Jump to content

Parasite?


fantailfan1

Recommended Posts

  • Regular Member

Try not to push it too much with the length of time in the dips. There's not too much difference between 4 minutes and 5 minutes when were talking about destroying parasites VIA hyper-osmosis. Its best to stick with what we have already established as a safe length of time for both fish. However, just for good measure, larger goldfish can go longer in dips than smaller ones. I've dipped a few goldies in 1.5% dips for ten minutes. ;)

Good luck and I hope to hear some good news over the next few days! :D

Paul

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 412
  • Created
  • Last Reply
  • Regular Member

Round #2 is underway.

Over the past few days, the fish have looked pretty good. The ryukin is showing little to no signs of parasites. I think I saw 1 dart in three days, no rapid fin movement, no yawning that I remember.

The fantail is still darting/flashing quite a bit--several times a day. As a result she has lost more scales. I have not noticed any yawning or rapid fin movement. No bottom sitting that I'm concerned about (she occasionally sits on the bottom but not for very long). The only behavior she is exibiting that is out of the ordinary (as compared to before treatment) is the excessive darting/flashing. Although I do believe even before treatment or any suspicions of parasites, she did dart a couple times a day. Perhaps she's had parasite issues for much longer than I thought or she jsut darts around for fun sometimes? Her tail/finrot has remained stable--no better, no worse as far as I can tell.

Anyway, I performed a 50% water change followed by a salt dip on each fish. Dorothy (fantail) went about 3 min 15 sec before I thought she ought to come out. Once back in the main tank she sat for a few seconds then went on to business as usual. Shoomey (ryukin) went 3 minutes as he is not showing any significant symptoms I thought it best to keep the dip to a minimum. Should I continue to dip him? Could he be "cured" while Dorothy is still infested?

I then added QC dose #1 of round #2. They did fine with it.

I guess that is it for now. Both fish continue to eat well. If it weren't for Dorothy's darting/flashing I would say everything else is back to normal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Yes, one could be cured while the other still harbors parasites. However, the darting and flashing could actually be because of a sensitivity to the meds. It may or it may not be this, It's hard to tell. OR, there could be another parasite involved that is not effected much by the meds your using. These, and more, are ALL possibilities. :huh:

How have your params been throughout all this? Ammonia, nitrItes?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Ammonia and nitrite have been 0 everytime I test--which is once a day.

I've seen much less darting the last couple of days, still some "flashing". Her behavior looks pretty much like pre-treatment Dorothy. I know it sounds strange but what she's been doing lately (as she did before treatment) is like a complete forward 360. When she does this she sometimes ends up rubbing on the rocks on the bottom or the "log" in the tank. I don't know if she's rubbing on purpose or if she just misjudges the size of the circle she's diving into and runs out of room? So maybe what I'm calling flashing is normal for her?

I don't know that I've seen any darting/rapid swimming except for when I'm opening the hood to feed her. I think she's jsut excited for food.

Perhaps the behavior she's exhibiting now is jsut normal for her? Darting when there's food coming, "flashing" a couple times a day when she's doing her circle thing. No yawning or rapids fin movement.

She's eating fine and is quite active.

So now my questions:

Should I continue with the salt dips? I'm guessing since my ryukin is not showing any symptoms I shouldn't dip him. Perhaps another dip or two for Dorothy? (Tonight would be dip #2 for her and then I could do one more on night #5?) I know the dips are not easy on the fish though and I don't want to over do it.

Tonight will be QC dose #3. I will continue to 5 doses.

BTW--glad to see you back. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member
However, the darting and flashing could actually be because of a sensitivity to the meds. It may or it may not be this, It's hard to tell. OR, there could be another parasite involved that is not effected much by the meds your using. These, and more, are ALL possibilities. :huh:

432162[/snapback]

I noticed the morning after adding dose #1 of QC Dorothy was not very active--wondered if it was the meds. However since then she's been fine.

Also I took a 3 day break between Round #1 and Round #2 of QC and if I remember correctly Dorothy's darting seemed to increase a bit during that time. Now her darting is essentially gone.

It's jsut the darn "flashing" that remains. And I'm not convinced it is true flashing?

What parasite could survive all of this? Do I dare ask what other possibilities there are? :(

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Essentially, ALL of the ciliates and flagellates in the list could survive. All it takes is one single survivor to re-populate the tank and fish. Just one single survivor. Being that most or all ciliates and flagellates reproduce VIA binary fission (splitting into two or more), they could re-infect the tank in large numbers within a few days time. All they need is a stagnant spot in the filter or gravel (or even INSIDE the fish body or slime) where the medication is not making it to. Remember, ALL biological matter is attacked by formalin and malachite green, not just parasites. So, its efficacy is rendered almost nil, very quickly.

