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Oranda With Swollen Yellow Face


Guest robolb

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Hi,

Have just switched from Tropical back to Goldfish a couple of weeks ago. Have 2 Orandas and a Fantail. One of the Orandas is not looking good over the last day or so. Any help appreciated.

Specs.

300L (80 gal) tank

3 fish about 5 " long incl tail.

Canister Filter = Aqua Vital 1200 (1200L/Hr)

Additional Powerhead to circulate water

Some plants, Anubia on logs.

Params.

Tank Ph7

Tap Water PH 7

Ammonia = 0

Salt = 0.04%

Nitrite = 0

Nitrate = 20

KH = 0

Behaviour. Fish (Oranda) started bottom sitting, but would feed OK, active when feeding. Face seems swollen, upper lip like an inflated moutache. Also the face area seems puffy and yellow in colour. Fish is normally a clear white, with just red along the top and of course the 'hat'.

Diet is peas (50% of time) and shrimp pellets (HBH) and HBH Goldfish Nibblets. Food always gets soaked before feeding. No floating food used. Fish normally feed from our hands.

Having had trouble with swim bladder in the past with Pearl Scales, we wanted to act quick before anything major sets in.

Have done 40% water change, added Epsom salts ( in case of digestion problem) and also anti biotic in case of parasites (Dinmetco 6grams).

Have also stopped feeding today and will hold for 36 hours.

My wife is worried he is getting something bad. Also feeing a bit guilty as she feeds them a lot (2 x day) and is woried she may have caused damage.

Any help advice appreciated. Could not find any similar symptoms on the board.

Rob

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Not sure if this is an emergency for the fish, but it might be for me!.

My wife thinks her favorite fish will die and yelled at me for not putting my post in the emergency forum :-))

If you can help, please read my post in the disease forum.

Thanks

Rob

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Hi Rob! Welcome to Koko's!!

Sorry to hear about your fish :(

I can't help you out at all, but hopefully someone will be online soon who can! (I did notice it's 3am or something in the US).

Someone might want to know how much salt you added though.

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Hi Rob, it seems everything is ok with your water params.

One thing that concerns me is mixing epsom with regular salt. Basically, it's not recommended to use both together for some water chemistry reason that is too technical for me.

I wouldn't use epsom for bottom sitting behaviour. For constipation a grain or two of epsom embedded in a pea and then consumed by the fish is the best treatment.

Also, how long have you been salting to .04% and is there any particular reason for this? Some fish don't tolerate higher doses of salt over extended periods.

As for the fish turning a yellowish colour, I can think of no medical reason for this but white fish can develope a yellowish tinge. One of my pure white orandas now has an off/white, yellowish wen. Another fish I bought for it's unusual colouration, a buttercup yellow rather than gold, ended up turning completely white on me. I've noticed that a lot of green food (especially spirulina) can increase yellowish tinge in white fish. (A bit like people who drink too much carrot juice turning orange)

The swollen upper lip could be an injury or perhaps your fish has a mouth ulcer. I'm not familiar with Dinmetco but a mild antibacterial medication could be of assistance.

Over the next few days I would do partial water changes until the epsom and salt are reduced to half there current levels, if no improvement then I would start an antibacterial treatment. Hope this has helped.

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Annette has given you some very good advice.

I only wanted to add that there are very good medicated food available for goldfish. Medi-Gold and Metro-Med are two very good ones. They are available from Goldfish Connection and are a good thing to have on hand. I have found them to be more effective than adding antibiotics to the water and they don't affect the cycle of the tank.

Here is a link to Medi-Gold

http://www.goldfishconnection.com/shop/det...uctId=8&catId=5

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Hi and welcome to koko's.

I don't have alot to add to the above posters. I agree with not using epsom and regular salt together.

I would like to confirm that the salt is 0.04% or is it 0.4%?

Also I am combining your thread from the emergency, having 2 threads running can cause confusion among the members.

Hope the little guy feels better.

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Good idea Andrea, only one problem. I checked Rob's profile and he lives in Australia.

Rob, Goldfish Connection does not ship to Australia for customs reasons. Two different little birdies even tried to smuggle it in for me but the sniffer dogs must have found it because customs confiscated it and send me a letter.

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The only thing I have to add is that a 1200 LT per hour system is actually only 317 gph...on an 80 gallon tank, that isn't even half of what is needed. Now, some people will say anything over 5X is overkill...but you haven't even hit that yet.

I would be inclined to buy another system, something with a 500gph or about 1900 liters ph to add to this and make sure it has plenty of space to add bio sponge and bio max or something to help with the good bacteria.

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Your right of course Persimmon, I would recommend a minimum of 1500 l/ph filtration for an 300l tank. At the moment though Rob's tank is understocked with only 3 fish and his water params are in good order so I doubt it's the under-filtration that is causing an issue right now. Thanks for pointing it out though.

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Thank you all for the replies.

Regarding the filtration, as pointed out, there are only 3 fish and all params are fine. I asked our local fish store about the 10x volume rule on filter capacity and he thought that was excessive, mentioning that filter capacity was not the only factor, but media volume was just as important. He could have sold me another filter, but did not.

