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Emergenceny-please Help Me!

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My black moore, has this slight white glaze over his body; like film. He also yawns and blinks more than usual. His fins are slightly withered and he is a little more lethargic than usual, he sleeps like 12 hours a night! I think he might have the START of something but I don't know what it is. I have upped water changes to twice a week and I put one table spoon of salt per 5 gallons(What percent is that? .1?). His poop is normal, so I don't know if its bacterial. No pineconing. No grains of salt looking things attached to him (that I can see).

Ammonia: 0

Nitrite: 0

Nitrate: 10

Ph level: 8.0

tap: 7.6

Tank Size: 20 gallons and 3 months

Filter: Penguin125 and Whisper 40

GPH total: 335

Waterchange: twice a week 20%

How many fish: 1-black moore 3 inches

water additives: PRIME

Medications: no, just salt

new fish: nope

Food: Omega One flakes, fruit

Unusual Findings: white hazey film on body

Behavior: little lethargic, hard to swim to top, yawning and blinking

It is a possibility that its just how the flourescent light is reflecting off his black color. Anyone else with a black moore notice a white haze look to their black moores in the light? Still wouldn't explain his behavior though. I might be a little paranoid but I'd hate to wake up one morning to see him dead out of nowhere like I sometimes read. :o

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated :)

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Chances are he has a thick slime coat. This can cause the milkyness to the fish.

I am suspecting parasties with these symptoms.

You may want to get a product called Parasite Clear and treat for over all parasites, if you don't have a microscope to figure out which one you have.

PC can be used with salt so you are good there.

The salt dose is 1 tsp per gal. So 1 tblsp is 3 tsps, you are under 0.1% concentration.

I would bump up the salt to 0.3% and see if that helps.

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Ok, it's definitely parasites. I wanted to wait a while to make sure. He is now having little spasms and yawning almost 5 times every ten minutes. His gill flaps are slightly turned outward. His slimecoat is thick. Is there any specific parasite you can think of with these certain symptoms? I know it is kind of broad, but I want to research whatever it is.

I think the parasites are in his gills and maybe on his body too. Will Parasite Clear kill anything in his gills? How do I check them on the inside? Pick him out of water?? and with tweezers lift them up? :unsure:

The tank is salted .1% now and I will get it to .2% soon. I will put in 2 tablets of the parasite clear today also. I have it on hand already for QT. It says it has PRAZI in it? Is it not the same thing as the seperate med? Should I order this PRAZI?

He looks so miserable :cry1 I hope he doesn't have anything fatal! I WILL DIE! Thanks for any help!! :heart:heart

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Oh and Thank You Laurie for the reply, sorry I didn't post back, but I read it and it helped a lot :)

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You are right Pc has prazi in it, just a lower dose. So I would stick with the pc and do at least 3 treatments. You can add the second dose in 48 hours.

Salting to 0.3% is good as well.

If you aren't seeing anything on the fish, then the fish has a bug that is microscopic.

There isn't a clear cut symptom per parasite, so doing a "over all" is best when you can't lock it down.

Watch for the symptoms to clear up a bit, and it is best to update exactly what is happening each day.

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Ok so far I have him salted at .2%, added two tablets of parasite clear=20 gallon, removed carbon and am feeding anti-parasite jungle clear food. He is definitely hanging in there. No vast improvement but looks a little better.

I will get him salted at .3% tomorrow and add another round of PC with 25% waterchange.

I was reading fantail's thread and it really helped me organize my own plan. The "coughing" toothless was saying is what Gumbo does, but not so much recently.

My oranda, Joey, is the booger who gave him this bc he's new and brought something in from the pet store. I QTed Joey for a month and thought "he must be cured by now", but I didn't do it right. I put Joey in with Gumbo and they did not get along, so I removed Joey 24 hours later. They were rubbin all over eachother so it must have caught on to Gumbo when they were together. Joey has all the same symptoms as Gumbo plus a little fin tatter. So I am treating him also :krazy: . The corner diving is what Joey does on frequent occasions. I thought he was just being silly! :unsure:

:thanks for the help and concern Laurie, I'll keep this thread updated :)

Edited by gumbo

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Joey, my Oranda, is now pooping long white stringy poop. He is twitching, yawning, corner diving, and bottom sitting...which are symptoms of parasites, but the white stringy poop is a bacterial symptom right?? Joey also has a white dot on his top fin and on his wen and on his tail fin. I don't think its ick..but maybe it is?

