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One Disease Follow Up Another.. Headache


IvanLim

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Hi Ivan :)

Ummm, so did you actually see this fish poo any of the worms? I must have missed that, if so.

Other than that, how is your water chemistry stuff getting sorted out? pH and everything ok now?

Let me know the levels of everything you have test kits for, each time you post.

Paul

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Ok.. Paul

About worm.. should came from body else will be not so harden.. now soften so much.

From gills ( may be ) as from body cannot be since body have no identify of worm attack..

Well think my water cycle have complete :Jig:

Well i heard from other webpage said that by adding in some Epsom Salt will help in dropsy and constripation.. also help to relieve some fluid in the body(cause bloated)

Therefore have add in yesterday.

Yesterday water quality Before Epsom Salt added in

PH 6.8

A 0ppm

Nitrites 0 ppm

nitrates 10 ppm

Today water quality

PH 6.4

A 0ppm

Nitrites 0ppm

Nitrates 10ppm

GH <17.9

KH <17.9

Drop in the Ph.. may be due to Epsom Salt..

Any idea the baking soda how to add in?

how many milligram need to add in?

What i afraid is that the Ph is affected by the Epsom Salt after partial water change will back to normal(think so)

Next is about the marine salt. Should i put some of this inside due to mineral will be drain by fish and water being cycling for few month.

How to Judge a Good Marine Salt

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Im still not sure the worms came from within the fish. Unless you actually saw the worms coming out of the fish, we have no concrete proof. However, the worms are the least of your worries. pH is much more important.

Your pH is still too low for comfort. You'll need to raise it to about 7.4 to 7.8. If your KH is so extremely low that your pH drops quickly, then your likely not adding enough baking soda to keep your pH stable enough until regular water changes can be done.

Your KH is going to need to be something like 150-180ppm for your pH to stay stable between weekly waterchanges. You will notice that your pH is going to want to drop until you get the KH testing thing sorted out.

Have you been recieving the help you need for testing KH and adding baking soda to appropriate levels? I am a little out of practice with baking soda but I can certainly help you further if you need it.

All in all, I feel pretty confident that your pH levels moving around too much is the reason for your fish being sick. If you concentrate on gettting that sorted out, before anything else, your fish will stand a better chance of making it through this.

Salt will not change your pH, Marine salt, however, can. But only to a VERY small degree.

Lets just get started on the KH thing:

If your listing of 17.9 is the ppm's, then you have exactly 1 dh for alkalinity. What you really want is something like 150 ppm wich is a dH of 8.3ish. That would keep your pH stable enough for your fish. Now, to get your KH up to this level, your going to want to add ONLY enough to raise the pH by .2 to .4 ONLY once each day. Dont worry about the total hardness of the water after adding the baking soda, goldfish can handle VERY hard water......

Take a 1 gallon bucket or jug and fill it with dechlorinated tapwater. Then test it for KH. Add a level teaspoon of baking soda to it and test again. Did it change, how much? If so:

How many teaspoons will it take to raise the pH by .4 in the gallon of water? The answer to this question should be multiplied by the number of gallons your fish are living in. The answer to THAT question is the exact amount of baking soda you want to add to your tank, every day, until you have raised the KH in the tank to 150ppm. Once there, you need only worry about raising the KH of the water that your adding back to the tank after a waterchange. Be sure that the pH from the new water to the tank is within .4 ppm and youll be doing a nice job of keeping your pH stable.

Follow me on that?

Anyway, I hope your fish hold out for you....... Post back soon. :unsure:

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All your fish have Septicemia and are then acceptable to everything. You can see it all in the one sitting in the corner of the tank there and in the other ones backs and tails. Once they get this they are acceptable to every normal bacteria in the water that they naturally fight off, plus anything that might be living in the water. Its a very sad diease in which they can live up to 1 to 3 months sick before they pass over.

If you don't catch it at the beginning there isn't really a chance to help your fish.

I just went though this sickness and definitely know from your video that its Septicemia added with any other diease that attacked there immune system that can't fight it off.

