Jump to content

Parasite?


fantailfan1

Recommended Posts

  • Regular Member

Laurie, you have been so great to stick with me thru this (and other issues as well). I'm not worried about the PC. We got a couple doses in there which is more than I would have known to do without this site!! We'll get it figured out! :)

BTW--while Dorothy the fantail continues to sit in her corner a bit more than usual still, she's got that bent dorsal fin up more often than when she first started sitting on the bottom. Even when she's 100% healthy she doesn't ahve her dorsal fin up all the time because of the kink in the spine of the dorsal fin (is that what it's called?) from before. So I have assumed that when she raises it up she's feeling pretty darn spunky!! :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 412
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • Regular Member

Thanks Fantail, I am all for learning new ways and things to be done. Paul and Carol have taught me so much about parasites and up until recently all my experience came from just listening. But to actually have to treat adds a new diminsion to the skill.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member
The fantail has some raggedness to her tail, none on the ryukin.

The ryukin definitely does not have clamped fins.  The fantail has a previously injured dorsal fin so the spine of the fin has like a kink in it.  As a result that fin is often down and has been that way for a while.  She does raise it up so it looks "normal" when she swims around but it is down when she's sitting in her little corner.

418959[/snapback]

An update on these comments:

The ryukin has a spot on her tail fin that is split a little bit. It has been like that for a while so I didn't really think to add that until I looked at him today.

Today the fantail has been raising her lil (previously) injured dorsal fin up a bit more--even when she's in the corner sitting. But I posted that info earlier so that's all I'll say about that. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Well, I think you guys may be right about parasites being involved here. If water quality has remained top-knotch, throughout the display of visible symptoms, Then we can only surmise that there is indeed a bug in there that is bothering your fish.

For now, I would continue with the PC AND 0.3% salt. In total, you should treat for at least 4-5 additions. Including the previous additions. If they go through the whole treatment and the symptoms disappear, great! It most likely means you were successful. However, if you find that the full PC regime did not eradicate the symptoms, I believe the next step should be a malachite green/formalin combo such as Quick Cure, Rid Ich, Rid ich plus, maracide, etc.

One thing abut PC that isn't all its cracked up to be is that fact that Metronidazole only has a half-life of about 8 hours (once in solution). So, if spironucleus or hexamita (intestinal/internal parasites) were involved, a medicated feed that contains metronidazole (AKA Flagyl) would be the best route of administration. Metro-meds (Goldfsh Connection) or Anti-parasite feed (Jungle Labs) is the best.

Throughout all of this, water quality should be monitired and kept as close to perfect as possible. Even nitrAtes shouold be kept sooper low. Try keeping them below 20ppm until the treatment/s are done. Extra gravel vacs and tank hygiene/cleanliness should be done.

Laurie,

It would be pretty hard to overdose with PC, but, it is much more possible if waterchanges were NOT done between additions 2 days apart. All in all, the only med in PC that is OD-able is acriflavin. In essence, its a very safe med to use. ;)

Good luck!

Paul

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Thanks for your response, toothless.

I just tested my water. The results:

pH 7.6

ammonia 0-0.25 (I detected just a hint of green to the water)

nitrite: 0-0.25 (I detected just a hint of purple this time)

nitrate: 10-20

I did a 50% water change, added Prime and salted to 0.3%. I did not add carbon or PC and will hold off on either until I get a response. :)

So, do I need to wait until my params are PERFECT (ammonia and nitrite absolute 0), or am I ok to go ahead and do my remaining 2-3 doses of PC?

How do I know if my fish have intestinal/internal parasites? What are the signs? I do have MetroMed on hand if we need to use it. I will continue for the full 2-3 weeks on MediGold, though, as I know it's not good to switch "mid-stream". :D

Just a side note: I've noticed that now when I do gravel vacs (since I switched to river rock), I get a lot more bigger "chunks" of gunk (mostly poop) being vacuumed out vs. with gravel. I would guess that's probably a good thing as the stuff I'm vacuuming out doesn't look like it's decomposed as much?

Also both fish seem to hang out a lot in their log/tunnel. Should I turn down the outflow on my cannister so there's not so much current in the tank? Does that decrease the amount of gph filtered significantly? (Want to keep tank clean.)

Thanks again all of you who have helped me throughout this whole ordeal!! :heart

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Hi there. :)

If you are detecting ammonia and nitrItes in your tankwater, something is wrong. Either with the filtration rate/bio-media or it was hampered by recent medication.

What is the gallonage of your tank?

What is the name and exact model of filters you use on this tank?

Have you recently done any filter maintenence like scrubbng it out or anything?