My filter has loads of media, as he always advises adding extra. But I accept that goes against the general advice here :-(

With the salt, I have not been adding any, prior to the Epsom Salt. When tested (before the Epsom) it read 0.04%. My test kit states 0.1% is normal. So are we saying that 0.04% is too high? If so what should be 'normal'. ?

The only salt that gets added in the normal course of water changes is with my water conditioner. I use Start Right A and B. The A is an Ammonia and chlorine neutraliser. The B is a de-ioniser and has electrolyte salts.

He is still bottom sitting this morning, but otherwise looks OK. Wil see how he goes during the day. Keeping fingers crossed. Oh, when I added the Epsom salt, I put in about 100g.

I'll keep you posted on progress. Thanks for your help.

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It may be me, but I am a bit confused. Are you using the reg. salt with the epsom's?

And 0.04% salt is not too high, I think the above poster got confused thinking it was 0.4%..............

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It may be me, but I am a bit confused.  Are you using the reg. salt with the epsom's? 

And 0.04% salt is not too high, I think the above poster got confused thinking it was 0.4%..............

466052[/snapback]

As I mentioned, the only salt I add is during water changes (electrolyte) at the rate of 5ml per 10 l. That gave us 0.04% which I believe is below the norm. If indeed the norm is supposed t be 0.1%. I added 100g of Epsom salts in case it was a digestion problem.

Just got back home, and checking progress. Yellow face still bottom sitting. Decided to try a feed, as they have been fasting 24 hrs. All three feeding well. Yellow face almost seems to have a bit of damage to his mouth. Aggressively feeding but drops some.

I'll try to post a picture, if I can work out how to. One normal fish and one of yellow face. (As he looked just like the 'normal' fish til a couple of days ago).

One other thing. Temperature. I wonder if that could cause a problem? Have always had difficulty keeping it low. (Sydney is a hot place).

Coming home today the tank temp was 30 C. Did not leave any Air Con on. WE normally have Air Con keeping room temp down to about 25-26 C. But even then, the tank temp sits at about 28-29 C. Go figure! Must be the lights that keep the temp up. 3 x 30W 3 foot tubes. Have thought about getting a chille unit to cool the water. Do Goldfish have problems at this temp do you think?

I'll sign off to take some pics.

Thanks to all for help so far.

Rob

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Just Trying to figure out how to do the images. Hopefully this will work. Here goes.

Yellow Face, Normal fish and view of tank with yellow face 'bottom sitting'

Hope I have done this right. We should have the 'yellow face' who looks a bit swollen in the cheeks and above the mouth. Then his pal who looks normal, then the tank, just so you can get an idea of their home, with Yellow Face bottom sitting in the foreground.

Any help in diagnosing yellow face's problem most appreciated.

Didn't work. Got this error message.

Sorry, dynamic pages in the tags are not allowed

Can anyone tell me what that means?

Rob

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I think you need 200 posts before you can post a picture but a link to photobucket (or other) does work. A picture would be really helpful.

Sorry I misread your information about the salt levels. They are fine.

I don't think water temperature is an issue. Most people would agree that fancy goldfish prefer the higher temperatures. I'm in Sydney too and our tank temps are around 28C. I have 20 indoor goldfish and none have issue with the temps, although I don't use the aquarium lights at all in summer because they push the temps up even more.

From your description of 'damage', it is sounding more likely that yellowface has an injury. It is great that he is still eating, hopefully the bottom sitting is nothing more than natural behaviour when a fish is recovering from injury.

In case it is an injury, scrutinise all the tank ornaments, etc for possible culprits. Injuries can also occur from getting stuck behind filter intake tubes and other squishy places.

Would be interested to hear more about that medication you are using, Dinmetco. ie. manufacturer, ingredients, what it is recommended to treat. As you probably know, there is not a great range of medication in Australia so anything new on the market is interesting.

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Trying again with the pics.

Yellow Face

yellowface6gl.jpg]image shack[/url]

Normal fish

normal4bv.jpg]image shack[/url]

Tank

tank2yn.jpg]image shack[/url]

Edited by robolb
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What a lovely tank you have and nice fishies too. Congratulations!

I imagine that the fish sitting to the right of the tank is yellowface, his dorsal fin is down which indicates he is not a happy chappy.

The good news is that I think the yellow face is just normal colour variation, no problem there. His chubby cheeks look normal to me too. In truth, yellowface's face is more like a traditional oranda face than the other two redcaps. The only thing that looks a bit odd to me is his chin or throat, it may be normal for him or it could be a bit swollen?

Is his mouth always in this open position? That is not normal and if it is he definately has some swelling in his mouth or throat. Please try to check inside his mouth and see if you can see anything, either some ulcers or cotton wool type growth. The easiest way to check is to hold his head just above water level, fish automatically open their mouths, it's some type of reflex.

I wonder if other members can see something I'm missing.