This is my reasoning for suggesting the sterile tank scenario. I ran into problems, just like you, until I decided to use a sterile tank without a filter. The fish I treated for chilo and tetra is now in a twenty gallon tank that was cycled with bio-spira. This way, I know for a fact that when he was declared parasite free, he was going into a tank without a chance of re-infection.

Honestly, its beginning to sound more and more like you might need to try it........ :huh:

I wonder, have you been keeping the light off during treatment? Malachite green is deactivated by strong light such as the flourescents we use on fishtanks......

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

OK I think I'm going to go jump out the window. The lights have been on for the treatment.

Obviously I'll turn the lights off. Should I bother continuing this treatment for the 3 remaining days with the lights off?

Should I do both fish in the sterile tank?

My uncle is making my new stand for me. I'll call and find out about how long it will take him. Maybe I could finish out the three days (with or without dips?) then give them a break for a few days. Put them in the sterile tank for treatment while I set up the new tank and cycle it?

The only trick is--what happens if I get the sterile tank treatment done but the new tank is not ready for the fish yet? I won't have any cycled tank to keep them in. Could I just keep them in the hospital tank without a filter and do frequent water changes while the new tank finishes cycling?

I can't believe the light was supposed to be off! Why doesn't it say that on the bottle? It says to remove carbon but nothing about the lights. I think I'm going to :cry1 . . . . . .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

I can't remember if I suggest it to you in the beginning or not. Sorry if I hadn't... :(

Yes, go ahead with the dips and run it with the lights off for the remainder of the treatment. Then, after a break of a week I DO suggest you go ahead with the sterile tank scenario. Not to worry, as long as you perform large waterchanges each day, you'll be able to keep the ammonia at bay. Plus using Prime or Amquel Plus will make it MUCH easier.......

If the flashing begins to come back during the weeks break, utilize salt dips to reduce the parasite load. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Alright, I feel a little better. There will be no jumping tonight! :)

I'll go ahead and finish up this treatment. In the meantime, I need to get the new tank ordered as my lps doesn't keep them on hand. They tell me it will take about 1 week to come in. (Also I will be posting in the tanks and equipment forum with a couple of filter, lights, etc questions . . . hint, hint :D )

So three more days of this treatment plus a week off should give me enough time to get equipment ordered and here. I was thinking of getting a 20 gallon long tank for use as a hospital tank (that also fits my current eclipse hood so 1 less filter to buy--I will sterilize it of course before using it). Would that 20 gallon long be ok for the sterile tank scenario? I have a Python and can do water changes easily/frequently.

Well I'm off to change water and dip my fish--not to mention turn off those darn lights!! :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Umm - I am not the heavy weight here but I would venture to say... YES!

It is a real possibilty that even a few motnhs later te lack of QT can be presenting itself...

I had Graham for three months before the parasites reared their ugly heads..and from what I read, in a healthy tank, that is the just about the right amount of time.... If your Ryukin had not been QT'd -

However, I have not read a lot about it secifically re: GF, I think that contamination goes both ways - the many bugs that are natural to the tank can be very foreign to our new fish! We can QT teh newbies for years and yet they have disease when intorduced to the new tank.... immunity is great but it does go both ways. Just a thought...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Graham, EXACTLY! fish can build up an immunity to a particular strain of bacteria or parasite, but when a fish or plant is introduced to the tank (with a new strain of said parasite/bacter), the original fish can fall prey to it. In short, it was immunologically naive to the new strain of parasite/bacter. Same goes for the new fish, if there is already a different strain of said parasite in the tank, even though they harbor a different strain, they fall prey to the new strain they are introduced to. Let us not even mention the two different strains conjugating and creating a super-strain (its a possibility if they are morphologically similar)

Being that you dont need a filter for the sterilized tank scenario, you should only need a ten gallon tank (assuming the fish are still smallish). Just an aerator and possibly an air driven sponge filter to collect eroding poo. I would stick with a ten gallon if your fish are less than 5 inches each. Less places for water to go is less of a chance of any organisms surviving.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Dorothy is about 5 inches (plus about 2 inches of tail) and Shoomey is about 3 1/2 inches (plus about 1 inch or so of tail).

The reason I was thinking a 20 gal long was so in the future I could use it as a hospital tank using my Eclipse 3 hood. But if you think a 10 gal would be better . . . . ?

