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Emergenceny-please Help Me!

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Thanks for the info, sorry for all my paranoid questions :lol:

I am still waiting on the Bio-Spira to arrive..I ordered it last Thursday so it should be here soon. After the treatment is finished he is probably going to have to stay in the containers for a couple more days.

Although I am still not sure if it is working, it is hard to tell since he is in a grey rubbermaid. I do know he looks VERY relaxed, but that could just be because he is always in the dark and sleeping a lot! :rolleyes: What should I look for in signs of recovery? I should put him in a clear container so I can get a better look after treatment. When I do the salt dips in between new dosages I can see him better.. but still very hard to tell <_< hmm...

Well as soon as this Bio-Spira arrives I will be sterilizing the tank and getting it re-cycling ASAP.

Brittany

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Hi Brittany :)

No worries, they're all valid questions that need answering, right?

Well, without a scope, the only way to guage success is no symptoms. Flashing scratching, rapid fin flicking, corner diving, mouth chattering/coughing, spinning out in corners, pacing, clamped fins, swimming backwards, these are all the symptoms to watch out for. Mainly clamped fins, coughing, and any flashing type behavior. If they persist beyond the treatment regime, it was not successful and it should be continues after a couple days break in clean, slightly salted (0.1%) water. The slight salting helps repair and regain any lost or excess slime coat.

So, any symptoms persisting?

Ammonia remaining low to nil between waterchanges? Remember, as long as it is pretty well below the numbers on the toxicity chart, a 100% waterchange isn't REALLY needed. Just a moderate to large one will do. ;)

Paul

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Hi.

Yes, ammonia has remained 0 through out treatment, but still I did 100% waterchanges every time I added new dose which was actually every other day.

I now have the salt dissolving for the salt dip and fresh water with .1% salt sitting to obtain room temperature.

As far as symptoms continuing..No I have not seen any scratching, flashing, corner diving, etc. He has remained pretty still and calm every time I check on him. During salt dips he moves around a lot but I think he's just happy to see the light :lol:

This morning I found a very lengthy hairy looking poop in his bin. Gumbo, one time, had this and I was told it was the fish removing all of its excess cellular tissue or something of that nature :huh: Can you give me some info on this? heh I'm hoping it is a good thing for him and maybe he is removing some type of nasty from inside him! lol but I have no idea..

THe Bio-Spira arrived today so I will be working on his main tank sometime today. Until than I will observe him in new fresh water and see if he has recovered. Thanks again for all your help.

Brittany

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Sorry, I missed your post. :unsure:

yes, it should remain refridgerated until ready to use.

As for the poop thing, long stringy poop is indicative of stress and or a small battle of bacterial infection. Generally, this is to be expected from time to time when battling parasites. As long as excess redening of the body or base of the fins is not noticed, and its appetite remains good, it should be nothing to be overly concerned about. But, keep a close eye as usual. ;)

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Now that the top of Joey's container does not have to be covered, I can see his behavior more clearly. He seems to love his aerator and will dive up on top of the bubbles and battle his way down to the bottom through the bubbles. It's cute, but so were all of his other stunts, like diving through the plants flipping around under the leaves and than repeating over and over and over...lol. It's hard to tell if he is being playful and having fun or he is agitated by the parasites and can't stop moving! I have never seen his "normal" behavior because he has had these nasties since I bought him at the pet store.

I STILL have not had time to sterilize the tank because I have been so busy shopping and packing to move, but tomorrow I am for sure doing it. :krazy: I was thinking I would not add the BIOSPIRA and put him in the uncycled main tank for a day, so I can get a better look at him, than put him back into a fresh tub/container of water and depending on whether I think he has recovered or not start a new treatment or put him into the cycled main tank. Good plan??

Gumbo has been acting strange lately I am fustrated to say. His eyes are a bit cloudy, I can't tell if he maybe hit them on something and they are scratched OR if they are cloudy from stress. Also whenever I come really close to the tank he gets scared and flashes which is very uncommon for him . I think it is because he can not see very well with his eyes being cloudy and he gets startled. I guess I will wait to see if they clear up..I REALLY hope it is not parasites! FYI the water params are fine. ite=0 ate=10 ammonia=0

ALL OF THIS and I am moving in 7 days!! I will come back to get the fish a week or so after I move but I just don't know how I am going to continue treatment 4 hours away! I can't imagine meeting my new roomates lugging in 3 tanks and 2 big tubs! Oh well I will think about the later! :crp

Just thought I'd give an update. If Joey has not recovered from this treatment I think I am going to hold off for a few weeks, since I have to move. I will invest in a microscope and treat him again in Tallahassee. Is this ok?