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Fishmerised,

Thanks for your comments. Re his colour, he was the same colour as the 'normal' fish till a couple of days ago. Of the others, 1 in a redcap and the other a fantail.

His mouth is not always open, like the others he seems to constantly open and close it. He also loves to dig in the gravel, really goes for it. Though he has stopped now, maybe due to mouth damage?

We have just checked inside his mouth. Looks normal.

Trying to think of other things that might cause problems. My wife feeds them by hand, she worries she may have infected him somehow. Always washes her hands.

We also have a fair bit of algae in the tank, probably due to heat. Glass and gravel is clear, but it collects on the top of the rocks, wood, plants etc.

Only thing that has changed recently, was the addition of Seachem Flourish a few days ago, which is organic carbon for the plants. 25ml first time of use then 5ml per day.

Hope we can figue out what is wrong with him :-(

As you are in Sydney, my wife suggests you pop around for lunch or dinner :-)) She is a great Thai cook!

Rob

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Umm, yumm, I do love Thai food too, be careful or I might just take your wife up on that invitation. :) We should really try to organise a get together for the Sydney members, but that's another topic.

Rob, I'm going to be very unscientific now (like always). It seems certain that yellowface is sick. His symptoms are non-specific other than it appears to be an internal infection of some sort. If I were in your situation this is what I would do:-

I would move yellowface to a separate tank or container at least 40L in capacity and fill it with fresh water, install no filter. The idea is to discourage the growth of any bio bugs so the medication is more effective.

When we don't know what we are treating the idea is to go for a broad spectrum medication and the one I use is Multi Cure by Aqua Master. It treats white spot, fungus and velvet disease but the ingredient acriflavin is also antibacterial. I have even used this product to treat sub-dermal bleeding.

Dose water and monitor params daily using a treatment like Prime if necessary to detoxify any ammonia/nitrIte that may appear. After 3 days change the water totally and repeat treatment. Feed sparingly during treatment. This is my regime for mystery diseases and it has a good success rate. The only other treatment I would subsitute for Multi Cure would be a triple sulpha medication.

I'm afraid that is the best advice I can offer, although other members may have other ideas so wait until you get more feedback. I will try to contact captk (who may be away) as he has an advanced understanding of water chemistry/disease and treatment.

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Fishmerised,

Thanks again. Very helpful. We'll try what you suggest. Bought a QT the other day just in case we might need it. Have a small Oranda in it to cycle it and a few small plants. Would you suggest we strip it all out, including the gravel for QT use? Probably best I think.

You say fill the QT with fresh water. Presume you mean fresh treated water (to remove chlorine etc) rather than water that has been standing for a day. Is that OK? Tap water, treated, then the fish goes in straight away.

We'll get down to Auburn Aquarium in the morning for the meds. Will also check to see if US members have been online with any other ideas.

If you are passing Homebush/Rhodes area.....lunch or dinner is on! :-) Really apprecaite your help big time.

Are there many members in Sydney? Happy to host a get together sometime.

Rob

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I can see breeding stars on his gills, so deffinately a male. His lips do look a bit swollen to me but cant really tell.

Something I noticed with the main tank. I dont see any added aeration which with given the temperatures would be needed.

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I can see breeding stars on his gills, so deffinately a male. His lips do look a bit swollen to me but cant really tell.

Something I noticed with the main tank. I dont see any added aeration which with given the temperatures would be needed.

466309[/snapback]

Sandy. Didn't know it was that easy to tell male from female!

The tank has good aeration. Nice long airstone (60-70 cm) and poweful air pump. It was probably turned off for the photo. Also have an additional powerhead low down to circulate water, though we don't use it much fearing that the water swirl will be too strong for the fish.

Rob

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A cycled tank is great for QT but I prefer a bare uncycled tank for hospital use. Yep, treated tap water is what I was referring to. I've heard good things about Auburn Aquarium, how do you rate it? Sadly, :( I don't get in that way very often, I live at St Marys. Now with all these freeways and motorways you go from one side of Sydney to the other and miss everything inbetween!

We have a few greater Sydney members and a couple in Canberra, Melbourne, Perth and QLD too. Altogether there are about a dozen active ozzies on board.

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Hi Rob, Annette calls and I obey! :D

Okay, lots of good advice from everyone. I can see that the basic water chem is good but I'm a bit surprised that KH=0. While that is not necessary a red alert, it does mean that the water has no pH buffering capacity and it can swing and crash with little notice. So you might want to retest that and make sure the test kit is not old. Filter capacity probably borderline and more is always better with goldies. :)

Okay, from the pic, the wen is growing super fast, certainly the area from the upper lip looks like additional wen growth (big diff from first to second pic). Even the lower lips area seems to be part of the growth pattern. Rob, can you please check your food to see if they have high level of beta-carotene. What % are protein and fat?

Can you also check his gills for me. Do they look fresh meat red or pale pink/grey/brown? Are they in a nice fan shape?

Has he poop lately? What does it looks like? Normal color and texture or white, long and stringy? Bubbles?

OBTW, I think it is a he because I think I can make out some breeding stars on his gill plate. ;)

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