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parkerdt

Sick Common?

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Hi,

I have a pair of two year old commons in a 70 gal, one is a regular carnival, I think, and the other has a fantail. In the last week, the fantail has, for lack of a better word, become "bloated" - from her gills back she looks really fat, but her head is not affected. The other one looks fine. She is swimming fine, and eating and acting normally. Comments, please?

thanks,

Dave

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Hi DAve, I am going to move your thread to the diagnosis area. There is a box of questions in red we need you to answer.

Hopefully we can get you some help.

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OK, here goes:

Ammonia 0 (test kit reads .25, but it does this consistently even for new water)

nitrite 0

nitrate 10

ph 7.2

I don't use tap water - use RO/DI - it is usually 7.0 in the collection barrel

70 gal - 3 months, used gravel, water and filter media from old 30 gal tank 1 year old, plus new water to fill.

Fluval 404, sponges, filter floss, activated carbon, 2 layers of bio media, media came over from old tank, washed only in used tank water. Undergravel full tank with 2 maxijet 900s.

every 2 weeks 25% change

2, about 6" each

Kent RO Right to specification for Goldfish water

No meds

No new fish

flakes - Tetrafin goldfish - recently with some Aquarium Adventures private label

no unsual findings apart from a few different colored scales

behaving normally - just looks bloated

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Ok, I assume that the RO water has some ammonia in it for it to read new as 0.25?

Since other than that (if you use a good water conditioner it shouldn't be a problem) I would recommend fasting them for 2 days and then follow that with 2 days of peas.

You can use frozen peas, just thaw them and deshell them. Then cut them into bite size pieces.

You could possibly be overfeeding them. So having a regular routine of fasting and using peas as a laxative is the way to go.

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My total dissolved solids read zero, and I believe the ammonia is zero as well - this particular Red Sea test kit is known among reefers for always reading .25, so I'm not really concerned about that part - The stick on ammonia badge is at zero,

I do have some Prime for emergency use in my reef tanks, if you think this would be beneficial.

The fish looks like this one :

http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...pe=post&id=8277

obviously without the spots, and mine is orange tho, but the same head/body look.

Frozen peas? Like just plain frozen green peas from Kroger?

thanks,

Dave

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Yep those would be the peas.

I would use the Prime, it is a very good conditioner in my opinion as well as other experts.

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OK, I have used the Prime. I agree it is a good conditioner, I would just prefer not to have to treat stuff in general, but a water change tonight is out - too late.

I do have a new barrel of RO/DI water running for the weekend change.

I will fast them Friday and Saturday, and feed peas on Sunday, my suspicion is that these guys are big enough to tackle peas whole, but we'll see - they have never been fed anything but flake, and occasional brine shrimp.

Are you thinking constipation? If so, from the pics I've seen I think I'd agree, but I am obviously not an expert. How often would you do the fast/purge routine?

thanks much,

Dave

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Dave it could be constipation, it could be other things as well.

Do you know if they are males or females?

If females you could have egg problems causing this.

Posting a pic might help us better. You can use a free account with photobucket to link us.

Usually a weekly day of fasting is recommended for fish who have either constipation problems or SBD probs.

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Dave it could be constipation, it could be other things as well. 

Do you know if they are males or females? 

If females you could have egg problems causing this. 

Posting a pic might help us better.  You can use a free account with photobucket to link us. 

Usually a weekly day of fasting is recommended for fish who have either constipation problems or SBD probs.

486218[/snapback]

I will try and post a pic tomorrow. I have no idea, really, of their gender, sorry. And this is a first-time occurance in a two-year old fish. Never had the problem before, or any other problem, for that matter. So, I guess we'll see :-)

thanks for all the help!

Dave

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Day 2 of fasting, she seems about the same. Here is a pic, I hope. I have goten frozen peas for tomorrow...

thanks,

Dave

dory.jpg

Edited by parkerdt

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Dave that fish does look very swollen. ARe it's scales sticking out at all? It looks that way up by it's gills.

I would fast another day. Other than bloated the fish is acting ok right?

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Yes, the scales are protruding slightly. She's not as active as usual or even as much as two days ago. Prefers to stay mostly near the bottom, and is doing more gulping of water than usual. But when she does swim, she doesn't seem to have any issues. But definitely less active than before the onset, or even two days ago.

Her tankmate is not really pleased not being fed, but we'll go another day if that is best. I'm starting to get really worried here....