I want to upgrade my treatment to Quick Cure on both fish for parasites. But what if it is bacterial? Could he have both? Is it bad to treat for parasites and than treat for bacteria? Should I treat with Quick Cure and than afterwards treat with a bacterial medicine or at the same time?? I don't want to over do it with meds...so I'm asking for a plan. How should I go about doing this.

I have done 6 treatments of PC, should I do another until I get some Quick Cure or remove the PC with waterchanges? Sorry for so many questions, but its getting worse :help1

Gumbo has all the parasite symptoms...coughing, twitching, bottom sitting...but I do not think he is pooping white stringy poo.

Thanks for any help!! To recap on my questions:

Should I do another dose of PC?

What are the white dots? They are cottony not sand/crystal like.

Should I treat with Quick Clear? or another parasite medication?

Should I treat with QC and another bacteria treatment at the same time or seperate or not at all?

If I should, what bacterial treatment?

Is too many meds going to make them worse?

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Guest goldfishrock

Hi,

I had this problem for a while and soo many fish died before I discovered CLOUT. To answer a few of your questions. Treat for parasites first, then bacterial if present. NEVER treat for both at the same time as some medications become lethal when mixed. Also, do NOT try to pick out any parasites in his gills, the medication will take care of those. I've had very bad experience with Prazi which is why I'm recommending CLOUT under these conditions. The water temperature MUST be NO MORE then 24C degrees... anything higher and CLOUT will kill your moor. Treat for one day, if at any time your fishs tail or fins start splitting remove the CLOUT (I've only noticed this when the temperature is over 24C) which is why it's best to begin treatment in the evening and check up on your fish at night. The next day the fish should stop spasming,twitching, scraping, etc (if not, do a 25% water change and treat again). After the treatment, do a 25% water change... he may not look any better after treatment but will recover after a few days. Hope my input helps :krazy:

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Is CLOUT available at local pet stores or chain pet stores? If not is there a site where I can order this? 24C...what is that in farenheit..hmm. So you have had success with this? How many times and to treat what? I will definitely give it a try as it seems prazi is not working well in my case either. ^_^ Thanks for your post! :heart

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Guest goldfishrock

CLOUT is available at any PJs Pets or SuperPet. I would try calling around. It's about 8 dollars. It's 1 treatment so the problem should go away after 24 hours. If not then a second treatment may be necessary. You MUST also make sure that the water is absolutely perfect after and during treatment. The reason being, it will take a few days for your moor to build his immune system... any imperfections in the water will make it difficult for your fish to recover and may then become reinfected. 24C is 76F. It would be better if you can treat at room temperature (22C - 72F).

Also, this is very important. You have to determine how weak your fish is. If he struggles to swim, no energy, or is keeling over slightly then use ONLY half dossage. The next day do not treat with CLOUT but do a water change. On the third day use a normal dossage. Do you have a picture of your fish you can post?

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I could not find any CLOUT at my pet store. What is the active ingredient in CLOUT? WHat I did find is 2 products. I am not sure if I am going to use them but I bought them anyway. :unsure:

The first one is called MARACIDE from Mardel. It treat Ick, Velvet and other external parasites. From the guide inside the pamphlet it says I should use this. Joey has all the symptoms but only two white spots which I am still unsure of what they are?? Anyways, the active ingredients in this are Malachite Green and Chitosan. Is this good? Has anyone used this product before.It says that it is a "spot-on" treatment and treats the fish not the water. That concerns me.....how can you cure the fish if the water is not treated??

I also could not find any Quick Cure which was another reccomendation :angry:

The other product I bought is called ANTI-FLUKE by APPLUS+ which treats gill flukes, body flukes and fish lice. The active ingredients are dimethyl, hydroxy, and trichloromethyl phosphate. I've never heard of this product before.

I'm not sure exactly what either of my fish have they seem to have EVERYTHING! I mean Joey has ragged fins, white poo on occasion, 3 white spots, he twitches, darts, coughs, yawns and scratches at the bottom! :krazy: Another thing I want to add is he seems less bothered by the parasites when the lights are ON than off.

