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gumbo

Emergenceny-please Help Me!

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Hi.

Joey just is not getting better. And the tank is not cycling! The Ammonia reads 0, the nitrites .50 and Nitrate 5. It has been like this for about 2 weeks. Should I discontinue the waterchanges until Nitrite reaches 1.0 and than do one? Will this hellp the cycle? I am scared the waterchanges are prolonging the time it takes for the tank to cycle. He continues to bottom sit with clamped fine, but today he he is breathing very heavily and I know this is a bad sign because everytime my tropical fish die they sit gasping at the bottom.

Besides the .3% salt, the tank heated at 80, and the waterchanges IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE I CAN DO? Or am I doing all I can and I need to just wait?

Thank you, I know it has been a stressful week for a lot of people in the forum :(

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Yes, letting the nitrItes rise to 1ppm would help but it could also add stress to the situation. You have to keep plugging away at the cycle. Meanwhile, you could remove him to a separate container (at least 5 gallons) and begin raising the salt level. Be sure to start the new container at the level the tank is at right now. Then, each day, raise the % by 0.1%, This is where the digital gram scale comes into play. Youll need to pre-weigh salt in 0.1% increments for each days addition. Since 100% waterchanges, each day will be done:

bag 1 0.4% 4 grams per liter

bag 2 0.5% 5 grams per liter

bag 3 0.6% 6 grams per liter

etc til you have the water at 0.8%. Then each additon of salt should be equal to 0.8%.

This regime will eliminate the need for waterchanges in the cycling tank. The 100% waterchanges in the separate container will also remove the chance of ammonia poisoning.

Once the cycling tank is fully cycled, you can begin raising the salinity to 0.8% and hold it there for two weeks. This should kill off the bugs in there and have it ready for when you complete your treatment in a separate container.

Follow me on all that? :unsure:

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Hi Brittany,

I've been working with Toothless myself regarding a parasite in my tank: chilo. If you'd like, take a look at my thread when you get a chance regarding the treatment I am following and the results.....

http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...showtopic=37625

After discussing this with Toothless, I'm gonna pop in and help you along w/your treating Joey.

After reading the posts, what I would like to add is this: if you're going to salt up to .8%, you must be very observant of your fish's behavior and physical state. In my case, my fish could not handle it. I was able to get up to .8%, however one fish had to be removed immediately due to his eyes starting to "pop". That fish is now in a hospital tank salted down to .3%, temp at 78F, no filter, bubble wand, 100% water changes daily and started 5 days on Maracyn.. A few days later my second fish started exhibing the same symptoms, so the salt concentration needed to come down. I was only able to hold .8% for 3 days.

If I hadn't caught this "pop eye" sooner, it could have been deadly.

As Toothless says, a gram scale is going to be your best friend during this treatment. You should try to find one.

One other train of thought for you is the exact size of your tank. It may say it is 10 gallons, but does it truly hold exactly 10 gallons? Maybe not! If you can measure out exactly how many gallons it holds, this number will help you in determining the amount of salt, in grams, needed to get to your .8% without overdosing.

Also, if you're concerned about him staying in the uncycled tank, move him in to a separate sterile container (salted at the same level your main tank is at) and let the main tank cycle. Perform the 100% water changes daily to keep the ammo from rising.

How is Joey eating today? Peas are very good to feed during this time of stress; they are soft to chew.

Post back soon.

Laura

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Hi Laura. I actually have been keeping up with both you and fantailfan's threads :) And from what I hear I am really afraid of doing the .8% salt at all until I see that somebody has gotten a positve result out of it, especailly since Joey is on such a thin wire, I would hate for it to push him over the edge. What I will do is get him out of the uncycled tank and into the sterile rubbermaid like you both suggested. (And do the .8% salt in the main tank with him out of it). It's hard for me to tell if it is the the bad water or the parasites that are making him worse and eliminating one of those will help me decide. Than I guess I will do the salt... I am still unsure with Joey. I'm ordering a microscope tomorrow.