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Thx for advice...

i manage to treat my goldfish2.. she have been recover from dropsy, SBD (sit on the ground),Now she could swim around.. however i am afraid that she might have SBD ( upside down).

Anyone got any salt that able to let my fish poo out ( Air inside the poo or whole line of air inside the poo (airpoo))?

Before that my goldfish2 SBD ( sit on the ground) was difficult to swim at the middle of water tank level. however she manage to swim up the water surface and grab a mouthful of air after that she will swim around in tank.later will be open up its mouth allow the air to be release.

Now she will be able to swim around. When she up to water surface she will do the same grab a mouthful of air than swim around... but she never open up its mouth (letting air to be release) may be she eat up the bubbles?? which may be very afraid SBD (upside down) might strike..

That why anyone got any solution???

About treatment of dropsy(fluid in body) Epson salt play a very very important part.. First as other ppl say treat internal bacteria, medication food, medication liquid together with aqua salt. after few days (own judgement)dont add in aqua salt which may result serious for dropsy now add epson salt (found in pharmacy)which will allow the excess fluid in body to be pass out of body later its scale will back to normal.

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Have you corrected your KH problems with baking soda yet?

What is the KH level of your tankwater?

pH?

Its very important for you to correct the problem before ANYTHING can be done about the SBD. :unsure:

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Paul you are good... i am speehless ..

You have guess it right my ph is something wrong as for Kh (didnt test)

I did add a bit of baking soda but after the next day the Ph drops again..

The baking soda i add is less than the recommanded through web calcuation. to give a slighly boost of kh/ph.

KH/PH calcuation

Afraid bring stress to fish.

WEBSAY:

When you dose the tank, dissolve the baking soda in water you've removed from the tank; then add the mixture slowly to the tank stirring to disperse. Shoot for raising pH by no more than .4 per day.

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All your fish have Septicemia and are then acceptable to everything. You can see it all in the one sitting in the corner of the tank there and in the other ones backs and tails. Once they get this they are acceptable to every normal bacteria in the water that they naturally fight off, plus anything that might be living in the water.  Its a very sad diease in which they can live up to 1 to 3 months sick before they pass over.

If you don't catch it at the beginning there isn't really a chance to help your fish.

I just went though this sickness and definitely know from your video that its Septicemia added with any other diease that attacked there immune system that can't fight it off.

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Thx for advice SilverPelt.. so any idea what have you done to try help your fish? The one you mention that sitting at the corner have passaway... :cry1 before u have posted. other fish also have red streaks on fins what is your advice?

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:( unfortunely septicemia killed off my whole fish population except my two pom pons and one of them is very ill. Its a horriable horriable diease that you have to catch at the beginning and even then its hard to tell if your fish will live. Right now the only thing I can suggest that has worked for me is Fungus Eliminator by Jungle, this here http://www.vvvv.com/global/product_det...D=1141678346298

Its the only thing that helped my one pom pon get through, other then that the water has to be crystal clear, so 75% water changes everyday with your tank. once you battle septicemia, then the other dieases your fish has will come down too. Septicemia is a blood poisioning so once you get rid of that then your fish can heal from the other dieases, otherwise there bodies can't fight off the other dieases no matter how many meds you use because of the blood poisioning or septicemia in the system. It is caused by over population or contamination of the water. Anything from soap, hand creams or anything getting into the water that can get through an open cut on the fish or with just haveing a bad emune system by over population.

Other medications you can try is M-2 (never know how to spell the first word) others suggested it though and it never worked for me, the only thing thats working right now is the jungle fungus eliminator. Look for any type of medications that say that it will get rid of red streaks or septicemia.

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KH/PH calcuation

Afraid bring stress to fish.

The person who wrote that is very knowledgable and is correct. But, you have to follow through with the procedure to be successful in correcting the problem for good. To do that, do this:

Your KH is going to need to be something like 150-180ppm (wich should be about 7.8 -8 pH) for your pH to stay stable between weekly waterchanges. All in all, I feel pretty confident that your pH levels moving around too much is the reason for your fish being sick. If you concentrate on gettting that sorted out, before anything else, your fish will stand a better chance of making it through this.