I got fresh snap peas and also frozen shelled ones since I couldn't find any frozen in the shell. Do I cook these before feeding? Any other prep?

thanks,

Dave

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Dave the pineconing conserns me. This could be the start of Dropsy. Very deadly condition if not acted upon quickly.

Do you have a hospital tank? If so I would seperate the fish.

If you don't you're gonna have to treat the main tank and the other fish. (going to be very costly and difficult).

I will let you read up on dropsy, but know that Koko and I have both pulled our fish thru this, so it can be done.

The first thing to do is raise the water temp to 80F. Do this slowly only 2 degrees an hour.

Next you will need epsom salts to help with the swelling.

The dose is 1/8 tsp per 5 gallons of water. Only add it once.

(whatever water changes you do you will have to calculate and add that much salt back.......I find it helpful to write everything down with this).

You will also need to get Maracyn 2 and start a full treatment with that. You'll have to remove the carbon out of the filter so that it doesn't pull the meds out of the water.

The M2 treatment will take about 5 days (if I recall right).

Then you will run the carbon 24 hours pulling the med out of the water. And also giving the fish a break.

Finally you will run a full treatment of Maracyn 1, or reg. Maracyn. Once again remove the carbon.

During this whole treatment a medicated food should be given to the fish. You can order it onling at goldfish connection. If you let Rick know you are treating for Dropsy he can hurry the food to you. It is called Metromed.

The metromed should be fed a full 21 days, nothing else. I can get to how much later.

I will let this soak in and wait for your reply.

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I figured that this was going to be the case, and I'm setting up a 30 gal hospital right now. Is this contagious? If so I might just treat the main.... Other fish shows no symptoms tho....

I plan to move the filter from the main over to the med tank after removing the carbon, and 1/2 the bio media. I'll use a new 404 on the main tank with the remainder of the old bio media and some new carbon.

I plan to move at least several big scoops of gravel from the main tain to the med tank, and use about 40% old water - need to do a water change tomorrow in the main anyway. I will run the main up to 75 tonight (it's usually about 73).

I need to get freshwater Maracyn and Maracyn 2, and the aquarium salts, and order the medicated food. I will get an extra large airstone for the med tank too.

It will be late tomorrow I suspect before this is all done.

thanks,

Dave

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All I see on Rick's site is Medi-Gold, and this is what I've ordered. Please let me know if I need something different, I didn't see the Metromed?

Dave

And remember, I am a reefkeeper. I have treated fish before. I'm not about to start panicking. ;-) But this will be a first with goldfish, and I do appreciate and need the help.

Dave

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Dave it is good to know you have some background with this sort of thing. Sorry if I am talking to you like a "newbie". ;) Please excuse this again if it happens, I am just so use to walking thru step by step I may do it again............... :D

The Medigold is a good food, however I do prefer Metromed with Dropsy. There should be a number to call, Rick is so helpful and a wealth of knowledge.

Keep me updated.

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OK, I have both on order. I have a busy workday Monday, and doubt I will get a chance to call. I asked them to ship overnight, so hopefully both foods will be here on Tuesday.

The hospital tank is set up, undergravel filter running. Should pull out all the gravel sludge overnight. Used 40% of the old tank water. Dory did start doing a LOT more swimming after the water change. I have the main tank at 75 degrees now. I have electronic controllers on both tanks, so slowly raising temps is not a problem.

Tomorrow I will install the cannister filtration and air stone, and move some additional gravel as a "bio seed" from the main tank. I've wanted to get some of that out anyway, they mouth it too much and I want to put down a layer of river rock on top instead. Should I add additional bacterial starter agents like CYCLE?

And I have the RO/DI machine running overtime for water changes in both tanks this week. Of course, this is also my salt water week to change - gonna need a LOT of water.:-) My salt water tanks are 120, 70 and 58 gals, and a 40 gal

quarantine/hospital tank.

It's fine to speak to me as a newbee - I am a newbee as far as goldfish are concerned. I just wanted to let you know that I am familiar with hospital tanks and both Maracin products and the treatment of sick fish. I do hope you will continue to lay it out for me step by step - fiirst goldfish I've ever treated,

I think my other fish will be happy to have the tank to himself and get some food :-) But tonight they were swimming together and nuzzling each other - they've always been good buddies.

