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Lying At The Bottom Not Moving.


Kissy

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I've already given them two doses of parasite clear by Jungle Labs. Does that treat gill flukes? Its been about five days (I think?) since the second dose and I haven't done any water changes since.

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If it has prazi and dimlin in it it should cover fluke, anchor worm, fish lice nicely. I'm not sure about ich at this point, and yes, its possible for ich to be on gills and not seen without a microscope. One of the badder points of ich in regards to koi that one, it doesn't show on koi like it does on goldies for the most part. <_< So it is possible not to show without a scrape &/or gill snip & scope. Sometimes the problem with buying a medication like you did is that it tends to be smaller doses then what you would give of the real thing I think. For instance, formalin straight is a really bad and harsh chem, so care must be taken and absolutly no salt, but at the same time, Proform C, a formalin & MG mix, can be used up to 0.3% salt carefully, therefore we try to only stay in the 0.1% salt, no higher then 0.2 as some fish can be more sensitive then others and get burned still.

I really think that is why such things as a mixed med can take longer & more doses though. You might want to do a repeat dosage with a good water change at this point. Just try to keep the nitrates a bit low, so long as they don't go over the 40 ppm range at this point.

Your in the usa right? Get a catalog from Foster & Smith, they do sell dimlin and prazi pro both along with the straight medications, MG, Meth Blue, Acriflavins and Metronadizole Chrystals. IMHO, so far, they have had the better prices on medications and some of the better brands out. The only other place I shop for meds is Pond RX, between the two I can get larger containers and everything I need. Look to the pond sections for bigger bottles of some products at F&S as it will actually save you $$ there in the long run. Dimlin is not too bad, its the prazi that kills the $$.... :(

There's a couple of other products out for fluke, but what ever you do, do not use superverm, it kills goldfish, its a koi only related product and even then, used with the wrong directions, it can burn koi. :(

I'd keep the salt up 0.3% and re-dose, might want to add in a couple of salt dips/bath's, they might have produced a bit of excess slime and if thats the case, the meds will have a hard time getting at the parasites. Try a bath about 0.4-0.5% first. Lots of o2. If they seem to tolerate it ok, then gradually bring the salt up a bit. Easy does it ok. :D When they seem to lay over a bit, back in the tank though!

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Okay, I'm at my grandma's house right now so I am not positive, but I don't think the parasite clear has dimilin in it. I know it has metro and prazi in it, and I think one other medication. I'll check back with you tonight. Can you get any of those meds at a store? I can't really afford shipping because I don't have a job. I have prazi-pro, but I believe its not as strong as prazi. If its that weird gill ich, won't the salt kill it like with the body ich?

I'll do the water change and meds tomorrow, and the next day a bath for the two. How does that sound? How much of a water change should I do? I'll post nitrates either tonight or tomorrow. Should I continue with the parasite clear, or go for the prazipro? I actually had the prazipro sent to me from my last (sick) fish because I have never seen it anywhere here. For the bath... .4-.5%would be 4-5 teaspoons per gallon, right? How long should I keep them in it? Should I but the air stone in the bowl for the bath? Salt baths and dips always make me a bit nervous.

Thanks for all your help, Kathy :)

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"Debris" is the term I used to refer to casts in he tank and "casts" are, well, like something sloughed off... some of GN's poopy looks more like the casings of sausage without the filling... like, when he eats, he has semi-normal poop (some food waste included) but if he has not eaten, he still goes poopy - i.e. extrudes material - often and regularly, but it is clear and empty, it is wide and it breaks upo easily creating debris - basically junk - clouding and dirtying the tank.

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This is similar to the poop I am seeing. I'm not sure if its really this without a pic tho. Does this mean its possible that the brownish specs/colors are not from eating? I came home today and found Mica with a 3.5" poopy hanging off her :\ Does that mean she is getting worse? Odie seems to be a tiny bit more active than Mica.

Nitrates are at 10, so I'm safe. I'm still going to do a water change tomorrow to add more meds; I just need to know how much.

Active ingrediants of Parasite Clear: praziquantel; N-[[(4-Chlorophenyl)amino]carbon1]-2, 6-difluorbenzamide; metronidazole; acriflavine.