WEBSAY:

When you dose the tank, dissolve the baking soda in water you've removed from the tank; then add the mixture slowly to the tank stirring to disperse. Shoot for raising pH by no more than .4 per day. Precisely, but you have to do the pH raising thing with the 1 gallon of water in a bucket (and a KH test kit???).

The whole idea to this is that your going to raise them through to the desired pH level and keep it there. Otherwise, your going to have an ongoing battle with SBD. SBD is actually a controllable thing for most goldies. But NEVER with a poor pH situation such as your tapwater source. :unsure:

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Post back soon.

Paul

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Thx Paul and SilverPelt for your advice.

SilverPelt some of the medication doesnt available in singapore like M-2. But i have arrange of INTERPET medication liquid.

SilverPelt

The link undermention is something my goldfish2 now suffer from as well some others fish what do u think is it red streaks or vain?

Do u think this is red streaks

About my PH from the tap is PH 7.0 have tested out already.

Next is that should i rise one shot to hit:

KH like 150-180ppm and about 7.8 -8 pH?

Or slowly at a time?

So any ideal about mineral salts?

I thought of adding in some of it do you think is necessary?

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Sorry, I forgot to give you the instructions:

Take a 1 gallon bucket or jug and fill it with tapwater, dechlorinated. Then test it for KH. Add a level teaspoon of baking soda, completely dissolve it and test again. Did it change, how much?

How many teaspoons will it take to raise the pH by .4 in the gallon of water? The answer to this question should be multiplied by the number of gallons your fish are living in. The answer to THAT question is the exact amount of baking soda you want to add to your tank, every day, until you have raised the KH in the tank to 150ppm. Once there, you need only worry about raising the KH of the water that your adding back to the tank after a waterchange. Be sure that the pH from the new water to the tank is within .4 ppm and youll be doing a nice job of keeping your pH stable.

Follow me on that? :unsure:

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That looks like the start of septicemia, however the fish in the videos look like they have it worse then those pics there are those recent pics or older pics

All I can suggest is maybe clean out the whole tank have fresh water salt it to what you have it and let your fish relax for a few hours without meds then use the M-2 and that will help with various dieases and hopefully for you will get rid of the septicemia. It just sounds to me like you have a lot of meds in the tank right now?

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Silverpelt,

With all due respect, I'm not sure if your following exactly whats going on here. :unsure: Ivan has a problem with the KH and pH of the tank. Nothing more. There are NOT a lot of medications in the water. He has access to an interpet med, thats all.

Even though an internal bacterial infection is obvious, no amount of medication will stop it, salt will do nothing to fix it either, a full tank cleaning will only set-back whatever progress has been made in the cycling phase, treatment "could" help but the sichness will return. In short, NOTHING will make them get better if the underlying problems (the cause in the first place) are not aleiviated.

The way to cure these fish is to cure the water problems. The water problems are a non-existant KH and a rapidly decreasing pH. To fix these problems a series of experiments and testing the tapwater with additions of baking soda needs to be done first and foremost.

So, please, if you dont fully comprehend whats going on here, try not to make any suggestions about treatments or anything else. You could seriously complicate things if your not careful...... :o

So, Ivan, try my suggestion above and report back with your findings. Otherwise, I am at a loss for futher advice. :unsure:

Paul

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Silverpelt,

With all due respect, I'm not sure if your following exactly whats going on here. :unsure: ? Ivan has a problem with the KH and pH of the tank. Nothing more. There are NOT a lot of medications in the water. He has access to an interpet med, thats all.

Even though an internal bacterial infection is obvious, no amount of medication will stop it, salt will do nothing to fix it either, a full tank cleaning will only set-back whatever progress has been made in the cycling phase, treatment "could" help but the sichness will return. In short, NOTHING will make them get better if the underlying problems (the cause in the first place) are not aleiviated.

The way to cure these fish is to cure the water problems. The water problems are a non-existant KH and a rapidly decreasing pH. To fix these problems a series of experiments and testing the tapwater with additions of baking soda needs to be done first and foremost.