I'll keep looking for other products if necessary, but if anyone has experience with these two and can help me out with them that would be great! Quick Cure and CLOUT will still be on my shopping list.

They are both hanging in there though, I don't see any fatality happening in the near future. THey are both actively swimming and eating normal.

Thanks for the help and sorry for long post :lol:

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Hey gumbo--

I am not going to offer any advice as I am new to treatment myself. I jsut wanted to offer my support and wish you the best of luck in treating your fish for parasites and/or what ever else they may have.

Also FYI-Quick Cure is Malachite Green and Formalin. It seems that toothless said if I could not find Quick Cure that Maracide could be used.

Good luck! :)

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Hi Gumbo,

The products you got are way better then clout is by far. The Ap is dimlin, and Trichlor needs to be used at 70* or better,its actually a pesticide and if I remember right, the hydroxy is a bacterial, but I'll have to go do a look up on it again. I don't think any one has advised you raise the tank temp up either. 79*, no more then 2 * per hour.This will allow the fish's immune sytem to work at peak/give it a boost. Don't use the f/mg product either with salt over 0.1/0.2% either, you can burn the fish. Salt & formalin can be bad news, so the lower the salt, the better.

Good info from Fantail too! :D

I disagree with the clout, its not a miracle cure, never has been and never will be. There's no such thing as a miracle cure though.

Also, Prazi is _perfectly safe_. I'm not sure where Goldfish rock is coming from implying it is not. <_< Harsher meds can be overdosed and changing meds mid stride can end in chemical soup though. Catch 22, harsh meds can push a fish over the edge.

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I forgot to add, if you use a f/mg product, you need to keep the lights out also, light de-activates the mg. Should cover tank sides as well too.

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Thank you for your post. I'm glad to hear I got some good stuff.

Which product should I use? Can I use them both at same time? no, right? I want the product that is most broad, because i am unsure of what they has exactly and I think they might have more than one problem. What is better, in your opinion, dimlin or MG?

For both products I should remove the salt or atleast limit it to .1%, correct? Also I should probably do several w/c to remove the Parasite Clear before I begin with a new treatment.

I will keep the lights off, if I use mg, thanks for the info. Also I will raise the temperature.

I've never heard of CLOUT but perhaps it works well on what parasites goldfishrock's fish had.

Do you have any idea what the three white dots on Joey's fins could be?

Thanks again for all the help, it is very appreciated! :heart

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Joey's the Oranda right? First off, Oranda's will show on the WEN things that appear to be pimples, fungus or white patch's. This in normal in wen growth. You only need keep a eye and make sure it doesn't get infected, by that I mean fuzzy like cotton, growing. Sometimes the cracks & crevices in the WEN can get stuff in them. Also a white velvet type patch on fins is a common thing also, they tend to come and go. ICH cyst resemble salt sprinkled on. Male fish also develope tubercules that will show on the leading edge of the pectoral fins and look like Ich. Stars on the cheeks also resemble ich. So a picture would be cool if possible to really help see what it is.

So at this point you have done a good round of PC & Salt? Are the fish still scratching, gasping or ?

Have you used any medicated food?

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Hi. Joey, my oranda, has three of these white dots bigger than a grain of sand. They are white little balls. One on his top fin, one on his tail fin(sorry Ialways forget the names of the fins), and on his wen ( which is most likely normal because they come and go and look like wen growth).

I have done 6 rounds of PC in Joey and in Gumbo's tanks. They are in two different tanks. They are both currently salted at .3% as well. I have also been feeding Jungle lab Internal parasite food.

Joey continues to rapidly pace back and forth the tank and corner dive scratching against the gravel. He also twitches like a dog might do if he had fleas. Yawning is occasional not as bad as before. He also blinks when he does this. His fins are a little rigged but they have been that way since I bought him 2 months ago and have not gotten worse. His color is not faded. He has been seen pooping long white stringy poo that trails behind him for a couple hours. Also, he seems more aggreivated when the lights are not on (before bedtime). He eats still hungrily and is not lethargic.

