, and should be 79 by the evening (thank goodness for programmable controllers, since I have to work today) - tonight I will raise her to 80. Gonna keep the main at 76 for now.

I will replace the salt from this evening's water change, then add another 3/4 teaspoon for her 30 gals - and dose the second day of Maracyn-2.

Med food will hopefully be here on Tuesday.

Thanks,

Dave

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Right on track Dave. Wtih dropsy it is often a while before you see real improvement. But as long as the fish isn't worse that is progress.

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Thanks Laurie,

Just heard from Rick, med food has shipped via overnight air. Can you tell me how to figure out how much of it to feed them?

Given our discussion of undergravel filters, and the known overfeeding in the main tank, I'm wondering if the undergravel has trapped a bunch of decaying food matter and is causing my spikes. I think I'm going to hedge my bets on this, esp since I've got to figure a way to do water changes at 80 degrees. I'm gonna stop on the way home and buy a 15 gal tank, stick a heater and powerhead in it, and use it to mix replacement water with either the Kent RO right or Seachem Neutral Buffer. The Neutral Buffer is a lot cheaper when doing this much water changing....

If the readings in the main tank don't substantially improve rather quickly with water changes and the reduced loads, I'll use the 15 as a temporary home for Nemo, yank the undergravel, clean the tank bottom and refill - essentially a 100% water change. I know I've got at least SOME bio activity in my filter or I'd have no nitrates - so I'll shut the cannister off during the process.

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Dave a rubbermaid container would do inplace of another tank to hold water. And it would save money.

Could very well be all that decaying material. YUCK.

Even use the rubbermaid as a tank, others do it all the time.

Keep on it, you are doing really well!!!

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Hi,DAve. I am going to stick my nosy nose in here, too.

Depending on how much volume is in your holding tank you may be able to coax more RO water from your filter if you plumb in a bit of warm/hot water into the intake. The thing works more efficiantly at warmer temps. I have raised my capasity from 40 gpd to more than 75gpd by plumbing in a hot water feed line.

I also found or bought several large blue plastic 5 gallon bottles. They sell them at the grocery store - by the RO dispenser. I found some that did not have lids so they gave them to me. I draw water and fill those - that way I can stash the extra 30 gallons of water I will need each day for water changes - and the RO tank is free to fill again. They work pretty well! I can seal them and pour them easily - more easily than dipping from a tub.

Next - as I understand it, Kent's RO Right is GREAT for the general hardness - but lacks what is needed in the carbonate hardness - the buffer. When I use just the RO Right or Marc Weiss's RO-Vital, I need to add an extra buffer to the mix to properly reconstitute the water. I use Kent's pH Stable for Freshwater - or NutraFin puts out a liquid one called pHStabilizer kH Booster that works well, too.

(The Kent goes further for the money)

Cycling is no fun - that is for sure. I seeded a tank with well "cooked" media and yet STILL find my tank at .50 nitrites every day. Judicious water changes and a heavy hand with the Prime will do the trick.

I hope you get that thing cycled soon. :)

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Thanks Daryl -

Unfortunately, I'm plumbed hard into cold water on the hard side of my water softener - for reef tanks, you do not want the water to go through a softener - and of course, my hot water is on the softened side. I have a bunch of 2.5 gal just that I do use as you've described, and for hauling the water upstairs. My reservoir will hold 42 gallons, I think (Rubbermade Brute, large size).

Good news is the ammonia is down again today in both tanks so the bio filter is not completely inactive. No nitrites yet, so I am skipping tonight's change but dosing with Prime. This will give me a chance to get ahead on the water front, I did get a 20 gal on the way home and am going to have it mixing water here soon.

My wife says Dory is less bloated tonight - I don't really see it, but her scales are very definitely less bristly. She has lost a few scales in some patches, however. I did a second dose of Epsom salts (so she's now at the max, 1/4 tsp per 5 gal), and the second Maracyn 2 treatment. She ate her peas; med food will be here tomorrow.

Nemo is looking a lot better and has his appetite back big time. I'm going to dose again tomorrow with Cycle as well, per their recommendations.

Thanks for the help and suggestions, please keep them coming! I'm trying the best I can here, and the help is mucho appreciated!