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I have placed Joey in a clear tank with flourescent lighting and can see him VERY well. His symptoms are continuing and worsening. He has two red streaks in tail. The white spot remains on his dorsal fin and his fins remain frayed. He is still flashin around like a mad man and twitching. So I really do not think MG is going to be a cure for him. I would like to purchase a microscope and find out his exact parasite and go on from there. Like I said before, I am moving in 5 days :crp . I was wondering what you or anyone else suggest I do.

Should I move him up with me before I do another treatment? I want to consider the stress level...it is a 4 hour drive.

Should I cycle his tank and leave him at home? Than when I get a chance treat him on a weekend or something when I am there?

Enless told not to, this is my plan:

1. Cycle his main tank with BIO-SPIRA and put Joey in when done.

2. Leave him in the tank until I finish moving all my furniture etc., than come home 1-2 weeks later and MOVE all my fish and tanks including Joey up to Tally.

3. Purchase a microscope and begin exploring possible predators.

4. Begin new reccomended treatment.

That would mean Joey would not be treated for anything for about a month, besides maybe some salt dips. Is this ok?

SORRY FOR ALL THE LONG POSTS :blink: , I'm really using this to gather my own thoughts and hear out anyone that has suggestions. THANKS! :):heart

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I believe his restlessness and diving through the bubbles and plants is him trying to clear the parasite off of him and his gills.

A scope would definitely help with deciding wich route to go for treatment. Until then, Prazi is the only other med I would suggest trying before trying other stuff. that way, you can, at least, discount flukes as being the culprit. Of course, If you have treated for flukes with Parasite clear (once every 3-4 days for two weeks) then flukes are most likely not the parasite. Then, I believe chilodonella, trichodina or costia (or a combo of either) might be your suspect/s.

I truly wish there were an easy answer to your question about holding off on treatment. If it were me, I would bring both up with you and begin treatment ASAP (in a sterile tank since you are planning on moving anyway. Not to worry, you can keep them both in an uncycled environment indefinitely as long as you pay attention to the ammonia levels and perform waterchanges, and detoxifying with Prime or Amquel plus, accordingly. My reasoning is that with MG/F OR PP in a cycled tank, the meds will be expended rather quickly by all of the excess organics in the water and filter/s. So, a sterile tank is the best route.

Perhaps you should try the potassium permanganate route. There are a couple of great sources for it and are actually very easy as far as dosing goes. Here's a couple links to the products I'm referring to:

http://www.novalek.com/kpds.htm scroll down on the column on the left and click on permoxyn.

In the link above, there is also a better formulation of MG/F in the product called RidIch+. The MG in it is a less toxic form that can be used for longer than quick cures formulation. Perhaps this will knock them down.

Here's the second source of easy to use PP: http://www.junglelabs.com/pages/details.asp?item=NJ022

Hang in there, something has to give...... ;)

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Ok I am going to go along with my plan than and cycle his main tank so he can be in there until I come back a week or so later to move him up to Tallahassee with me. There I will continue to use the bins to treat.

I have a question about cycling with BIOSPIRA, since it came with no directions. How do I do it? lol I bought a 90 gallon amount of it so I can use it for other tanks when necessary. So how much of it should I use to cycle a 10 gallon? ;)

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Hi :D

Being that you cannot possibly overdose with biospira, you can use as much of it as you want, whenever you need to. But, make sure that it remains refridgerated at a stable temp, at all times. To cycle a ten gallon, I would use up to a 1/3 of it. Be sure that it remains tightly sealed in the package/container when your not using it. It doesn't keep forever either, so, next time only buy as much as your going to need in the immediate future. Unless, of course, it comes in a bottle with a twist off lid or something similar...........

Good luck and keep us posted on your progress! :)

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HI. Just thought I would give an update.