I would go ahead and continue with the PC and 0.3% salt. Once started, do not stop, AT ALL, unless there is an adverse reaction to it. If water quality falters, perform as large a waterchanges as needed. Remember the amount of water you changed and replace the medication removed. If a 50% waterchange is done, you'll need to replace 50% of the medication. That means using 50% of a normal dose of PC, right then. After that, resume the normal dosage rates at the normal times. Basically, you want to keep the amount of meds in the water the same throughout the treatment..... ;)

Paul

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

I have a 37 gallon tank with an Eclipse 3 hood (eclipse filter 250 gph) and an Eheim Pro II 2026 (172 gph). I've been testing my water religiously all week and today is the first time I've noticed anything other that 0 for nitrite and ammonia. And the colors were oh sooooo slightly off from 0, yet there were a bit off from the yellow (ammonia) and blue (nitrite) that I've seen the rest of the week.

The only filter maintenance I've done recently was when I added the first dose of PC last weekend. I removed the carbon from the Eclipse filter and rinsed it out in tank water.

So I am OK to go ahead witht the PC even though my readings were slightly off? I will check water params daily and change water accordingly. And water changes every 48 hours while using the PC.

Thanks again!! :exactly

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Yep, just be sure that your params don't get any higher than what you've seen on the kits recently. It could be that your nitro-cycle was offset a bit from the PC but it shouldn't get any worse then that.

Good luck and keep us posted. :)

Paul

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

The daily update:

pH 7.6

ammonia 0

nitrite 0

nitrate 10

I will add a dose of Parasite Clear tonight. I haven't added any since 10-24-05. So this will be dose #3. I will test water tomorrow and if everything is ok go ahead and add dose #4 after 48 hrs (Tuesday night). Test water and do final dose (#5) on Thursday.

Hopefully this will perk up the fish. Last night after the water change they perked up for a bit but today they are sitting on the bottom in the corner (the fantail) or in the log next to each other.

I just wish they would show some sign of improvement. They haven't been to the surface for air in quite some time. Actually I've noticed any swimming they do is in the bottom 1/3 of their tank.

Anyway I'm getting a little anxious and worried. I hope they can pull through this. :crp

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

I really hope the parasite clear works!!! (I have not been around for a while so please forgive me for not adding my thoughts sooner)! You are in great hands so I will just add that we, me Jean and Graham, are thinking of you! :heart

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Well, I think t would be best to go ahead and run the 4-5 addition regime from the dosage you just started. Sinply because any progress that may have been made was reduced because of the lagtime between these additions a week apart. Basically, the population of whatever bug it was rebounded when you stopped the "every 48 hours" regime.... ;)

When this PC treatment is over, and if you feel they are still in the grips of parasites, I highly suggest that Quick Cure be tried. Mild, 1.5% salt dips before each additon are a GREAT boon to the treatment as well.

Sorry if I sound lie a broken record. I forget what all has been said sometimes. :rolleyes:

Good luck!

Paul

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member
Well, I think t would be best to go ahead and run the 4-5 addition regime from the dosage you just started. Sinply because any progress that may have been made was reduced because of the lagtime between these additions a week apart. Basically, the population of whatever bug it was rebounded when you stopped the "every 48 hours" regime.... ;)

420914[/snapback]

Thanks, Paul, I wondered about that. So I basically "pretend" the first 2 doses I did never happened and yesterday's dose is dose #1 of 4-5, right?

Well I'm off to test the water params for today. Hopefully all is OK. If not, I'll do a 50% water change and add a half dose of PC.

*tears herself away from Koko's just long enough to test water* :krazy:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Ok so here we go again. It is day 6 of MediGold. Water params were: pH 7.6, ammonia and nitrite 0, nitrate 20. So I'm about to do a 50% water change, salt, and add dose #2 of 5 of PC.

The fish are hanging in there. I noticed Dorothy (my fantail) is missing 2 more scales. :cry1 They both still seem to take a while to "chew" their MediGold (don't know if that is significant or not?). They both also tend to hang out in the log kinda treading water a lot. They venture out occasionally but not for very long. And Dorothy spends time in the corner still but is in the log treading water more than sitting in the corner--so I guess that's good.

I ahven't seen either one of them going ot the surface for air. Like I said before they both jsut kinda hang out in the bottom 1/3 of the tank, not going near the surface.

Can't wait for them to show some sign of improvement. :unsure:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Can't wait for them to show some sign of improvement.  :unsure:

421428[/snapback]

And I wish I could say today is the day. Dorothy's tail seems to be getting MORE ragged (I read somewhere, I think on another website, that salt can cause fins to get ragged--is that true?) and still has blood in the ends. My ryukin doesn't look too bad--much more active than poor Dorothy.

I'm sooo worried about her now. I hope she pulls thru this.