So, please, if you dont fully comprehend whats going on here, try not to make any suggestions about treatments or anything else. You could seriously complicate things if your not careful...... :o

So, Ivan, try my suggestion above and report back with your findings. Otherwise, I am at a loss for futher advice. :unsure:

Paul

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Well thankyou for making me feel right at home here

I know all about septicemia, until he gets rid of that no matter how clean the ###### water is, they still will get sick and die. And I know his fish have septicemia you can see it all in the videos he posted, which is an interal bacteria infection

After this I don't think I will be coming back here. Thanks a lot

Oh and Ivan just don't bother taking my advice about septicemia as from what toothless has suggest I know nothing about fish.

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Well thankyou for making me feel right at home here

I know all about septicemia, until he gets rid of that no matter how clean the ###### water is, they still will get sick and die. And I know his fish have septicemia you can see it all in the videos he posted, which is an interal bacteria infection If I have to explain the folly in the above statement, then you truly don't understand the entirety of the situation. The fish are sick because there is no KH to hold the pH stable. Until that is fixed, NO progress can be made. Nope, none at all. Zero. The basis for every aspect of fish health rests upon water chemistry and stability. Nuff said.

After this I don't think I will be coming back here. Thanks a lot

This is your prerogative. Just know that it is not because of me. I was doing my job and helping Ivan with his KH/pH problem (that was making his fish sick). Then you abrubtly "butted-in" to this thread and swayed things off course. I did not make you do this.

Oh and Ivan just don't bother taking my advice about septicemia as from what toothless has suggest I know nothing about fish. I DID NOT say that you know nothing about anything. I never even implied it. I merely stated that if you don't have a firm grasp on the WHOLE situation, the "bull" could easily buck you right off. 

I am sorry if your offended in any way. Truly.

Paul

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Again, the septicemia is the symptom from bacteria that got a foothold because of the derrangement of pH. You cannot treat septicemia in a body of water without a stable pH. I just wont happen. ESPECIALLY if the derangement of pH is the undrlying cause. Fix the problem and then (and ONLY then) can a treatment for the symptom of septicemia do any good. ;)

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Well thankyou for making me feel right at home here

I know all about septicemia, until he gets rid of that no matter how clean the ###### water is, they still will get sick and die. And I know his fish have septicemia you can see it all in the videos he posted, which is an interal bacteria infection

After this I don't think I will be coming back here. Thanks a lot

Oh and Ivan just don't bother taking my advice about septicemia as from what toothless has suggest I know nothing about fish.

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Hey SilverPelt,

Relax abit,

Since Paul apologize if he have offended you.

Just forgive and forget..

Our main purpose is to learn how to tackle our fish problems..

Share our experience in the forum so that we can save as much fish as possible.

Maybe you are new to my forum that why Paul afraid that wrong move will cause fatal to fishes.

Join in the conversation as we moves along we learnt new things that why this forum is use for.dont say not coming back here.

Waiting for your reply

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Oh one thing about my goldfish2,

05/03/06

At night i feed them (all goldfish) with peas.

06/03/06

Than that morning i saw 2 poo.

1 about 1cm poo this having 3 oval shaped air bubbles inside and abit of meal poo.

The other is the same but less bubble.

07/03/06

i feed them again with peas(left over after this finish) in morning.

Given fukes at night.

08/03/06

Same occurs Air poo around 2 of them found.

Feed them normal sinking pellets morning and night.

09/03/06Today

Normal poo found no more air poo found in water surface.

These poo float on the water surface and one courner, i suspect is from my goldfish2 SBD(upside down).

few month back, this goldfish indeed poo out this kind of poo but is much more longer about 10cm all inside is airbubbles. I mistaken it as eggs.. :lol:

That time my mum forget to turn on air pump which result this goldfish have a slightly turn. I help the fish abit by pressing very lightly on its stomach than in few hrs time this air poo came out. I still remember it came out 2 or 3 time all is about 5-8 cm long. Later this fish can swim as normal.

As for this few weeks ago,

This goldfish2 suffer SBD (sit at buttom),dropsy, popeye.

