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Parasite?


fantailfan1

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I'm taking the liberty to post a few of her "bug" shots she sent to me yesterday. From the pics and the description of it's movement, I would lean towards Chilodonella. But, Paul, we need your expert eyes.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y128/grgt...47_edited-1.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y128/grgt...46_edited-1.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y128/grgt...45_edited-1.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y128/grgt...44_edited-1.jpg

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Thanks Chico :D

Well, from first glance, it certainly does look like chilodonella. First, I have a few questions:

What is the magnification of these images?

Do these guys ever move in a spiral or spinning fashion? Kinda like they are lost and can't make up their minds?

Are they flattened like a pancake when seen from a side angle?

Does your camera have an AVI (video) setting? Is there any chance of getting a video of these critters?

They certainly look very similar to chilo. But, movement of these guys is critical in identifying them.... ;)

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I just got through chatting with Chico and from the description she gave me (verbatim from your previous chat with her), you most definitely have chilodonella running around in your tank. Possibly in ALL of your tanks if careful consideration for cross-contamination hasn't been observed.

The protocol for treating chilo starts with a 0.3% to 0.45% salt solution for 2-3 weeks. Personally, I would add acriflavin to this regime right off the bat. They act somewhat synergistically.

If that still doesn't do it, then its on to malachite green/formalin. I have been told that Proform C is the best mixture to use (available at pondRX.com). If proform C is used, treat at 1 and 1/2 times the suggested dosage on the bottle.

If even the Proform C proves to be useless, potassium permanganate at a level of 2-4ppm OR Chloramine T dosed according to your pH and total hardness should be tried.

Salt dips are a great addition to any of the treatments listed above. Give the infected fish a 1.5% salt dip for up to 5 minutes before palcing them into clean, unmedicated water. Let them recoup for 10-20 minutes and then add the prescribed dose of meds.

In all honesty, there are some pretty tough strains out there and total eradication can prove to be a long, hard battle (if even possible). I myself am battling chilo in my tanks right now. These are tough buggers that seem to have built up resistancies to most of the meds we use.

Paul

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Oh, great, welcome back--what terrific news.

Fortunately I only have one tank (plus my lil babies but that's another thread :heart ).

So you're positive it's chilo? Of course you are--you said "most definitely". :(

Now as far as treatment:

I am doing this in an uncycled, sterile tank--correct? I'll ahve to look into acriflavin as I have no idea what it is or where I can find it. Is it used similarly to Quick Cure where I would change 100% of the water daily for ?X? amount of days, or continuously for 2-3 weeks along with a salted tank?

I am planning on treating them in a ten gallon. Is that OK? I think I will also get the 20 gallon up and running as I need some clean tank water for my fry!! :D (Not for them to live in yet but just for doing water changes.)

I guess the good news on all of this (I'm trying to look on the bright side) is that once their new tank comes in I'll have lots of time to get it cycled!

I'm going to take another look under the scope tonight. There was another couple of bugs that looked alot alike but yet a bit different from each other. (I know that doesn't make alot of sense.) But chico and I were trying to determine if they were just rotifers or maybe flukes.

Thanks again for the help. Chico's been great in your absense!! And welcome back--we all really missed you!! ;)

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We just got a video of one of them moving around. It's not perfect but it's decent. My husband is going to try and figure out how to upload it.

Hope he can get it to work.

Oh and one more question:

I was reading up on chilo in FAncy Goldfish and it said that the most effective treatment is salt and he's never seen a resistant straint. Is this outdated info?

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Definitely chilo. Your description of it is right on the money.

Yep, Chico is fast becoming my "protege". Once you get the hang of identifying one bug, the rest are easy to figure out. Especially with chilo. Since its about 30 to 70 microns, you can establish an eye for the micron lengths of all the other bugs, good and bad.

As for flukes, they are very similar looking to rotifers. However, flukes are MUCH more elastic and spastic in their movements. Not to mention the fact that at 400X, their haptens (hooks) are very visible. Another point to ponder when looking at rotifers and flukes is that if you see cilia (tiny hair-like structures) beating rapidly, it is NOT a fluke. But, rotifers can retract their coronas (ciliated mouthpart) so that you cannot see the cilia beating. But, if you follow one for a while, they usually expose their cilia for you to see. Also, if it moves like and inchworm (gripping with both ends), its not a fluke. Flukes can only grasp with one end of their body (the haptens).

Check out the parasite look-a-like thread that is pinned at the top of the disease diagnosis page. You'll find more info for figuring out wich is wich.........