Oh, and are you telling me my fish are swappin parasites? :ignore And then those parasites are making baby parasites?! This is just crazy--all that in one tank and I can't even see it! (eeewww I don't think I'd want to see it)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

In the case of you wanting to use a 20 gallon for a future hospital/Quarentine tank, I would say go on ahead with it. ;)

432650[/snapback]

I'm thinking once the new tank is set up I may get a new fish or two and I will probably want to QT for about a year . .. :rofl

OK maybe not a year. But since I already have the hood/filter to fit a 20 gallon long, I would just use that for QT. But like I said if you think a 10 would be better for treating them in the sterile tank scenario, I'll get that for now and get the 20 once I'm ready to add the new fish (probably not til February or so). OR I could just get the 10 and a filter and not use my Eclipse hood, but I really like the Eclipse hood and since it has gph of 250 thought it would be perfect for a 20 gal hospital tank.

This is way too many decisions for my brain to handle so close to the holidays!!

Now back to my wonderful fish!! :D

I did a salt dip last night. I don't think either fish handled it as well as they had in the first round. I left Dorothy in for 3 min 15 sec but, like the last dip, she was gasping for air a lot and responding ever so slightly to my pokes so I took her out. She sat for like 5-10 seconds then started swimming again.

Shoomey (who did 5 min dips the last time without a prob) was gasping this time also so I only left him in for 3 min. I guess I didn't want ot overdo it as i know we will be doing the sterile tank in a week or so. (I do think this is an excellent idea before adding them to their new tank.)

Also Shoomey has developed 2 small (1-2 mm long, 1/2 mm wide) black spots on her fins--one in the middle of her dorsal fin and the other on the end of her middle (not pectoral, not anal) fin. They are not between the rays (is that what they are called) but rather on the ray itself.

I worked today so I did not have a lot of time for observation today. I will be home again tomorrow so I'm hoping for a little more "fishie time" then. :krazy:

Tonight will be dose #4 of QC, no salt dip. I'll dip them tomorrow night and add final dose of QC. Then I'll plan on a week or so off before beginning the sterile tank scenario. Need to get some PP and find some time to sterilize everything. My fish obviously don't know it's the busiest time of the year. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Hey Fantail! Yeah, I have decided that one year QT with trickle acclimatisation is on order, too! I may never get a new fish at this rate! I guess we just have to do the best we can... and you are doing a really fantastic job! Come on Dorothy! Come on Shoomey! The way I see it, our fish buds have hung on this long so they must really want to be with us! :exactly

One thing to help you decide about QT tank is - more meds are need for 20g since more water - while 10g has less water, you will be changing the meds everyday with a sterile tank scenario... although many meds have to be added everyday, anyway... I know it is not easy to keep a cycled Hospital tank ( I wish I could) but I will also say that I was not too happy with the sterile tank scenario - I think Jean Lafitte would have fared better if he had been in a cycled tank as the constant water changes stressed him... But, that is my opinion from a limited experience...

I would want to try to use the Eclipse, too, becuase they charge so much fo rthem... and then the 10g sterile tank is so convenient because it doesn't have to be left up... Tough decision!

Anyway, thinking of you guys and hoping you have a Happy Thanksgiving!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
  • Regular Member

OK well here is the update:

I finished Round #2 last week Tuesday. It's been 1 week and 2 days and the fish are acting quite normal. I still see Dorothy darting/flashing a couple times a day. I've seen both of them yawn maybe once a day. No rapid fin movement from either.

Dorothy continues to have red streaks in her tail and it's quite frayed/eroded on the end. Shoomey has a couple of places on his tail that are split. He has a couple red streaks in his tail but not nearly as much as Dorothy.

They both continue to be very active and are eating sooooo well. I'd even say Dorothy has gained a little weight. She was looking kinda thin but looks better now.

My uncle will be done with my stand/canopy next week. I've ordered the tank and it will be another 2-4 weeks. :( I also have both the filters, air pump, etc I will need for the new tank.

I haven't jumped right into the sterile tank scenario because I've been soooo busy (I know, bad excuse) and they really look pretty good (well, if you don't look at their tails) but I still think it would be a good idea to do the sterile tank scenario before adding them to their new tank? I bought a ten gallon so I can treat them in there and then will set up a temporary 20 gallon long to house them after I treat them while I'm waiting for my new tank to come in and cycle. I still need to get some Bio Spira (which no one in town has so I'll need to order that soon). I picked up some PP to sterilize their current filters/equipment once we begin the sterile tank scenario.

So where do I go from here? Sterile tank scenario? Any ideas what is going on with their tails?

Here we go again . . . . :yeah:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Well, it sounds like the sterile tank scenario is going to be needed. Until that can be achieved, you may be able to stave off a further increase in the numbers of parasites by keeping the gravel and filter pad VERY clean. If your filters have a bio-media basket or has sponges or something of that sort, you can rinse your pads off in full water pressure from a garden hose sprayer or hand held showerhead set on pulse. Just be sure to never rinse the bio-media in tapwater unless its been dechlorinated. You can also give them salt dips to help clear out some of the parasites on their bodies.