In the meantime, I have a product call ANTI-FLUKE that treats gill and body flukes and fish lice. The ingredients are dimethyl, hydroxy, and trichloromethyl. I don't know how harsh this medication is but I was hoping it would not be that harsh and also the ingredients are things I have never used and maybe they could be effective. Just a thought.

I also have RID-Ich+, ICH-CLear, and PC on hand. He has a couple white dots on him that makes me think he has protozoan or Ich from what the Mardel pamphlet is telling me. Not chilo. BUT of course I have no way of proving this. In the beggining I used PC. And it seems that when I put the PC in he improved 50% but never completely. I'm tempted to try it again because it won't stress him and perhaps it works! It worked for Gumbo! And he had the same thing as Joey. But do you think the parasites would have immunity to it by now?

Sorry for all the babble.

He is eating a little bit.. not much; maybe 3 flakes a day. He has not pooped in 1 day but before he was pooping mixture of normal and white stringy poop. He still has streaks in his tail and is still at the bottom gasping.

Any suggestions on a new route of medication? What would you do if you were me Laura? :unsure: Are you going to use a different med now? I'm so confused and scared to do anything with him but at the same time if I don't do something he's not going to make it! He just looks so delicate I don't want to disturb him anymore :(:heart

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Hi Brittany,

How is Joey doing today?

If you are ordering a microscope, I would not add any meds until we can id what you've got. I think it's just going to stress the situation even more. As long as he's eating, he's doing ok.

Have you tried peas?

Also, have you noticed any clamping going on?

And when you say he's gasping at the bottom, what exactly are you seeing? Is his mouth opening and closing vigorously? Or are his gills opening and closing really fast?

I think we need to just evaluate his situation on a daily basis. Watch him closely and keep us posted.

I am not going to use any additional meds at the moment. I think I'm just gonna move both fish to the QT tank and sterilize the main tank. At the same time I'm gonna buy a bigger tank and get that cycled for their new home. I scoped the main tank last night and did not find chilo, however that doesn't mean it's gone. I'll keep checking. I'm going to update my post so you can review it at your leisure.

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Hi.

Yes, he has clamped fins. Sometimes he is gasping and sometimes not. When he is both gills and mouth move rapidly. He also has occassional spasms and darts around the tank crazily but most the time he is floating at the top or sitting in a corner not moving at all.

This is how he has been acting since I found nitrites in the water from my move. Before this there was no bottom sitting or gasping but a lot of darting and paceing from parasites.

I'll try peas today, I have not yet.

Thank you,

Brittany.

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Hi Brittany,

Have you checked your water parameters today?

If they are not in range, I suggest a large water change to try to get them in check. Else, you did mention you may move him to a QT tank w/fresh water and perform those 100% water changes daily. Can you possibly try that while you get ur main tank cycled?

Let us know.

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I fed him peas today and he ate them all happily :lol: He also pooped normal green color from peas. He hasn't been gasping at all today, but still has clamped fins. I am going to do a large waterchange and if things get back to worse again I will move him into the seperate container. The water params are the same... still have .50 nitrites. Thanks for the help.

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That should work fine. Toothless had a cheapo microscope from nnnnnn for a long time; that's how he originally started.

Remember to get some cover slips, too.

How is Joey doing today?

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For a starter scope, you cant do TOO much better than that. But, AS chico suggested, Proffesional slides and slips will mae the images MUCH clearer.... ;)

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Alright I will get the scope soon, my mom is going to kill me :ignore

Today I tested and was very excited to see I only had .25 nitrites! I don't think it will be long before I get 0, from my experience with other cycles.

Joey is not bottom sitting anymore, but still just kind of floating around the water. He has trouble eating the flakes, so I think I am going to stick with peas for now on, is this ok?

Once the tank is fully cycled I am going to slowly raise the salinity to .6%. Is it ok if I don't go all the way up to .8%? Also I want to try the PC again. My intuition is telling me to! Is it ok to use PC at .6% salt? I am going to do a few rounds of this PC, maybe 6-7, and if there are no improvements than of course I will stop. I am also going to keep his tank at 78-80 degrees.