Does anyone out there have any idea on when I should start to see SOME improvement? I've been salting (0.3%) for 12 days, they've been given MediGold for 7 days, and I'm on my 2nd dose of Parasite Clear.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

:bump:

Oh NO! I have re-read your post to get it all straight... and yes, I think 12 days of salt at 0.3% can be stressing the fish out - hopefullyone of the excellent pros who have been helping you can advise wheter it might be time to decrease the salt...

I would certainly continue Medi-Gold for minimum 14 days - medi-gold has sulfa drugs with kanmycin antibaterials while Metro-Meds has sulfas and metronidiazole which an anit-fungal agent with some anti-bacterial properties. Mertonidazole will kill some parsites but not necessarly flukes. (the best treatment for gill and body flukes is pure Praziquantal - Goldfish COnnection). I have noticed when my fihs have eaten it that the food is rather harder than Pro-Gold so maybe a little extra soaking - 10 seconds more or so - would help? Becuase it would help a lot to know if the chewing difficulty is due to the change in food or to illness.

As long as they are not spitting the food out, that is a good thing.

Prazi is a drug that works by parlyzing the musculature of the parasite (your fish is too large and complex to be affecting similiarly) which causes the adult fluke to fall off the host (your fish) which will kill it - cannot survive without a host. THis only affects adult flukes and that is why the repeat treatments are recommended - in order to cover the full life cycle of the flukes - allowing the nascent flukes to become adult so they can be affected by the drug - eventually, the population will be wiped out. So, the drug is completely safe for fish!

I do not know all the ingrediants of Parasite Clear so there may be additives or it may be a drug combo treatment that could have some toxicity... from what I remeber, it has a lower dose of Praziquantal...I don't know - what brand are you using? Basically, overdose of anything is not good - in the case of Prazi is just not necessary. But, it would take such an enormous does to harm the fish that I don;t think it could practically happen!

I just wanted to answer some questions I saw along the way -e ven though I can't really help you - besides, you have all the best help already! I am a big believer in salt but I do think it can certainly start to stress the fish out. Is it possible that the stress from the salt can be masking improvements form the meds?

I really hope you see that long-awaited improvement in Dorothy soon! :heart

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Fantail, I don't know if I would reduce the salt just yet. I would see what Paul thinks, he knows this stuff inside and out.

However since you are not seeing an impovement in one of the fish there could be something else going on or another parasite.

It might be a good idea to recap once again. (i know sometimes the thread gets so long it is hard to keep track of things. ;) )

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

(NB - Hi - just for the record, I wanted to point out that I did not make any recommendation about whether to salt or not - I merely pointed out that prolonged salt can lead to increased stress on the fish - and I specifically said to refer to the mods here - I just wanted to make that clear as I am NOT attempting to give direction on medical care. Where I can, I conribute about pharmacology as that is somehting I have a degree in) -please, I did not say to stop salting the tank! I am not trying to interfere or confuse with Laurie, Jen, and Paul's treatment. I just want to give my support to my buddy Fantail who has been there for me! :heart

Edited by Graham
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Thanks for your responses, Graham and LaurieP. I have to admit I cringed a bit at the thought that something else is going on!! I'm just not very patient when it comes to things like this--I want my fish (or my kids) to get better NOW! :)

I will try and recap as briefly yet as thoroughly as I can:

10-21: salted water to 0.3% because of excessive yawning from both fish (several times a day, probably every hour at least)

10-22: 50% water change, added Parasite Clear, removed carbon

10-24: Dose #2 PC (no water change :( , oops)

Tested water params daily. All ok.

10-27: Begin MediGold as noticed occasion white stringy poop from both fish and blood in tail of fantail.

10-29: Slight bump in cycle (maybe because of meds, no water change between them) ammonia 0.25, nitrite 0.25. 50% water change, continued salting to 0.3%

10-30: Begin PC treatment for a second time per Paul's advice, starting over with dose #1 and doing 4-5 treatments.

11-1: Day 6 of MediGold (FYI no white poop noticed since beginning MediGold, all healthy normal looking poo from both fish). Both fish seem to have a bit of a difficult time "chewing" the MediGold but do not spit it out. :) Added PC dose #2, salted, Prime.

So now a few questions:

Dorothy's tail seems more ragged than before we began the treatment. Could this be from the salt? (I will keep salt at 0.3%, jsut wondering if the raggedness could be from the salt as she is a freshwater fish.)

Dorothy is also missing about 3 scales, 2 within the past few days. Is this something to be concerned about?

My ryukin, Shoomey (named by my very creative 2 yr old son :heart ), looks pretty good physically but isn't as active as he once was. Dorothy, my fantail, looks a bit rough (ragged tail with blood, missing a few scales) and also is not as active. I still notice a big yawn or two from her a few times a day but not nearly as often as before we started treatment.