Good luck and keep us posted! :)

Paul

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Paul,

OK as I was drifting off to sleep last night and thinking about my fish (where we've been, where we're going and then on to the new tank) I got to thinking--how will I know for sure that the parasites are gone before I add them to their new tank? What about when I want new fish? Does QTing them guarantee (I know there is no 100% guarantee but to a large degree of certainty) that no parasite survives?

Is it (past) time for me to get a microscope?! Do you think our course of action would be different (from here on out) if I did have one?

So much for the money I saved by having my uncle build my stand . . . .

What do ya think? :idont

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member
I'd go with the salt starting at 0.1% (1 teaspoon per gallon) and if you can, try a couple of salt dips - about 6 hours apart. You could start with a 1% dip which would be 2.5 teaspoons of salt in a 1/4 gallon tub - keeping them in there for 10 minutes. And if you find they deal well at 1% - the next dip could be increased to 2% (5 teaspoons in 1/4 gallon)...

414721[/snapback]

This is slightly off topic but how do you get that amount salt to dissolve in that small amount of water? I have a hard time getting a tablespoon to dissolve in my 2.5 gallon bucket. :hmm

I hope you fish gets better :heart

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

You know, I read another thread on people having a hard time dissolving their salt and all I could think of when I was doing this was--there is no way they could dissolve THIS much salt!!

I don't know. I did 1.5% dips which was 1/2 cup per gallon. I did 1 cup in 2 gallons just to give them a little room to move. I put the salt in the bucket, added temp matched dechlorinated water and stirred while I finished filling the tank--probably 3-5 mins and it was dissolved. No tricks--just stirred and stirred and stirred.

Sorry I can't be of more help--must jsut be the water?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Well, you kindof have to look at this from a very rational and logical angle. Your fish have a parasite that is obviously pretty hard to kill off (even with malachite green/formalin). You could go on treating with different medications until something works (risky), or you could get a real diagnosis of the problem and treat it knowing the exact organism, life-cycle and medications to try.

If this is costia, PP or QC followed by a raise in temp to 86 degrees can kill of the buggers.

If this is chilo, QC or PP in a sterile tank scenario is the best bet.

If this is trichodina, QC or PP dips work well.

Etc, Etc..... Most organisms that parasitize fish have a few "extras" you can tack on to a treatment for a better, faster cure. Alternately; Knowing the culprit allows you to tailor the treatment to the specific organism and its life cycle. ;)

You could go to a vet and get a diagnosis but for the same amount of money, you could buy yourself a scope thats good enough to get the job done. You know, most scopes that are bought new come with a return policy. Usually 30 days. If you could get a scope, diagnose the problem and treat successfully within 30 days, you could return the scope for a refund. I know its sneaky but its do-able.

Other possible treatments include:

I've heard mixed results about a product called Clout. Its an organophosphate that is used as an insecticide. It inhibits the production of shells in copepods and cell walls in ciliates. It might be worth a try if QC doesn't work.

Then there's chloramines T its a pretty safe med to administer if you have accurate results for your temp, GH and pH. The harder your water, the higher the dose needed.

Post back soon.

Paul

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Where can I get a decent microscope that will be powerful enough to see what I'm looking for (of course, the main reason I've dragged my feet on this is because I don't know what I'm looking for :unsure: )? And what's this puppy going to cost? I'd like to add that I haven't mentioned this to my husband for fear that he'll think I've really gone off the deep end!! :lol:

Then again I didn't say much as he took out the old engine in his car and totally rebuilt it this summer. Parts and pieces arrived on our doorstep almost every day for at least 6 weeks. Our neighbors all thought he was nuts but that is what makes him happy and my fishies make me happy. To each his/her own I guess.

Anyways, sorry, I digress. Back to the fish. Like I said, I don't mind spending the $ because I think it would be useful in the future--new fish, further infestations :ignore , etc. I guess I'm just wondering if I'll be able to differentiate one organism from the other. You aren't planning any holiday trips to Michigan are you? :rofl Ski trip/microscope ID lesson . . . . :tomuch:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Well, in truth, you wont need anywhere near top-of-the-line to view parasites. 100x-400x-900x are the powers your ultimately want. However, you can do the job just fine with a 40x-100x-400x scope. All in all, your going to spend at least 100 bucks to get one to your door.

Here's a link to a page on ebay: http://stores.ebay.com/Precision-World_Mon...idZ2QQpZ6QQtZkm

Microscope depot, prescision world and several other companies offer the same quality for about the same pricing.

If you have any questions regarding any of the scopes you see, just ask! :D

Paul

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...