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Oranda With Swollen Yellow Face


Guest robolb

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Hi rob, sorry, mate, have to do some chores this morning. :)

Okay, a bit of ground to cover. :)

I've done some more searching on dimetridazol and it appears to be used in aquaculture as well. In fact, a lot of first world countries have banned imports of fish that test positive to dimetridazol. That is because a lot of farmed fish from certain countries are kept in very overstocked and in poor water conditions so they routinely feed them dimetridazol to try to head off any infections but that is a no-no for food fish.

Ok, back to your problem. I agree, you might have to nuke your tank and for one day, bucket to bucket is as good as an uncycled QT but no feeding. If your QT has a filter then it may be a better option. Unless you are using a very big tub.

As for the gravel. Most people will just rinse it in water but some do boil them in water. Unless you are going to use an under gravel filter, you don't need a very deep gravel bed.

If one of the fantail is also bottom sitting, you might not be able to return any of them. :(

With dropsy treatment, we are really behind the 8-ball. The corner stone of this treatment is one or more antibiotics to hit the bacterias hard while we do other things to the water/tank/environment to support them and de-stress them.

I suppose you will have to hope that dimetridazol will do the trick, 28*C is a good temp. I would increase salt gradually to 0.1% and if dropsy is confirmed, up it again to 0.3% over 24 hrs (0.1% every 12 hrs). Forget epsom salt. It doesn't do anything other then to increase general hardness. The story about epsom salt curing dropsy is a myth.

I hope I've covered most things, please ask if you have any questions.

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captk... would it be better for robolb to go barebottom for now? at least until the fish are better? no gravel would give him a little more water in the tank, plus less worry about stuff getting into the gravel and sinking... etc etc.

just a thought. (heh i've been following this thread silently). :)

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Hi Emily, certainly, Rob can go bare bottom (okay, stop laughing!) :D

I considered that as well. It certainly has its benefits but it is also a look&feel type of issue as well and I don't want Rob to think that it is a must do. ;)

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CaptK, Thanks for all of that. Very useful.

Just one point of clarification.

If one of the fantail is also bottom sitting, you might not be able to return any of them. :(

467354[/snapback]

Not sure I follow that. If they are in the QT, main tank gets nuked, then why not return them all.

Rob

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With dropsy treatment, we are really behind the 8-ball. The corner stone of this treatment is one or more antibiotics to hit the bacterias hard while we do other things to the water/tank/environment to support them and de-stress them.

I suppose you will have to hope that dimetridazol will do the trick, 28*C is a good temp. I would increase salt gradually to 0.1% and if dropsy is confirmed, up it again to 0.3% over 24 hrs (0.1% every 12 hrs). Forget epsom salt. It doesn't do anything other then to increase general hardness. The story about epsom salt curing dropsy is a myth.

I hope I've covered most things, please ask if you have any questions.

467354[/snapback]

Now I don't claim to know everything because I have lost so few fish and don't have alot of experience dealing with Meds,and am actually somewhat proud of that.However,In cases of Dropsy,most times we Mods do tell people to use Epsom Salts. Fact is that most fish that suffer Dropsy,do not recover from it.This is what I have read,and experienced with talking to people..I happen to know quite a # of people who did save their fish from Dropsy,and the Epsom Salt was part of their regimen. I personally , in my fish experience have dealt with Dropsy three times and all my fish lived. Are you saying that it's a coincidence? I would be very interested on where you got your facts so that I could take a moment to read them. :)

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If you think going bare bottom might help, we'll give it a go. Don't care about the look, just want to save the fish. Can be done in a couple of hours, with the 3 fish in the QT while doing it.

Rob

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Well, it is a bit of an ethical issue. If they are happy to accept sick fish (and know that they are sick) then that is fine. :)

467388[/snapback]

Oh! I thought you meant we cannot return them to the main tank! :-) Of course we can't return them to the shop, I agree.

Rob

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Hi Sharon,

I know the mantra too. ;) Maracyn 1 & 2, 78*F temp, pristine water, lots of aeration, epsom salt and pray. I don't usually comment on the epsom unless I'm heavily involved because it is harmless. :)

Epsom salt does have its use in treating fish. If you imbed a grain in a pea and feed it to the fish, it will purge it. We use epsom salt in humans to treat similar symptom (in fact, this dates back to your Civil War era) so people extended this to fish and assumed that it will do good.