One thing I should point out is the fact that your fry might very well have this chilo to deal with. Even if they were removed frm the tank before they hatched. So, whatever you do, DO NOT cross contaminate betweent he fry tank and the main tank. Eventually, you'll have to treat the fry. But wait til they are larger and you can verify that chilo is indeed in their container/tank.

By the way, you girls have been busy in the chatterbox, huh? ;) Hahahaha. Too funny, man.

Paul

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One thing I should point out is the fact that your fry might very well have this chilo to deal with. Even if they were removed frm the tank before they hatched. So, whatever you do, DO NOT cross contaminate betweent he fry tank and the main tank. Eventually, you'll have to treat the fry. But wait til they are larger and you can verify that chilo is indeed in their container/tank.

By the way, you girls have been busy in the chatterbox, huh? ;) Hahahaha. Too funny, man.

446107[/snapback]

Heck ya!! We know a good thing when we see it!! :heart

Unfortunately the fry are in water from my infected tank. It's the only tank I have and that's what koko suggested I use (to her credit, she may not have realized I had parasites in my tank right away. I guess I may have been better off dechlorinating some tap water? :( ). I am ordering some BioSpira to get my 20 gallon up and running. She said I won't need to change water for a few weeks. Hopefully Ill ahve some better water to use by then.

:idont

I'll take another look tomorrow at my rotifer/fluke issue. I was really concentrating on those little round buggers tonight.

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Well apparently "Dorothy, who is actually a male :o , isn't too affected by these parasites. He continues to chase the ryukin around the tank! Now that he's got this breeding thing figured out I guess he wants to try again.

Anyway I know that chasing can really stress out the female. Do you think I should treat them in separate 10 gallons? I just don't want her to be stressed form the chasing, the treatment AND the parasites. :krazy:

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chico--

Thank you sooooooo much for posting my video for me!! :heart And for all the help you've given me in diagnosing this nasty! I truly appreciate it!! :flowers

And back to my fish. Today "Dorothy" has a few more dilated veins in his tail and fins. He's been doing quite a bit of chasing. I think he's tired himself out as he's been resting for a while. I'm assuming the dilated veins are from stress of chasing/parasites? No red on body at all.

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Yep, red veins in the tail are a definite sign of stress. When the redness starts showing in the body and base of the fins, THATS when septicemia (internal bacterial infection) should be suspected. Otherwise the redness is just the immune system kicking into "overdrive" kind-of-thing.

I'm sure all the extra waterchanges are whats triggering all the breeding behavior. Temperature fluctuations can add to this as well. Either way, as long as it your girl doesn't seem to be overly stressed, like not eating or a definite decline in behavior, all should be ok. But, definitely have a back-up plan ready. Sheeez, as if you didn't need another factor injected into an already precarious sitiation, right? :rolleyes:

Keep it up! In the end, even if you cannot find a definite cure for your strain, at least you'll find the best remedy to use to at least control them. It could very well come down to providing as many gallons as possible and a round of whatever med works best every so often. From what I've read about pondkeepers, their best hope is maintaining low enough numbers of parasites to allow the fish to at least live a somewhat normal life. Of course, pond fish are much larger and can handle a small parasite load pretty well. The water just needs to be kept as good as possible.......

Paul

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The female doesn't seem overly stressed. She eats fine and when the male gets tired, she continues to swim. The also like to ahng out in the log together. :heart

So do you think the first line of defense should be salt and acriflavin? If so, where can I get acriflavin (I've looked on-line and haven't had much luck)? Is it something I'd do right along with the salt for 2-3 weeks, or for 4-5 days at a time with breaks in between?

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You can run acriflavin, continually, along with any salt % your fish can handle. But, it's effectiveness is something I do not know, personally. It's suppose to be a one-two punch. I've read a lot of stuff about sporadic success with it for treating chilo and other ciliates like tetrahymena and epistylus and such. But, "sporadic" and "sometimes" seem to be the key words in most of those mentions. Maybe there needs to be a regime that utilizes one med one day, total waterchange, a couple hours lag-time and then a different med be used. I'm wondering if chilo can effect different defenses at different times, or it just beefs up its cell wall in the presence of any med in general. Thats a question for Erik Johnson and his peers. Theyre leaps and bounds beyond what I'll ever be. If you want to give acriflavin and salt a go, you can get water soluable acriflaving from here: http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/shopping.html that place has EVERYTHING. Good source of meds there........ ;)

I think it's going to be a game of trial and error as to what works best for your strain. The most important factor in a 100% eradication is sterilization of any equipment in between additions of meds and such. A bucket of heavily PP-ed (potassium permanganate) water sitting next to work areas and tanks is the best recourse for that.