Joey's main tank (ten gallon) is currently cycling with bio-spira. I added 1/3 of the package like you said and threw the rest out since it probably won't be useful anymore. I also added some fish food. I'm suppose to do that right? TO feed the bacteria or something? I sterilized the main tank with bleach and hot water along with the filter. I still think Joey is infected but I want him to be in a cycled tank while I am gone for a week for there will be nobody to do waterchanges.

I was reading fantailfan's thread and she is sterilizing her tank with PP, is this the Potassium Permaganate you were reccomending? Is it used for sterilizing tanks and treating parasites??

Joey is currently resting in NON medicated water in one of the rubbermaids. He eats but not as much as he use to. He bottom sits a lot, but every once and a while I see him come to the surface and take a lap around the bin. Do you think he is just exhausted from the treatment? I actually would rather see him sit they be crazily ranting around. Maybe he's getting better? When I put him in his main tank I'll take note of fins, coloration, etc. And HOPEFULLY they will be good notes.

I saw RIDICH+ at the store and bought it. When I move Joey up with me in about a week, I think I am going to try it for a week or so in sterile rubbermaid bins that I have been using. Meanwhile, I will order a microscope just in case it does not work.

Gumbo is back to acting completely normal again. I think he was just having a weird day.

Well thats all :) Brittany

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Hi Britany,

Good luck on the move! :D Hopefully all is well then! Sometimes when several meds have used over a period of weeks they just need a break in the weather so to speak, or a break from the meds. Sometimes too many meds in a row will also cause "cloudy eye" as you described in one post.

In the sick fish/sick ponds forum at Koivet there's a sticky at the top of the forum that many folk have contributed to with scope photo's of different parasites along with links to mpegs/videos of them as well.

Hopefully that will help you out with some of the learning involved with the microscope. :D The best advice is of course, to contact a local goldfish & koi club and find out about taking a wet lab when possible. ;)

PP is a abreviation we all use for Pottasium Permaganate, yes. I'll have a look see at Toothy's links, I'm not familiar with those two products as I have PP itself. I will warn you though, with the real PP, measurement/mixture needs to be exact when applying with a fish in. You should read up on PP before useing, and the counter measures. Part of that can be found on Koivets homepage under the articles section to the left sidebar, medications & dosage, also roarks is a good source for PP information & dosage.

Edited by Tamianth

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Thanks for the info.

Today I put Joey back in his main tank that cycled overnight ( man that stuff works fast!). I am happy to say that he is not paceing or darting, every once in a while, like once an hour, he will do a corner dive. And give a yawn.

He is actually so calm it is starting to worry me. He will float in the middle of the tank without moving and just float around, he'll eventually rise to the top and bob there for a minute and than start moving around?? It's strange. He has about 5 red veins in his tail fin now and his fins are clamped. Do you think that he could possibly have a bacteria case? Still just recovering from treatment aftermath? or Be more sick than ever from parasites?

Well, needless to say, I am moving tomorrow and will not be here for him for a week. Water params should be fine and he will have some time to rest before the big move and next step of treatment. I just really hope he will be ok :( Wish him luck!

Water Params for Joey Main Tank:

Ammonia:0

Nitrite:0

Nitrate: 5

Ph: 8.0-8.3

Which med would you suggest I go with next? I know you can't give the BEST possible one because you do not know exactly the parsasite, but can you just give me one that from what you know is the best and I go start as soon as possible? He's really starting to scare me and more than ever I feel rushed to cure him because he looks so lifeless at times :cry1

Thank you.

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I would suggest running salt at 0.3% while your gone.

Is there anyone who could come over and add salt to the tank for two days straight while your gone. You could add one teaspoon per gallon right now, and then tomorrow before you leave, you could add another teaspoon per gallon. Hopefully someone could come along and add a third teaspoon per gallon a day or two after you leave.

About the bio-spira; its suppose to be added to the tank and then the fish added too. But, it takes more than a single day to completey cycle it. Usually. If your already getting a reading for nitrAtes, then it is well on its way but that does not mean that the ammonia or nitrites could eventually build to toxic levels (anything above 0ppm) over the next few days while the bacteria is trying to get a foothold in your media and gravel and whatever else is in contact with the water.

the thing about the nitrification cycle is that ammonia takes a day or two to build to readable levels in a freshly set-up tank. So, if the tank were not truly cycled yet, it would be at least a day or two before ammonia would build high enough to meet the needs of the bacteria you seeded. In Short, some could and will die off before they get enough ammonia to become "established". Follow me (sorry, Im rambling a bit)? Thats why you should add the fish immediately so that the bio-bugs in the water have an immediate source of ammonia to start processing for energy to be able to colonize.

