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Parasite?


fantailfan1

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Great, I'll keep an eye on the water params and where she is missing the scale. Like I said it's been like that for a while and looks fine. I only notice it in certain light. Just wanted to make sure there wasn't something I should be doing (besides keeping up on water changes, which I do religiously).

Thanks a bunch. I'll definately keep you posted. :yeah:

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And now--the daily update :D

pH 7.6, ammonia and nitrite 0, nitrate 5

Added 2nd dose of Parasite Clear (approx 48 hours after 1st dose). I will continue daily water testing and change the water if necessary. If I need to change the water in the next couple days because of params problems, should I add the carbon back then or wait til normal water changing day (Saturday)?

My fantail is still yawning on occasion and seems to be sitting on the bottom in the corner a bit more than usual. (Or perhaps I'm just paying more attention. How do you know if there is something wrong or is she's just resting?) She still devours any food added to the tank. Also in an earlier post I mentioned that she had white poop. I ordered MediGold and it should be here soon. However since the white poop all I've noticed is normal poop. I'm assuming I should hold off on the MediGold?

One last question: should the lights be on or off during this treatment? I've had them off as I read a post somewhere that suggested turning them off but I don't remember what the fish were being treated for in that post. Or is it jsut a good idea to have lights off for any treatment?

Thanks again :D:);)

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Good question Fantail, I am not sure about the lights. I know that most of the time it is to keep stress down so if it doesn't bother you to keep them off then I would continue to do so. However I have left my lights on except when treating dropsy.

You can assume that if the fish is sitting on the bottom more than you think is good then there is something wrong. I wouldn't run the carbon until for at least 7 days if you can. Make sure if you change water to add that amount of med back to the tank though.

I forget (for I am helping a few with similar problems) are you running salt in there as well?

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Yes the tank is salted to 0.3%. I'll leave the lights off.

"I would not run the carbon for at least 7 days" Do you mean 7 days total or 7 days from now? (I began treatment with Parasite Clear on Saturday and added 2nd dose Monday.)

Any ideas what could be wrong to cause the bottom sitting? Or could it be the parasite? Like I said she eats fine and poop is normal. She just swims around for a while and then goes back to her fav corner for a while, then swims, back to corner, etc. How much do fish sleep/rest in a day? Are there other signs I should watch for that may explain the bottom sitting?

And at the risk of sounding like a broken record--thanks again, Laurie!

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You know, now that I look at her closely, she does have some red streaks in her caudal? (the middle fin--not her pectoral not her anal but the fins between those) fin on her right side near the front edge of the fin. Isn't that a sign of a bacterial infection (she also had white poop about 3 days ago but has been normal since)?

I didn't notice the red til I looked closer and she swam so i could see that fin. Anyway I do have MediGold on the way. I would guess it will be here today or tomorrow. Should I go ahead and start her on that also? If yes, how long does she stay on it? Can I eventually use carbon with the medicated food or leave it out til done?

Oh dear, poor Dorothy!! I just want her to feel better! :crp

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In regards to lights to be off, that generally involves products with Malachite green as the light deactivates it.  Hope this answers the Q for both of you!  :D

417878[/snapback]

Thanks Tamianth! I knew I read on some post that the lights deactivated the efficacy of something but couldn't remember what it was and if that was true for other meds. :)

All water params are still good: ammonia and nitrite 0, nitrate 5-10.

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Thanks Kathy that is news to me as well.

To answer your question I would run the carbon after 7 days total.

And yes I would start the medicated food. EIther one should be ok, and give it exclusivly for 2 weeks. Running carbon in the tank shouldn't be a problem with the food as long as she is eating it right away.

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The daily update:

pH 7.6

ammonia and nitrites 0

nitrate 10

Yay, at least all this is not disrupting the cycle!!

I will get her started on the MediGold. The ryukin in the tank doesn't have any blood streaks and is swimming OK. Should I feed him MediGold as a precaution or not? (I feed them on 2 feeding dishes away from each other in the tank so giving them different food would not be a problem.)

Actually I think the ryukin is yawning more again today. I added the 2nd dose of Parasite Clear on Monday. The plan was to leave it at that as long as water params are good, water change on Sat, continue salting to 0.3%, add teh carbon back in for a few days and see how they do. Should I stick with that plan despite the increase in yawning from the ryukin? I haven't noticed any yawning from the fantail (just the darn red streaks in her fin!)

So what it looks like to me is the ryukin is still bothered by the parasite and the fantail has a bacterial infection?