In this day and age of resistancies and immunities, it quite tough to eliminate free-living species of parasites like chilo, tetra, costia and trichodina. It only takes one survivor, somewhere on the fish or in the water, to allow a reinfestation. Since they propagate by binary fission, that single organism can become many within a matter of days. Salt used to be reported to be the best bet for chilo, trich and costia but that is proving to be quite wrong as of recently. The easy ones are ich (salt does them in), fish lice, anchor worm, gill maggots (ergasilus), and flukes. Dimilin and Prazi knock them down with the quickness of ease.

Paul

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If you're unsure about acriflavin, should we try something else? Proform C? These are obviously tough little buggers and I want to hit them hard. Just a thought--is this something I could bounce off of Rick at Goldfish Connection? Maybe I could e-mail him the situation and get his opinion?

Also what's the best treatment for septicimia? I'm thinking maybe I should have some on hand, jsut in case. I won't use it now but I'd like to have something handy as those veins in his tail look pretty angry.

I have some PP but am unsure of dosage. Once I begin treatment (which will hopefully be VERY soon), I will need to sterilize all kinds of equipment. :idont

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I'm not sure if chico showed you these pics so I thought I'd throw them into the mix. I'm thinking what is labeled Bug 1 and Bug 2 are the same bug, just different points of focus. My husband thinks they are different bugs. I think they are rotifers. He doesn't think they look like rotifers or flukes. What to you think?

Bug #1

PC172619_edited-1.jpg

PC172620_edited-1.jpg

Bug #2

PC172626_edited-1.jpg

PC172625_edited-1.jpg

PC172624_edited-1.jpg

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Just noticed very light tan/whitish poo from Dorothy (the fantail with red streaks in the tail). Not thin but about the normal thickness and kinda long.

Shoomey had a white, thin long poo earlier today but that is all I've noticed from her. I know an occasional poo like this is OK and I haven't noticed any other poo from her today.

I don't want to over react but I thought this may be significant. :(

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Well,

From what I can see, it looks like a rotifer. I say that because there are very sharp angles to the bodies in all of the pictures. The foot is a dead givaway too. The two points at one end are the foot of the rotifer and actually secrete a kind of glue that allows them to even stick to the surface of the slide when they inch along. Flukes tend to have a more elastic look to thier bodies. After all, they're flatworms. So, if you see a fluke and its all agitated from the transfer to the slide, youll see something that jerks kinda spaztically. it retracts into itself but with more of a mambrane for skin rather than the armored look. ;)

Great shot though.... :lol:

If it's OK with you, I think it would nice to compile some pictures for posting ithe lookalike/parasite thread. It would cetainly make things easier for other "scopers" to congregate for info on all this stuff. You know, if you wind up with any good ones, we can upload to the site for easy posting.

Thanks :D

Paul

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I'm not so sure thats all too much to worry about. However, a medicated feed like Medi-gold or metro-med might be a good thing. Both can be bought at goldfishconnection.com. Other than that, I don't know much of any other feeds besides Jungles Antibacterial medi-feed. I haven't used it or knowof anyone that has reporte anything about it. My choice would be medi-gold.

Other than that, its another sign of stress and/or some bacterial stuff happening. But, lets see if it gets better on its own. Often, just keeping things stable is the key to nipping things in the bud. Their appetite is the most important thing to keep in mind......... :)

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Thanks for the rapid response!! :heart

They are both just ravenous when I feed them!! They rush over to the side where I feed them and just wait for the food to sink down to their feeding plate. Other than the strange poo they are acting fine. (Well except for, ya know, the yawning, etc.)

Also I have both MediGold and MetroMed (both purchased recently) on hand, just in case.

I feel much better now and will watch them closely. Thanks again. ;)

Any thoughts on my post #189?

Also any pics of mine you'd like to use on this site is fine with me. Just let me know what needs to be done for you to post it where you want it.

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Oh, I DID miss a previous posting.... :o

Well, from what I've read and been advised, Proform C is Malachite green and formalin. But, its suppose to be a different blend. I guess the ingredients are frm better sources or the exact composition of the chems used are better. Either way, I've also been advised that it be used a 1 1/2 strength. A bit expensive, but suppose to superior.