How does this sound?

Thanks for the help and good luck with your fishies too! I hope they all come around! All of our fish really seem to be tough little guys going through these struggles for so long!

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Also I want to ask a question about Gumbo, the one that is healthy..well maybe.

Gumbo just had an injury caused by one of my ornaments that I removed immediately. I guess he scratched his side on it. He was missing 2 or 3 scales and you could tell it was a scratch. I put in some Melafix for a few days to help it heal. Now it has a white patch over it. Is this a healing patch or could it be fungus or bacterial? Like what is it suppose to look like when an injury heals? Thanks. :unsure:

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Why do you say he has trouble eating flakes? Can you describe in more detail? By any chance are you soaking the flakes before feeding Joey? If you're not, please give it a try. It'll soften the flakes; easier to chew.

Although you have only .25 nitrItes, you still have them. Do you have your tank salted right now? (sorry, I can't remember)

I honestly think you should wait on the salting until we can find out what you have in your tank. You don't want to be so quick at adding medication after medication. You need to give your fish a break. I do realize that time is of the essence here. But, since you did say you were going to get the scope, having the tank salted at .3% until then is just fine.

If you're not going to get the scope any time soon, and your motherly instinct tells you to, go ahead and try the Parasite Clear again. And yes, it is safe to use with salt. However, not such a high concentration of salt. I would only go up to a maximum of .3% when using with the Parasite Clear.

Remember to watch your water parameters throughout.

As for Gumbo, it's possible the scales are healing. How long ago did this take place? My Robby scraped himself on an ornament, and about two weeks later it turned into a little white patch...healing nicely. Can you post any pics for us to see?

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Yes, I always soak my food before feeding. He seems to have a harder time chewing the flakes than the peas is what I mean. He gobbles the flakes and than spits them back out. With the peas he eagerly ate and swallowed all of them about 5 peas mashed up total.

My tank is salted at .3% right now. I salted to help with the nitrites and to calm him a bit.

I really do not know when I can get the scope or if I can afford it. I'm a college student with no job relying on my mother for payment :rolleyes: I just moved to my current location 2 weeks ago and I still have some address changing stuff to settle and I am not going back home for a week or two and that is where I would have them send the microscope right now. I really wish I could get it now but I've been spending way too much as it is.

So with that said I want to treat him temporarily with something not so harsh but at the same time I think may work. When I first treated Joey with the PC he got 50% better, but since he never fully recovered I switched to the Malchalite Green treatment(Maroxy) which only made him worse(more stressed, etc.). I am thinking if I keep at the PC it will work BUT I'm also scared that since I have already used the PC before now the parasites have immunity to it. Know what I am saying? I don't think it would hurt to try though because he has not been in any treatment for over 3 weeks and the PC is not as harsh as other meds.

If he does have any negative effect to the PC I will stop and wait for the microscope.

Oh and thanks for the response about Gumbo, if Robby had a white patch and is healing that makes me believe Gumbo is too, thank goodness :lol: He scraped himself about 1 week ago and I can't post a pic because I do not have a digital camera or a scanner :( I do have a web cam though...but do not know how to work it :unsure: lol

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Hi Gumbo,

just my two cents:

If you see improvement in his behavior, I would hold off on using any more medications. Besides, even though PC is safe for functioning bio-filters, yours wont be considered "functioning" until a good week has passed without ANY ammonia or nitrItes. In short, a weakened bio-filter could, and probably will be, hampered by the acriflavin in PC...... ;)

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The thing is I don't see any improvement. I do not think he will bottom sit anymore once the tank is cycled because the water params will be fine but that doesn't mean he is improving at all from the parasite. He has only gotten worse from that because of the stress of the bad water. He darts around and twitches crazily even worse than before (when he gets enough energy).

If I can't afford a microscope right now, what else am I suppose to do? I can't just let him suffer :( But if its going to mess up my bio-filter, I will wait.