Active ingrediants of Prazi Pro: oxybispropanal (as an inert solubilozing agent) and <5% praziquantal by weight.

I have no idea what most of that means, but hopefully some one will

Edited by Kissy
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The difluorbenzamide is dimlin. :D I'm not sure how much of the meds they put in that in regards though and math is not a good subject or one of my strong points sadly! <_<

There is a alternative to dimlin, over the counter at the vets, program that they sell for dogs, its dimlins cousin, Lufenuron. Fluke tabs is another.

http://www.koivet.com/html/articles/articl...=73&category=13

Actually I think the fish are holding there own. Sometimes it takes a bit for medications to get a grip and get the job done Kissy. We being anxious of course want results now.... ;) Yesterday was even better,lol! So no, I wasn't thinking getting worse by any means. I do believe I read the post also. As long as they are eating and getting a bit of the medicated food in, its a good sign.

Isn't there any instructions on the box? I've not seen the product personally. With me having Koi, I generally go for the bottles of straight stuff as I order my meds in and can cover larger quantity water gl's. (pond or tank) Probably best to do a 50% WC then.

I think 15 to 20 minutes, or until they lay over is more then enough time, stronger dosage of salt. Yes to the airstone.

Since you have been doseing with the parasite clear, I would do another round, the acriflavin will cover some other things. According to the dimlin article, you can't overdose it.

http://koivet.com/html/articles/articles_d...ame=Medications

There's two types of fluke though, gill flukes and body flukes. One is a egg layer, the other is a livebearer. One is a bit harder then the other too to get rid of I understand.

Your welcome Kissy!

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Thanks!! Whew so relieved I've got dimilin. I had to do a waterchange before I left to go hiking and I couldn't get the internet til 5 so I estimated the waterchange and came pretty close. I think I did like a 40% water change before adding another tablet of meds. Do you think that was enough? They seem a little more listless today since the water change, so I'm hoping they'll perk up by tomorrow morning so I can give them their salt bath. I'll let you know how that goes.

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HI Kissy,

I had Captk do a read through as I felt something wasn't clicking into place. Someplace along the line I think we have been somewhat focusing on all the little things individually and not the whole picture here. Several mistakes being made as well.

My apologies for not catching some of this and doing complete read back every time.

Lets go through some of the steps taken from the start. When you bring a fish home from the pet store, they should never be left for any amount of time in the water they came home from the store in. A fresh bucket of water with air stone, matched to temp, the fish should go from bag to bucket, by hand with no transferral of the water from the bag. The ph change is less stressful then a ammonia build up is. From the bucket to tank by hand with no transferral of water also and matched temp.

When you did the fishless cycle, a complete 100% water change should have been done before the fish where placed in the tank. None of us caught that one!

Symptoms, though they can resemble parasite infection, without a scrape & scope to verify, wild quesses are not 100%. Gill checks need to be done right off. There's also the possibility of gill bacteria's or disease that is much the same symptom as fluke. Still, they would flash to some extent with fluke.

So going over this with Henry, he suggested giving them a break from the meds and see if they perk up. Do keep the water pristine as possible, but lets get them a breather from meds. We'll let them de-stress for a few day's, meds can be stressful as well. How does this sound? Monitor the behavior of course, and feeding.

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Just one thing to add, please check out their gills. They should be fresh meat red, not pale pink/brown/grey. They should also be nicely shaped and not slimey, tattered or eroded. :)

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Okay...

I didn't know a lot of that stuff! Are you sure the best thing to do would have been to transfer them to new water? I thought a huge pH jump from 7 to 8 would kill them. Would if have been better to have done what I did, but occasionally add a bit of prime to detoxify any ammonia? When I was acclimating them, I used their water and my water. When I put them in the tank, I used a nylon net so no yucky LFS water could get in.

I remember reading about a fishless cycle that you only needed a large waterchange..I had no idea it had to be 100%! The nitrates weren't too high...so hopefully not much damage was done there?

I'm off to dump some carbon into their filter.

Their gills are a nice dark pinkish red. I think the outside looks okay...they might be slighly tattered, but I think that might be me being paranoid.

Edited by Kissy
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Ohhh...is it weird that my carbon smelled like sulfer? I grabbed a sleave of aquaclear carbon and was rinsing it..it smelled like sulfer x_X It smelled a little better when I was done...but is that bad?