Gumbo, on the other hand, does get sort of lethargic at times. Although, he has always been not as hyper as Joey. Sometimes he will sit at the bottom and just stare out the tank for long periods of times. He may be taking naps...idk? He, like Joey, is worse on some days and better on others. His symptoms are not as severe as Joey. He yawns, coughs, twitches, has thick slime coat or did have before salt and spasms. Much less are his symptoms than Joey who seems to ALWAYS be pacing back and forth and franticaly opening and closing his mouth. A note they do not gasp at the surface much at all.

I think that sums up their signs of illness. I am VERY ready to try something new, atleast on Joey who is getting worse, since PC does not seem to be curing them. With this said, which med do you prefer I use? Have you ever used Maracide? Why does it say on the package it does not treat the water just the fish? How much stress will this do to my fish? Will these meds kill my cycle? I don't have a hospital tank at the moment :crp Should I get some bio-spira? SHould I get a hospital tank? ugh...so many problems there. It wouldn't be cycled since it would be new...plus they can't be together because Gumbo is aggressive towards JOey. :(

I don't have a scanner to scan pics rigtht now, it is at my mom's office. Maybe soon though I will.

Well anyways, thats it for now...your help through this would be great! I need direction :rolleyes: lol I'm so lost...thanks again!

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Guest goldfishrock

Hi,

Mardel products are very good, I was actually thinking of purchasing MARACIDE over CLOUT until I read that it treats the fish and not the water. This really concerned me as I don't know enough about the medication to answer my questions let alone yours. I want to clarify something. CLOUT is not a miracle cure, no medicine is and I did at no point say this. CLOUT is a very dangerous medication but if used properly it can be extremely effective and safe. I've been using it for several months. Why several months because this one pet store gives me their sick fish for free and so I take them off their hands, diagnose them, then give or sell them. I have read that people have had bad experience with CLOUT, no doubt I did too until I discovered that the temperature (Over 24C) affects the medication with in a bad way. I've only used CLOUT on Goldfish, it treats the following

Ich

Lernaea

Argulus

Leeches

Costia

Trichodina

Chilodonella

Gyrodactylus Flukes

Dactylogyrus Flukes

Digenetic Flukes

Monogenetic Flukes

Planaria

Hexamita

Parasitic Copepods

Hydra

I used PraziPond once and six fish of mine died. They developed visible lesions within 24 and horrible ones after 48 (4/6 fish were much more stronger as far as health)... now I'm not saying it's a bad medicine, my point is any medicine not used properly becomes deadly. In retrospect, I believe the medication wasn't dissolved properly (I spent two hours dissolving it and it was 3AM) and perhaps the fish ate some small pieces. This is the only thing I can think of as I did not over dose.

In regards to raising the temperature. Goldfish are cold water fish and though they can sustain high temperature, they prefer cooler water. I don't mean to be rude but I don't understand why this would boost their immune system, I'd think it would in fact lower it but I'm no expert in this area.

One final thing. If you use a medicine which you aren't familiar with and no one is around to help you then don't mix it with anything, even salt. Don't take the chance ;)

Hope your fish pulls through :)

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No disrespect intended here......

Just for good measure, I want to clarify that Prazi (in powder form) is NOT in any way toxic or harmful to fish at any reasonable dose. You can VERY safely double or triple dose it and you would still be miles and miles away from any sort of OD. Unless a microscope was employed during the treatment with prazi, theres no way one could responsibly declare that Prazi killed a fish. Instead, its the parasite that is responsible for the death.

Maracide is essentially the same thing as Quick Cure. It destroys parasites, some bacteria and some fungus ON the fish, in the water and in the gravel and filter.

With that being said, I believe this infection to be a protozoan one. Wether this be flagellates or ciliates, we cannot know unless a scope were used for diagnosis. Anyway, As goldfishrock stated above, Clout (a powerful organophosphate/insecticide) is a definite possibility for a cure. That is, if a malachite green/formalin combo does not work (Maracide, Quick Cure, Rid ich, Rid ich plus, proform C). In short, I would give MG/F a go first. Utilize salt dips before adding the new daily dose of MG/F. Then, if that didn't work, Clout might be worth a shot.... ;)

I hope this helps clarify a few things. :huh:

Paul

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OK I will do that. Should I buy a hospital tank or treat them in their original tanks? Will I have to recycle the tank after treatment?