Hopefully by this time tomorrow, they will be separated, the med tank up to 80 and Maracin 2 and the salts doing their thing. These are two tough fish - they made it through my kids getting them and putting them in an uncycled 2.5 gal, and dumping a whole can of flake into the tank. From there they went to a 7 gal, and then to a 30 gal which is now the med tank. As I think I said, the main is now 70 gal - they moved in at Christmas time.

Thanks again for the help!

Should I feed some peas to my "well" fish after the move tomorrow, coming off his fast? And should I also consider feeding him some of the med food?

What is considered the best flake food for normal feedings?

Thanks again for all your help! I am hopeful we can get her through this.

Dave

Edited by parkerdt

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Ok with the flake food, I don't use them, for they float and you have to soak them to sink. What I use is Progold from Rick. It is pellet food so that it automatically sinks. But he does offer a flake food if I am not mistaken.

I know that his foods are top notch, so that is what I recommend. He has spirulina and other foods as well.

With the underground filter, not sure if anyone has told you but those don't work well with gf. Since the gf prodcue so much waste it gets caught under there creating a huge "pocket" of toxins that is dangerous. We know that when the gf "root" around the bottom they can release some of these toxins making them sick. So if you can avoid that type of filter it would be a good idea.

I would definitely feed the other 2 days of peas and then start him on the med food. You don't have to go as long with him. 10-14 days should be good.

That way if it was a bacterial thing causing the dropsy then you have a head start on him.

I hope that answered all your questions, if not let me know.

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OK, I can take the undergravel out, but it does do a nice job of keeping the tank clear and clean...

As for the peas, please give me instructions on how to feed.

As for flakes, these two guys are used to coming to the surface to get their food, and the flakes start sinking quite quickly. But I will get some normal food from Rick for them.

Off to the store to finish setting up the med tank.

Dave

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OK, Fluval 405 running, undergravel out, heater in, airstone in, gravel arranged, water 60% new 40% old treated with Prime and new water treated with Kent RO Right (it's basically a calcium pH buffer). I have added some water clarifier (deflocking agent) so the filter can scrub the water for a few hours with just floss before I move the media around. Electronic controller installed, going to match temps at 76 degrees for the move. Maracin 2 powder at the ready.

I guess next is to add salt. 1/8 teaspoon (I hope) for each 5 gal) or in my 30 gal, 6/8 teaspoon. This is significantly less than the box the salt came in asks for - Dr. Wellfish's Aquarium Salt calls for 1 TABLESPOON of salt per 5 gals. This seems like a big discrepancy?

Thanks,

Dave

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Dory is more active today, and swimming pretty well except when she gets into the current. I'm trying to arrange the circulation in the med tank for good flow, but plenty of "less turbulent" areas.

Dave

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To feed peas, I use the frozen kind. Just thaw them for an hour or so and deshell them, then cute them into bite size pieces. Probably for your monsters halving them would be good.

Dave with the salt, for dropsy you need to use "EPSOM" salts. I see you mentioned Doc wellfish. That is reg aquarium salt. For the swelling it is best to use the epsom salts, just like you get at the drugstore.

Let's clarify that before you add any salt. Because the 2 shouldn't be used together.

Epsom salt and reg salt........the dose is very different, yes.

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Glad I asked - off to Walgreens. :-) I really want to get her moved in the next few hours, so I can feed Nemo tonight...

Will report back after the EPSOM salt is in.

thanks,

Dave

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OK, Dory is moved to the med tank. it is of course, not well cycled, so how should I do water changes while treating her? Epsom salts and first dose of Maracyn-2 are in as well, and she's at 76 degrees, I'll turn her to 77 in a bit and raise her slowly to 80.

I think I've found a contributing cause, the main tank is having an ammonia spike.

I did another 50% change there, as well, and cleaned the filter well. Classic overfeeding symptoms, dang it. No more feeding the fish for my daughters for a while, and lots of water changes to come this week for that tank as well. I have always used a product called Cycle to add the bio-bacteria, is there something better?

I am going to give Nemo some peas tonight, and give Dory some tomorrow. The med food should hopefully be here Tuesday.

Dave

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Well Nemo didn't know quite what to make of the peas, but he ate them. These are shelled baby peas, and he did seem to eat only the pulp and spit out the skin.

Gotta get that out of the tank so it doesn't contribute to our problems. :-)

Dory seems comfortable in the med tank after an hour.

Dave

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