Part of me thinks shouldn't they start acting more like themselves by now--a week on the MediGold and 2 doses of PC? On the other hand, I think, they are not even halfway done with either treatment--am i just an overly anxious fish mom and need to sit tight?! :unsure:

Just a recap of tank: 37 gallons with Eclipse 3 filter (250 gph) and Eheim 2026 (172 gph), no new fish, 2 fish--fantail 7-8 inches including tail, ryukin 4-5 inches including tail.

Anyway, thanks for all the help. And please please please if there is any other info needed, ask!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Rrrrrr . . . . now that I said all poo has looked normal, I look in the tnak and my ryukin has a long thin poo the color of his food. Probably from stress?

And now so does the fantail. :crp

Edited by fantailfan1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Sorry I haven't been in in a couple days. I've been sooper busy.

So, your only visible symptoms you see at this point is....

Missing scales, lethargy, prolonged chewing aaaannnd......? Flashing, Yawning or anything else persisting?

I think that if their poo remains the color of their food, or sometimes a clear spot or clear string, they are not suffering from any internal infections. If it goes white, then you are seeing spent white blood cells and thus signifying infection. But, ince in a while, you will see white poo. Its when it persists, that you have a problem.

Keep going with the PC treatment and salt. Do not be discouraged. Sometimes, it can take a while for lingering parasites to die off. The thing with salt and acriflavin ( the ingredient in PC that we are counting on) is that they interfere with the biology of some parasites to an extent. If it doen't outright kill it, it will slow its proliferation down to the point that no new organisms are reaching maturity, or being able to split off from another organism. But, as I have said before, resistancies are a reality and must be prepared for. Have you got some Quick Cure yet? If so, it might be needed soon.

Good luck and keep us posted..... :)

Paul

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Flashing--none from the ryukin, maybe once a day from the fantail.

Yawning--very very rare from the ryukin (maybe once a day), few times a day from the fantail.

So I guess my main concern has been the lethargy but I guess as we are not quite half way thru treatment, I'll try and relax a bit.

I don't have any Quick Cure yet. I have a vvvv about 5 min away is it available there or is it something I'll need to order on-line? If I need to order it, I'll get it ordered soon. (I'm assuming I should finish the PC and salt treatments before we go to Quick Cure so I'll have a couple of weeks before I need it--plenty of time to get it here if it needs to be ordered.)

Also what about PraziPro or PraziPond--are either of those still a consideration? Just want to be prepared.

Thanks again Paul. :heart

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member
(NB - Hi - just for the record, I wanted to point out that I did not make any recommendation about whether to salt or not - I merely pointed out that prolonged salt can lead to increased stress on the fish - and I specifically said to refer to the mods here - I just wanted to make that clear as I am NOT attempting to give direction on medical care.  Where I can, I conribute about pharmacology as that is somehting I have a degree in) -please, I did not say to stop salting the tank! I am not trying to interfere or confuse with Laurie, Jen, and Paul's treatment. I just want to give my support to my buddy Fantail who has been there for me!  :heart

422302[/snapback]

Hey Graham, no problem. Wasn't thinking you were saying to do that. Just wanted to make sure there was no misunderstanding. Ya know how it is with just words on a page. ;)

Relax, you are a help to the board. And it is cool you are here for a friend, we should all be so lucky. B)

Fantail, I see Paul has you still on track. Hang in there. I know sometimes we want to see miracles in our fish, but often it takes a while for a sure improvement. You are doing great with them.

The only thing I would say is if you can order the Prazi it is good to have on hand as well as the quick cure. If you are tight on funds then hang back. But that stuff lasts a while, I think anyway.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Thanks, Laurie.

Fortunately, funds are not a problem (one less thing to worry about :D ). I will get them ordered soon. As far as the Prazi--what should I get-- PraziPro, PraziPond, something else?

Actually, I've got my eye on a 55 (or maybe even 75 *slightly intimidated by water changes*) gallon for Dorothy and Shoomey for Christmas or sometime thereafter, assuming they both pull through this OK. It's a bit of overkill for just 2 fish but I'm sure they would like all that room to swim, that is if they start swimming around again like they used to!! :) I think I'm unlike just about every member on this board as I am totally happy with just 2 fish and even with a bigger tank wouldn't get any more. I'm too much of a worry wart to ahve more than 2 fish!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Hey, with a bigger tank the less hassle with it. AT least that is what I hear. I myself have a 46 and was fine with 2 in it.

I like the more room for them. YOu can see them growing and thriving.

Good luck, Oh I am not sure on the difference of the prazi's. But I have heard people use both.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...