Joey and Gumbo are both 3 inches long. How long approx. is a good time to leave them in that salt dip bath?

Do I raise the temp? I know there is some controversy there lol. :unsure:

Thanks for both your posts :)

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Guest goldfishrock

None taken!

A person at a pet store recommended to me to use Melafix as a general tonic, he basically told me to use it every couple of months to maintain health. Everyone I talked to told me that Melafix is 100% safe to use. So I went ahead and treated fish that were healthy to begin with... just cause I care for them so much and wanted to keep them in tip top shape. I never had a problem using this medication but this one time when I applied it to the main tank, the fish became nervous. They were hyper and seemed scared... their behavior changed dramatically. This was about 2-3 hours after I applied it. Nothing serious happened but I ended up doing a water change and placing the carbon back in to remove it. The next day, the fish were fine. I still believe it's safe medically cause of the ingredients but I also think it cause stress. I told the guy at the pet store and he gave me a weird look. The only happened once... I'm not sure why, perhaps it had something to do with the smell cause Melafix does have a powerful smell to it.

The point is there are so many factors other then toxicity that are rarely considered. For example, environment change caused by the medication which can stress, lower their immune system and led to illness. Or some fish may be sensitive to certain meds (e.g. Moors and CLOUT don't mix well and requires special care).

I have not encountered a single person who thinks Prazi is toxic, not one but it may have stressed my fish causing what ever parasite I had to gain an advantage. Or they may have eaten it. Toothless, you told me that you'd need to really overdose on Prazi for it to have any negative effect. But if a 2 inch fish eats even a small piece (2 mm diameter), this may be over dose you were talking about. I just don't know the ratio of weight of Prazi to mass of fish. Anyway, I think we can all agree that using a microscope to determine what it is the fish has, then treat appropriately is the best course of action cause using one med after another may alone kill your fish.

Currently I'm experimenting on, as toothless defined in another post, the "bucket to bucket" method of treatment cause it's too costly to treat all these adorable little guys with meds <_< and who knows, it may prove to be a better method for treatment! I'll try it without salt first and if that doesn't work then with salt. Take care!

:krazy:

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Guest goldfishrock

Follow Toothless advice as far as raising the temperature, he has much more experience and helped me save my fish a few months back!

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Hi guys. :D

The ONLY time you want to raise the temp when treating parasites is if its the end of a Malachite green/formalin treatment for costia, or once the salinity has been raised to 0.3% when treating ich. Other "possible scenarios could be when treating for flukes, with Prazi OR when treating for ergasilus/lernea/argulus with Dimilin. As a rule of thumb, if you don't know what parasite is the culprit, don't mess with the temperature. ;)

You could try treating them in their tank as they are. If that doesn't work, then you might have to try a sterile container for treatment while you sterilize and re-cycle your tank. I think it's worth a shot to treat IN the tank right now, though. Just be VERY vigilant about testing for ammonia and nitrItes.

Parasite meds are pretty good at setting back the bio-filter for a few days. Not to worry, use Prime or Amquel plus as per the instructions on the bottle to detoxify any amm or trItes that might appear. Keep ammonia and nitrItes below 1ppm via waterchanges THROUGHOUT the treatment.

Depending on what treatment you use and the size of the goldfish in question, You can give them salt dips between 1% and 3% for a corresponding amount of time. Malachite green/formalin meds are ideal for coupling with salt dips.

1% can go for 5-20 minutes

1.5% can go for 3-10 minutes

3% can go for 1-5 minutes

Generally, the larger the fish, the more towards the longer the length of time is what applies to them. DO NOT exceed these times.

More on salt dips: http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...?showtopic=8382

Once the fish is done with the dip, place it in a bin of freshwater until it rebounds and starts acting normally again. Usually 5-15 minutes will suffice. then, its into freshly medicated water.

I hope this helps a bit. :)

Paul

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Ok I have a plan now yay! Just one question before I get started. Do I keep the water salted on .3% when treating? OR do I remove the salt? Also should I do several waterchanges before I start maracide to get rid of all the PC that is still in the water?

Oh and to add on update there is now one red streak in JOey's tail :( it just keeps getting worse.. I really hope I catch this in time!

Brittany

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