Dave

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Oh as for the buffer - I've gotten some Seachem Neutral Buffer, which does claim to provide calcium hardness to buffer pH at 7.0. Will definitely use it going forward. Do I also need to use the R/O Right with this buffer? Not sure...

thanks,

Dave

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Sory - the product is called Neutral Regulator - supposed to adjust pH to 7.0 and remove chlorine, cholramine and ammonia. It is a phosphate buffer that my LFS uses and swears by....

It has been a long time since I took chemistry, but if I understand all of this the Kent's pH Stable for Freshwater might be a better product to use in addition to the RO Right.

But I've buffered my next batch of water change water (heating and airing in the 20 gal) with this Neutral Regulator since it is all I have atm.

Dory is playing her favorite game tonight - swimming full-bore into the discharge of the filter then riding the wave back and doing it again. I hope se's doing it because she wants to...

Can/should I run any light at all on her tank? I have left it off so far.

Dave

Edited by parkerdt
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Did some more reading on the Seachem Neutral Regulator product, it claims to adjust pH to neutral 7.0 from either low or high. Softens water by precipitating calcium and magnesium while removing chlorine, chloramine and ammonia.

To raise pH above 7.0 use with Alkaline Regulator (which of course I do not have - sheesh). the products are supposed to stabilize a freshwater environment.

I'm wondering if I was fed a load of BS by the LFS, now.

Sounds like the Kent pH stable for freshwater does all this - gonna go to the Kent site now.

Ok the Kent product is Carbonic acid - not exactly what I want to have around small kids....

Dave

Edited by parkerdt
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Dave a rubbermaid container would do inplace of another tank to hold water.  And it would save money.

Could very well be all that decaying material.  YUCK.

Even use the rubbermaid as a tank, others do it all the time. 

Keep on it, you are doing really well!!!

488345[/snapback]

Laurie,

I considered the rubbermaid, but went with a 20 gal - it and a glass top and light (which I don't need) were less than $75. I figure when this ordeal is resolved, I can use that tank as a holding tank for my turtles (2 red-eared sliders) when I clean their tanks. They now have to make do in a 10 gal which is too small for the larger turtle. Plus my wife thinks rubbermaids look yucky in the living room, and the dogs think they are their for them to play in. Just easier to go with a tank on a stand ;-)

thanks!

Dave

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I do not know ANYTHING about reef tanks, so pardon my question, but what purpose does it serve to filter hard water or soft water for the reef tank?

As I understand it, a RO filter membrane will remove all the dissolved minerals and such contained in the water. It will take water that is 300+general hardness - full of iron, calcium, magnesium, etc. and remove these by filtering them out via the RO membrane and sending them out with the waste water. The softened water, containing excess sodium ions, will also be processed to the same TDS (total dissolved solids) reading. Mine takes the water to between 4-6 ppm. The softened water is around 185 TDS and the well water is around 480tds.

Soduim is a very easy thing to wash away in the waste water. It is fully filtered from the RO. CAlcium, particularly, along with iron and magnesium to a lesser degree, is a VERY difficult, sticky, messy component to wash away. It has a "habit" of sticking and plugging up the RO membrane - thus ending its useful life prematurely.

For the RO/DI systems we have at work, the specs read that they should have a good water softener plumbed in prior to the RO membrane. The water should go through the softener - removing the majority of calcium, magnesium, iron, etc. Then it should pass though at least one carbon filter, then through the RO membrane and back out through at least one more carbon filter. This will still create the same quality of water you were getting by passing the original "hard" water directly through the filter, but will have the added benefit that the majority of the "sticky" solids have already been removed. The RO membrane does not have to do this - and it does not get stuck up and plugged by them.

Warmer water will pass through the membrane faster - createing more water per hour. By adding in a small hot water feed, you can raise your feed temp. and consequently raise your gpd.

I can just see your dogs playing in the tubs....

"Honey - why is there dog hair floating in my fish wate?".... :lol: (I get cat hair!)

I hope every fish and dog and wife are all doing well with the new setup! :)

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HI Daryl.

To be honest, I do not know what the effects of using water-softened water are long-term in a reef tank. There is an amazingly long thread over on wetwebmedia.com on different water prep techniques, and a lot of discussion centers around just this issue when I was setting my system up. Thier experts strongly advised against using water from the water softener, so I did as they recommended, and all has been fine in my reef tanks. I'm inclined to agree that it would be easier on the membrane to use softened water - my input water is 185 TDS tho and 15 grains of hardness, so not quite as bad as your well. It coes out of the RO stage at about 6 TDS and out of the DI stage at 0 TDS. Of course then this must be bufferd to pH 8.3 and salted with a quite specific salt blend. The goal of course, is to recreate natural seawater as much as humanly possible. So, we're really after lab-grade water as a known starting point. Most of the finikiness is more beneficial to the corals and other inverts than it is of practical value to the fish. On the other hand, some of these fish sell for well over a thousand dollars, and corals are relatively inexpensive unless you go with super rare stuff...