The problem is one of evolution. Fish hardly ever drink any water that they are kept in (hey, you won't want to either! ;) ). The key method of them taking in minerals and other chemicals is by the method known as ion transfer within their gills. They are equiped with different ion pumps for different chemicals. In fact, you see that at work when you dose a tank with salt to protect against nitrIte poisoning. The fish is tricked into absorbing the salt rather than the nitrIte ion (which uses the same ion pumps) thus preventing the fish from getting poisoned.

Now, here is the rub, fish have not evloved in a world where epsom salt (hydrated magnesium sulfate) exist naturally so it never evolved the ion pump to absorb them. In effect, it just swim through it and that's basically it. It doesn't do any harm but it doesn't do much good neither. It will raise the GH, BTW.

So when you combined with all the other things that is done to treat dropsy and with success rate being low, it is near impossible to say whether epsom salt actually helped or it is mostly the antibiotics/warmth/aeration. You just repeat the mantra and hope for the best. If Rob really wants to add epsom salt then so be it. If someone say that epsom salt will definitely cure dropsy then I beg to differ. :)

Now, salt, fluid retention and osmetic balance, that is another story. ;)

Edited by captk
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Looks like whiteface is developing dropsy. Very lethargic. Eyes starting to bulge, first signs of pineconing.

The other 2 fish have fed a little but whiteface spits out the food or just drops it.

Any ideas on how to make them feed?

Have tried a syringe with peas, but they came out like a shotgun!

Rob

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Rob, looking serious, mate. :(

Forget the peas. Try soaking and mushing up some medicated pellets (with dimetridazol) and try to feed that with a syringe as far back into their throat as possible. There is no guarantee that it will work because if they don't want to eat, they won't eat. :(

Well, we'd better start the treatment regime. Antibiotics (done), pristine water (your department), lots of aeration (check that one, Rob), warmth (yep). I would up the salt to 0.3% over 24hrs but that is up to you. You can add epsom salt if you like but that is your call. :)

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Rob, I have successfully treated two cases of dropsy using triple sulfa, the directions are in the treatment section. I will post a link.

It's up to you if you want to switch from the dimetro but whatever medication you use I personally recommend it is done in a tank with minimal bio bugs, hence the fresh water and no filter. Not everyone does it this way - others prefer to use a cycled ht tank.

Edited by Fishmerised
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Good point, Annette! I almost forgot your success stories. :D

Rob, if you catch them early, there is a much better chance of a cure. :)

Edited by captk
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Thanks guys. Will have a think about our options and the best way forward.

Happened to find this site in Australia that has anti biotic

Oz Products

What do you think about the antobiotic they stock?

Aqua Master Aquari-Cycline Tablets 25's

Will break for a conference with the fish mother to determine our next steps!

Rob

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Rob, tetracyline hydrochloride is another old fashioned antibiotic treatment. I have used it twice to treat dropsy without success. The side effects of polluting the water is amazing to see. Even when used in fresh water an orange scum or growth may occur. Also, even in fresh water it is difficult to keep ammonia under control. I am extremely biased against TH and would not recommend it to anybody. Stick with the dimetro or try triple sulfa.

On a happier note it is good to see that the m.green appears to be aiding the sore mouth area. Also good to learn that dimetro is used in aquaculture. We learn new things all the time.

Just a note on gravel. If you are going to keep it, it is best that it be no deeper than 2-3cm. Any deeper than this only provides a breeding ground for anorobic bacteria which is mostly responsible for internal infections in fish.

Edited by Fishmerised
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Thanks all.

Taking them out into a QT. Will treat with Melafix, which has been recomended for dropsy and the internal infection. Can also be used with the Anti Biotic.

We'll keep you posted.

Rob

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Whiteface died last night. Went downill very quickly.

The other two are doing well in the QT being treated with Melafix.

Plan to leave them there a week, whilst we clean out the main tank, and replace with new gravel. Will not clean out the filter. Our LFS advised best not to, so as to maintain good bacteria. The bad bacteria will die off anyway due to no fish in the tank so they say.

Rob

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I'm so sorry, Rob. That was a bit of a surprise as whiteface wasn't the one that you were really concerned about. :( Unfortunately, that is the problem with bacterial infections, they can creep up on you and it does not have to develop into dropsy before it kills.

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