Either way, try to get at least a teaspoon per gallon into the tank before you leave. If possible, have someone else add the needed salt (leave EXPLICIT instructions and pre-measured doses waiting) to the tank for a few days to get the salinity up to 0.3%. This will, at least, hamper any further invasion a little. It will even help reduce stress during the next week.

Post back soon. :unsure:

Paul

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Also, just to add to Tamianths description of PP, here's a good source of PP that is very easy to dose as it is premixed and diluted enough for ease of dosing small tanks: http://www.goldfishconnection.com/shop/det...tId=51&catId=21

I would suggest you try this form of PP first. Otherwise, it takes weighing out a specific amount of grams per a single gallon of distilled water and then using a specific amount of drops per gallon to reach the desired ppms. Here's a link that has a great method for creating this "stock solution" method: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA027 Scroll down near the bottom of the page and you'll see the potassium permanganate stock solution.....

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Ok, everyone is here in Tallahassee with me now. I have Joey in his main tank salted at .3%. He is bottom sitting since I added the salt and before I did he was paceing and darting. Is it alright that he is bottom sitting as opposed to paceing back and forth, etc? He is eating fine and for the most part pooping ok too. The veins in his tail have reduced.

Right now I am going to let him relax in the salted water for a week and than I will probably raise it to .8% depending on how your conclusion to this method is :huh: He is really remote when he is in the salt and I can't imagine how still he will be if I raised it to .8

Well anyway, thats all. Just wanted to know if the bottom sitting was expected or normal in the conditions he is in and the salt. Thanks. :)

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Great! :D

I'm glad he is still hanging in there for you. :D

The thing about 0.8% salt is that he will be acting just the same if he were in 0.3%. The gradual raising of the salinity allows for fish to become accustomed to it. Thier osmoregulatory functions are well equipped to handle these levels of salt. The key is to raise it slowly. So, if you are interested in ridding him of these parasites, then it would be a good idea begin making preparations to do raise your salinity now. That way, when your ready, you can give it a go.

I have my goldfish at 0.8% salinity as we speak and he is doing great. No more pacing, his fins arent clamped, and the redness in his tail has receded quite a bit. If you ask me, malachite green and formalin are waaay more stressful than this 0.8% salt level is.... ;)

So, see about getting a gram scale that measures tenths (find a source) and you will be good and ready to start whenever your ready.

Paul

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Well currently his fins are clamped and he is bottom sitting, this is ok? Can I just raise the salinty to .8 in the tank that he is in now? And than after do water changes?

From what I understand and in my uneduacated words the salinty calms him down enough so that his immune system can concentrate more on ridding the parasite. But does the salt actually kill the parasites? Will it kill the parasites in the water? I'm a little confused.

Than I also heard that I should follow up with some kind of treatment such as Protocol(I think thats what I heard). Would I treat him with no salt or with the salt?

Thanks :)

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Low levels of salt are what helps calm stress in goldfish. the salinity that I am using (0.8%) is strictly for killing parasites.

To raise your salinity to 0.8%, you have to do it over the course of 5-8 days and then keep it there for at least two full weeks. If your planning on doing it in a cycled tank, then it would be a VERY good idea to purchase a salinity test kit frm a petshop that has salwater fish. Without it, you'll be guessing as to what the actual salinity is and you could easily overdose. So, the scale that measures in tenths of a gram is for adding the correct amount of salt each day. The salinity kit would be for making sure that the salinity remains stable and doesnt creep up to overdose levels.

What do you mean by, "Can I just raise the salinty to .8 in the tank that he is in now? And than after do water changes?"

You want to do waterchanges ANYTIME your ammonia, nitrIte and nitrAte test kits say to. Otherwise, you needn't change any water....

Yes, you can raise the salinity in the tank he is in but do it 0.1% to 0.15% each day until you have calculated that your at 0.8%.