So, to sum up a long story; I did the same with my reefs as I'm trying to do here with my goldfish - follow the advice of the experts unless I have specific knowledge to do otherwise. :-)

Dave

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Brief status update - ammonia continues to come down in the main tank. Going to start monitoring more closely for nitrites now - went and got a real liquid-based test kit instead of the strips for this critical period. Both fish ate a few peas this morning, and Dory, after swimming down and eating hers was right back up swimming upstream against the flow. Her swelling is not significantly different, but her color is looking much better, and she is quite clearly more active. My wife is going to start med food as soon as it arrives this morning, so I did not give them many peas. Actually, she just called, the metromed is here!

Tonight is water change night gonna do 15 gals in the 30 gal med tank for Dory, and 20 gals in the main 70 gal tank for Nemo.

Dave

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Sorry for starting a new topic, but need help right now. Dory (my common who is being treated for dropsy) will not eat her metromed, and ignored most of her peas as well this morning. She's still quite active, but gulping water more today.

What now?

thanks,

Dave

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When was the last time that she ate?

I would continue to offer the metromeds and hopefully she will start to eat. When feeding medicated food, you shouldn't feed anything else, just the medicated food. Perhaps if you only feed the metromed, she will eat it since she will be hungry. Also, if you can get her to eat it, you should feed several small meals a day, rather than one big one.

Please post on whether she eats tomorrow a.m. or not

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Hi DAve, I merged your threads. It is best to have all the info together that way everyone knows what is going on.

Val is right, it is not good to feed anything else

You may have to force feed her a bit, until she gets the hang of it.

What you do, is gently hold her with one hand and place the pellet in her mouth. She may spit it out, so be ready. Eventually she should eat it.

Pick a pellet easy for her to swallow, so she can get the "taste" for it.......most fish love it.

edit.....

Sorry, and stay at it. What you are doing is great, it just takes time. But getting her to eat is crutial.

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I should be more clear, sorry - she had peas for breakfast this morning - and ate about 3 of them. Then nothing until this evening when I tried the metromed. I did try holding her and yes, she spit it out. About 4 times.... Never did get her to take one.

So, we went ahead with her water change - 15 gals - little more than 50% because of the gravel, resalted, re-Primed, re-Cycled, and day three of Maracyn-2.

She was quite willing to swim up to my hand, but this is the first time I've ever handled her - she took it quite easily and only struggled a little. She's still swimming well just gulping a lot.

thanks for merging the threads - just wated to make sure someone saw what was going on. I have removed the remains of the peas and will try the metromed again in the AM. Nemo, of course, snarfs the stuff down. Off to do his water change - will check back again before bedtime.

Dave

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It's not all bad news - just finished the water change in the main tank - ammonia continues to decline rapidly, and of course the water change helped. Been slowly using the pH neutral buffer; 1/4 recommended dose last night, and another 1/4 tonight - pH is approaching 7 slowly - dang decaying food.... Nemo is looking good and readily ate his metromed. I'd say about 6 sticks - is this enough for a 6" common? I sure don't want to overfeed him! Again added RO Right along with the buffer, and dosed Cycle at the weekly maintenance level since I cannot find Biospira locally yet.

Dory, on inspection actually LOOKS a lot better. Swelling has receeded from her head towards her tail, her gill area no longer swollen very much. Her left side scales are almost laying down - they bristled before the right side. The color in her scales is much closer to normal, no red patches or white pearly scales. She does not seem to have lost any more scales today. Again, she's quite active, just not eating her metromed - but she's never eaten sinking food in her life up until the peas the last few days - a definite surface feeder.

For my marine fish who will not eat, I have Kent Garlic Extreme, and soaking their food in this makes it pretty irresistable. What do you all say about trying this with

Dory if I cannot get her to eat tomorrow?

Off to do a water change in a reef tank that is overdue - thank you all SO MUCH!

Dave

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I have heard that some goldies really like the garlic! Perhaps that is something really good.

I am very interested to know how it goes - I do not think I have heard of anyone trying that before. It could be a great new idea! :)

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