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Okay, a few things need tidying up. :)

When you transport a fish for some distance, you are dealing with a range of evils. If you get too focused on one detail, you loose the overall picture and can do more harm that way.

With a high pH, the ammonia in the bowl is much more toxic. As long as you equalise the temperature (float the bag in tank), the pH adjustment is not nice but bearable. What you need to make sure is that the fish goes into a pristine environment with lots of aeration. The change is over in a moment. By prolonging the adjustment over 5 hours, you are exposing them to toxic level of ammonia and nitrAte all that time.

When food rots, they generate ammonia but the process of decomposition also creates other toxic compounds. The water is not pure by any definition just because it has no ammonia or nitrIte. A 100% water change (but leaving the filter alone) is necessary to remove such chemicals.

Carbon should never smell. If it smells like rotten egg gas then it has been colonised by aeromonas (or bad bacterias). Throw them away and get a new bag.

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Ah crap. Yes the bag of carbon was brand new and I used it anyway. I woke up and went to check on them thismorning and I think Odie is getting pop eye or something. One of his eyes looks infected...its slightly yellow and cloudy, and there is a spot where it is more cloudy white. His eye has changed shape and comes to a point where the white cloudiness is. How should I get the icky carbon out???

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Just remove the bag. They are still in a bag, right?

You have to start treating with antibiotics ASAP. Maracyn 1 and/or 2. Medicated food like medigold.

BTW, popeyes by definition are both eyes but you can still get one eye being infected.

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No more medigold :\ It expired several months ago and I threw it out...I can't order any more. Ugh more meds. Good news is that I do have the two maracyns. I hope all these meds don't make them worse :\ I removed the carbon back this morning after I saw the post, but won't there still be ickies in the tank? Would it be best to dose both maracyns?

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Crap again. I added the two tablets of maracyn 2, but right after that I realized I had no more. I have enough maracyn for one round, I should have used that!! I guess I'm going to have to beg to go to the LFS tomorrow again.

Do you think the pop eye was caused by the bad carbon? :(

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Hi Kissy,

Start Maracyn-1 as well and then carry on with the maracyn-1. It is okay to dose with M1 & M2 together.

Hard to say about the bad carbon. To tell you the truth, so much has happened since you bought the fish that it is hard to guage what is doing what to whom any more.

Let's just hope that the antibiotics will have the desired effect and hopefully, we shall be back in control rather than just going on a rollercoaster ride.

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Okay... so I should dose maracyn 1 tonight also. Should I just forget about maracyn 2 and stick with maracyn 1, or would it be best to try to continue with both? I'm afraid all these meds will make them stressed.

Poor fishies :(

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Will the maracyn's damage my cycle? It doesn't say anything on the box, but I don't want this cycle to die..that would be the worst thing, and its really the only thing going right for these little guys.

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Yes, the antibiotics will knock the cycle around. You fish needs the meds now so you don't really have much choice. Just watch the ammonia and nitrIte. Dose with ammonia binders and salt as necessary.

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Okay. I'll test the params every day (is that good enough?) and I've got a big bottle of prime and a carton of aquarium salt on hand.

Oh good God I wonder how I'm doing okay in my math class. I DON'T have enough maracyn 1 for one round. I do have enough to make it until tuesday afternoon at the latest tho. I'll definately have a ride to the LFS by then. I might as well buy both while I'm there. Oh well, there goes my allowance I just earned. Its for a good cause tho.

Edited by Kissy
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Mm..I don't think so? It was pre-packaged in plastic, but I can't remember if it was totally air tight or not. I guess there could have been a hole? The carbon, along with some other stuff, came with a couple aquaclears I bought from a member here, so I'm not sure. They seem to be doing alright thismorning. Mica has learned that fingers at the surface mean food, and when she sees them sometimes she smacks at my fingers :) Her poop is becoming more solid, but I haven't seen any that I'm sure is Odies.

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I coulnd't get to the LFS today....hopefully I can go tomorrow. I went ahead and gave the second dose of Maracyn 1 and skipped 2 since I didn't have any left. Should I continue dosing 2 after I get some or should I just forget it and stick with 1?

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