The whole thing to this treatment is that you know exactly what your salinity is at at all times. This treatment is risky if you go at it any kind of halfheartedly. You must be as prescise as you possibly can. ;)

Gather your thoughts together and think of all the questions you want to ask and I'll do what I can to answer them all..... :D

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HI! I have a few questions already :unsure:

Ok, so this salinty test kit will explain how to use the tests on the instructions right? How much is one of these?

I mean that after I have let the .8% salt sit in there for two weeks, than you do waterchanges to remove it all?

Is there any warning signs I should look for that will tell me that he is not reacting to the salt well at all? Because since I added the salt to .3% he has been very out of it and floaty and sometimes bottom sitting.

WIll these levels of salt kill any of the biobugs that may cause the cycle to crash?

Do I need to treat with something after I do the .8% for two weeks?

Brittany

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No meds, just salt.

Yes, after the two weeks is up, you do small waterchanges each day to remove the salt slowly.

No, going at the rate I suggested, your bio-bugs should remain just as viable as before.

Warning signs would be flipping over, very rapid breathing and others I do not eatly know offhand. But, I can assure you that it should be relatively safe ifyou follow everything to the "T".

As for your 0.3% salinity, did you raise it there slowly? Or all at once?

Yes, you will recieve very explicit instruction with a salinity test kit.

I am ready for more whenever you are ......... ;)

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Ok, I have a pretty bad NEW problem on my hands. I don't know if there is much more I can do than what I am already doing but let me know if there is please.

When I moved Joey's tank (or maybe it's because it wasn't finished cycling in the first place) it caused the cycle to spike. I noticed this pretty much right away but thought it would cycle fast so did not mention anything to you.

Ammonia: .25

Nitrite: .50

Nitrate: 5

pH: 7.8

I think this may be why he is bottom sitting so much! I mean he barely moves except to eat and to change positions. He is not gasping and he is at .3% salt so that should help. I also have put in a heater and got the water up to 78 and I am doing daily waterchanges of about 35%. To match the temperature I heat some water in the microwave and put it in the bucket with more water so it evens out to 78.

Ok some questions:

Will the tank cycle even though I am doing daily 35% waterchanges? How long will it take? It is a 10 gallon tank.

How stressful is this exactly on my fish? Are the water params THAT BAD to make him bottomsit for so long? Do you think this could be more from the parasites?

Is there anything else I can do to make him feel better while the tank cycles?

Ok, so this really sucks :( He looks miserable and I refuse to think that he might die. My plan is to get this tank cycled ASAP and to start the .8% treatment.

Thanks

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Your bio-filter may not be too far gone. From the look sof your params, you should be relatively close to having it completely cycled once again.

http://www.kokosgoldfish.com/cycle.html

Follow the advice given in the link above and you will be doing just about all you can for your goldie. Once you get the params under control, you can begin incresing to 0.8%. But, as I said before, a digital gram scale that measures tenths of a gram is the best tool you could use. THAT and a salinity meter to make sure the salinity isn't creeping too high from evapoaration. That is, unless you wanted to go all out and purchase a 100 dollar salinity meter (electroconductivity)...... :)

Dont forget about Prime or amquel plus or ammo-lock.

Post back soon.

Paul

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So once the tank is cycled he will most likely not bottom sit anymore? I feel so bad, sometimes he looks at me while I'm testing his water with the drops and he's probably thinking "=O she's poisoning me!".. <_< I'm pretty sure he hates me right now, I've been messing with him for weeks.

I need a Digital gram scale and a salinity meter, alright. Do you know of any brand names that I might look for at a local chain pet store, such as mmm? I bought this 16 dollar Hydrometer on accident. It measures salt but only very high amounts for salt water aquariums :angry: Oh well..

I can't wait until this tank cycles!

Thanks so much, Brittany.

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Hi. :)

I don't know of any being better than others but I'll see if I can find any product reviews of salinity tests...

The first and best thing to use for or during this treatment would be a gram scale. Even if you could only use it for a day, you could easily weigh all of your salt at once and have it ready in bags and labeled for their amounts/doses. I've been using Mortons Rock Salt for 89 cents per 4 pounds!

It might take some hunting but you might get lucky finding gram scales at medical or chemical supply shops/retailers. Call ahead to anything you think might prove fruitful.

Good luck. ;)

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