I understand why you both are telling me I should wait. I don't like to do med after med either and I know that it is stressful. But he has not been on any med for 3-weeks. Do you mean I should give him rest from the cycle he just went through? How long of rest? I'm not saying I am absolutely positive I will not get a microscope soon, but lets just say I probably will not. Atleast not for another 2 weeks.

I'll give him a week rest after the tank is fully cycled than I will try the PC. During the PC treatment I will probably have the money to buy the microscope. Than I will begin scoping ASAP. Does that sound good?

I really think the PC is going to help if not cure him..I know it sounds nutty but I have a feeling.

Edited by gumbo

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Watch your water params. Give it at least one week after you believe it has cycled. Them go ahead and start the Parasite Clear treatment.

In the meantime watch your fishy very closely.

Keep us posted!

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Hi. Joey has been hovering at the top panting really hard. His gills flaps move open and close pretty rapidly. This frightens me because this was the behavior of your fish before he passed :cry1 It seems like his gills are irritating him very bad. He at the smalles crumb of pea today. I mashed it up on my finger and hand fed it to him and he took a very tiny nibble while it was disintegrating. I don't know what to do about his gills...could it be the .3% salt I have him in? But than I thought salt was suppose to make him better... I am going to do another large waterchange. Help me if you can please :heart

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1. Is Joey still in the main cycling tank?

2. Do you know what your params are at this moment?

3. What is the temp of your tank water?

Robby wasn't at the top of the tank. He was hovering mid-tank and was "chewing". There was not any excessive gill movement at all. He really did not give me any reason to believe he was in respiratory distress. So.....your situation is a tad different.

Joey ate all the pea you gave him? There was no spitting out?

How about any fin clamping?

Let me know...

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Ok Joey's state:

At top floating with current, breathing semi-rapidly (looks like he has trouble taking in breaths sometimes),gill flaps moving open and closed, fins clamped and have been for a week or so, red streaks in tail, jagged fins, white spot on dorsal fin, and when he has enough energy spazzes out and darts around the tank twitching.

Also I just noticed this and am not sure if it is his scales or what. But there are very tiny little red dots that stretch out in a single line across his body(not his tail or fins).

Tank Params(he is still in main tank):

ammonia:0

nitrite: .25

nitrate 5

He is heated at 80 degrees. This is part of the reason I am not taking him out. He is also salted at about .2% I lowered it recently. Do you really think it's ,25 nitrites that are causing this..he is salted to help with the nitrites and there is barely in there and NEVER was there more than .50 nitrites. I test twice a day. I just really think taking him out would just stress him more and with the 100% waterchanges everyday...

I don't know what else I can do. I just know its the parasites. I thnk they have gotten to his gills...I don't know

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Just tested again and there are 0 nitrites.

Any guess as to what the little ( I mean TINYY) red dots on his scales may be? :unsure:

Could they be a form of lice/mites?

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Are they just on one side of his body? Like from his gills to the base of his tail? On both sides? These just show up?

Do you have an aerator in the tank? (like bubble wand or airstone)

No way you can get a pic??

Let me see what I can find for you.......

Edited by chico

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Joey is orange and white. Mostly orange on his body. He is an oranda.

These dots start right at the gill plates on his side. Than they curve down to the base of his tail in a line not a cluster. It's very strange and I have never seen this before. They are very tiny and red. They are on both sides like this. :blink:

I do have an aerator in the tank pumpin strong=/ he is not gasping at the surface for air, more just pumping his gills with his head under the surface but at the top of tank. His mouth opens and closes with his gills. He pumps twice a second, to give you an idea of how rapid.

With nitirites now being 0, it can't be that or I should say I don't think it is. Gill flukes? AND body flukes? Just throwing out ideas.

I took tons of pictures of both Joey's red dots and Gumbo's injury. I am going home this weekend and will scan them on my mom's computer and post them ASAP. It will probably about Saturday/Sunday until I have them posted. Also, I'm not very good at taking pictures of fish so I'm not sure how good they will turn out. But I got some good close up shots. :D

I just really hope Joey hangs on for me.

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