This fish sit around in the tank most of the time, very seldom will swim all the way up to the surface to grap a mouthful of air making itself floatable to swim in the tank; however, else if she did that she will open up her mouth letting out bubbles (just now grap a mouthful of air)when halfway floating around. Lastly,landing at the buttom.

Few days back when start to able to swim,

All have been cure no above illness but now SBD (upside down)

When this fish starts to swim from SBD (sit at buttom) it will swim all the way to the water surface than grap a mouthful of air making itself to be able to swim in the tank.However, she never open up its mouth?? eat up bubbles?? which lead to SBD (upside down).

i have my video clips ready to show u but.. my freewebpage could not upload anymore. :cry1

Any advice.. about why having this Airpoo other than what i suspect the air that it eat up?

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Well said Ivan. I definitely did not mean to hurt any feelings. I am simply looking out for the interests of the fish in question. :)

Have you figured out how much baking soda you need to add to a gallon of water to raise the pH .4ppm? Its probably a good idea totry the experiment in a separate gallon of water. Also, you may want to try the experiment with a gallon of water that has been sitting out for 24 hours too. Since the pH drops in that amount of time, I think it best to let the pH level off where it does before adding the baking soda to raise the KH/pH.

Post your results and calculations when you figure them out. :D

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Sorry I didnt see you had posted again.

Your fish are suffereing from stress induced by all the different variables that have been changing lately. Cycling, pH drops, pH spikes, possible temp changes, medications and everything else seems to have messed with your goldies ability to function properly right now. The best thing to combat SBD is to feed a controlled diet, keep the water chemistry stable and hope that they can heal up a bit more and begin to lead a normal life once again.

I must warn you that some fish are either born flippers or are damaged beyond repair. In short, your fish might not ever be absolutely normal ever again. Only good clean water and time will tell if they get better. Perhaps the bubble eating is because of damaged gills from the pH stress and cycling. If so, as their gills heal, theyll eat less bubbles and hopefully flipover less.

I really wish there were more for SBD. :unsure:

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The fish in the video looks like a ryukin. It has an extremely squished body and therefore has a tendency to flipover during times of stress. The swim bladder of the fishes body is located directly behind the hump on that goldfishes back. Since the swim bladder is squished into that hump, airbubbles from gulping air (that get trapped in the intestine) causes the bouyancy of the fish to flip, causing the fish to flipover. With many fish, its not a permanent thing. But the correct course of action HAS to be taken.

Have you already checked to see how much baking soda it takes to raise the pH by .4 or .5 in a gallon of aged water? I am a little concerned about this situation because it seems like your ignoring my questions regarding your water chemistry. Unless you fix it, Theres nothing that can be done for your fish. :(

Please let me know where your water chemistry stands..........

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Well said Ivan. I definitely did not mean to hurt any feelings. I am simply looking out for the interests of the fish in question.  :)

Have you figured out how much baking soda you need to add to a gallon of water to raise the pH .4ppm? Its probably a good idea totry the experiment in a separate gallon of water. Also, you may want to try the experiment with a gallon of water that has been sitting out for 24 hours too. Since the pH drops in that amount of time, I think it best to let the pH level off where it does before adding the baking soda to raise the KH/pH.

Post your results and calculations when you figure them out. :D

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Wow.. need to calculation..

Using the formula:

Log ( starting kh / ending kh ) = value of increase PH

1 teaspoon of baking soda in 50L of water = increase of 71.6ppm (4dh)

I did a measure of my overnight tap water and its Ph is 7.0, both KH and PH is less than 17.9ppm (1 dh)

using Log ( starting kh / ending kh ) = value of increase PH

starting kh = 17.9ppm

ending kh = x ppm

value of increase Ph is 0.4

Log ( 17.9 / x ) = 0.4

17.9 / x = 10 to the power of 0.4

x = 17.9 / (10 to the power of 0.4)

x = 7.13

Sub the x value into thiswebpage

my water tank about 16.45 gallon full tank, 90% fill is about 14.94 gallon

Desire Kh will be 150ppm

the webpage generate given baking soda added in is 0.02 to the new water that to be pour into tank.

So Paul... how is the calculation?

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