Yes, this would certainly be something to discuss with Rick ad goldfish connection. Maybe he has had some luck recently with some tough strains. I would be very interested to hear what he says....... :exactly

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I'll e-mail him and see if I get a response. *crosses fingers*

But like I said I want to get going on this treatment so if I don't hear from him at all in a day or 2, I'll have to make a decision and just go for it! :o

And I can see how you missed that post--I did a couple right in a row. Sorry.

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I have a link to a PDF file explaining Proform C and how its suppose to be better than most/all the other MG/F formulations: http://www.koizyme.com/PDSProForm.pdf

So, the MG is whats different. They use the MG-chloride instead of the oxalate form. Evidentely, the people that came up with the formulation were looking for a formulation that was able to be used on scaleless fish.

Anyway, It sounds like Proform C is the MG/F to use.

Rick Hess will most likely e-mail you back asking you to call him. You'll be able to get a lot more accomplished that way. Ask him what he thinks of Proform C at the 1.5 dose with goldfish.

Good luck! :D

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Just to update everyone who's following this very long thread:

First of all the fish formerly known as Dorothy will be called Big D. As far as my 4 yr old daughter knows, her "Dorothy" is the mom fish and she knows that Dorothy starts iwth "D". So I will call him Big D. She will think it stands for "Dorothy" and I'll know it stands for "Daddy". :lol: (For those of you who don't know--my fish bred unexpectedly last week and Big D, to our surprise, is the daddy.)

So the dilated red veins I noted a day or two ago have disappeared. I'm not sure what made them go away. I'm just glad they are gone.

Rick from Goldfish Connection answered my e-mail. To my surprise, his response to my question of how he would recommend treating chilo was "How do you know you have parasites? And what is chilo?"

So when I explained to him that I purchased a microscope and with the help of a couple of members from here :heart , we determined that Chilodonella is what is in my tank. He then replied that he would think that after all the treatments that I did, if I did have chilo it should have been killed and that Chilo is very hard to see, even with a microscope. (It's like he does not believe that we would be able to identify such a beast.)

He then went on to suggest that I treat with Dimilin--a treatment for Lernea, Argulus and ERgasilus. And then treat for flukes if the Dimilin doesn't work. I do not feel I ahve any of the above in my tank. As far as I know the first 3 would be visible ON my fish and flukes would be seen under the scope.

So it seems while Rick is very knowledgable in some areas of goldfish apparently parasite treatment is not his strongest area. I have shared all of this information with toothless as he has been guiding me step by step thru all of this and we have concluded that we are on our own on this one. So we are working on a treatment plan for my fish and will hopefully get underway shortly.

Sorry for the loooooong post but I wanted to keep anyone following this thread fully informed. ;)

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Yep, I was pretty surprised to hear about that too. I would expect him to be a bit more knowledgable about fish parasites since he is one of the premiere importers of quality goldfish. Not to mention, being co-author of a book that many of us regard as "the goldfish keepers bible". Looks like Dr. Erik Johnson is the actual brains behind the book. :huh: Oh well.

However, I DO understand why he suggests dimilin and prazi as the first two drugs to treat with. Since they are "sure fire" kills for crustacean parasites and flukes, as well as 100% safe for fish and filter) treating with the two would eliminate them as possibilities. All that would be left then would be ciliates and flagellates. But, as Fantail noted above, if ergasilus, argulus or lernea were involved, you would very plainly see them.

Anyway, I have a few more days experimentation to go through before I can assume that my idea for eradication is a viable one. I'l post my results as soon as this happens........ ;)

Paul

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Well, because for the last 2 days I've noticed my dear fish yawning an excessive amount (like just about every time I look at the tank), I decided to dip them. It's been a little over a week since they bred and they were driving me nuts just looking at all that yawning.

I left them both in for 4 minutes (separate dips, not together). Big D made me very nervous when I returned him to the main tank. He sat for a few seconds then started darting around the tank like a mad man!! :krazy: Then he'd stop for a few seconds and do it again. He also did a "tail stand" for about 5 seconds, jsut kinda hanging there in the water.

Anyway, it's been probably 15 minutes since the dip and both fish look great again. They are foraging around for food and acting like themselves. Now let's hope the water change doesn't cause Big D to chase Shoomey around again!! He did for a day or so after the water change but then left her alone.

Other than that it's business as usual until toothless finishes his experiment with Spud. Hopefully that will be successful *crosses fingers* and I can get started with my treatment!!

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