Fortunately, despite how bad all of this sounds, the fish actually don't look too bad. I'm confident that we will make it thru all of this!! ;)

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I would go ahead and feed both fish the med food. It won't hurt the other fish and if his immune system is down from fighting the parasites then it will be good.

I would do what you plan to do, if the yawning still isn't going away you may have a resistant parasite. This isn't good, for it usually takes micoscope to diagnsis it. I will pm Daryl or Toothless and see if they can help out. Hang in there.

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Thanks, Laurie. Isn't it kinda weird that only the ryukin seems to be yawning, not the fantail? The fantail was the one I noticed the most symptoms in to begin with.

I must admit I have been gone all day so I haven't been watching them as closely as I can on the days I'm home. I'll keep my eyes on them both tomorrow and try to get a better idea of how much yawning I see from either of them.

If the yawning continues and a microscope is necessary, then that is what we'll do. My friends won't believe it--first medicated food, next a microscope?! They already think I'm crazy--but, hey, these are my pets we're talking about!!

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Personally, I believe RanchuGirl when she says that you can never go wrong in having a microscope when you have fish. I finally (after many problems) got my microscope and have having fun learning about all kinds of things that I can find in the tank! (Kinda spooky at times, though! Ewwwwhhhh!)

Anyway.....Just a thought.....did the bottom sitting start when you removed your gravel and replaced it with river rock? I have a couple of thoughts about that ....

When you removed it, have you left sufficiant decorations in various places in the tank to break the flow of the filter's intake and outflow? Sometimes smaller fish will have a bit of problem with the currents - they need and want a "sweet spot" to rest in - hover in. Many will find it near the bottom of the tank. Also - if they are little guys and work hard for hours swimming happily in the current, they may retire for the night a bit earlier than usual - to rest and sleep. The place they find to sleep may include jamming themselves into any place they can for an "anchor" for rest.....

Second - when you remove gravel, there is the potential that you brought up the dormant cysts and juvenile forms of parasites that were there - gravel is nice, but can be a hotbed of potential parasitical problems - they wait until conditions are right. When a fish gets an injury, you add a new fish with no immunities to them, or a fish's immunity is down for one reason or another (Stress, illness, etc), then they pop out. When you stir up the gravel taking it out, some of these nasties may have come to the surface and decided to act up.

ParasiteClear is a good, all around blanket treatment. It deals well with many of the more benign nasties. Ich is a common nastie that likes to hide and appear like this - and you do not even have to see the white spots for it to be all over your fish and in the tank doing damage.

Finally, if either of your fish are female, there is a possiblity that you are looking at egg problems, in combination - something that could cause the white/clearish funny poop for a bit. MAny female fish become rather stressed and can be more susceptible to parasitical/bacterial problems when full of eggs. A common way to help your female fish to drop her eggs is to wait until the air pressure changes just before a storm, change 50% -75% of the water and then after it is all changed, dump about a quart of very cold water in. She should drop her eggs within hours.

The salt you have added is a bit of a purge - and will help in any problems with the poop - if that is concerning. The MediGold and MetroMeds are the best in the business, in my book.

I, personally, would say, if you want a microscope, go for it. YOu most likely should be fine if you decide not to, also. Treat with the .3% salt for the 30 days. Finish your ParasiteClear rounds. Feed the MediGold for at least 10 days - 14-21 being better. See what happens. You may have a resistant bug there - a fluke comes to mind. The best thing for them is Prazi - what is in the Parasite Clear is good - but may not be a big enough "club" to get every last fluke in a tank. But that is something you can deal with down the road, if needed.

I used to be leary of salt dips too, but I have seen such remarkable recovery in fish from these dips that I am now a firm believer. I salt dip for just about everything. I use 1/2 cup per gallon of water for up to 5 minutes. I time it with a stopwatch - no guessing on the time, and watch the fish really carefully the whole time, so you can take them out if they get too stressed. I have seen fish that are in REAL trouble perk up and start eating their meds and such after a dip. The dip strips all the slime coat off a fish - and a whole lot of parasites live in that slime coat. You are essentially removing all or the majority of the adult parasites from the fish. Then, if you treat the water, you can smash the juviniles before they attach on. It is a wonderful regime. In large, strong fish, you can dip each day for a while. In smaller, weaker fish, every 3-4 days is all you can do.

Your fish sound like they have a very observant and caring "mommy". Anything there, you have probably caught in the early stages, most likely. You have time here to react and treat - and you have taken great first steps. Now relax, and let the meds, salt and time work a bit. Keep an eye open and all, but do not panic. :)

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I removed the remainder of my gravel and added the river rocks on 10-15-05. It was 5 days later that I first noticed excessive yawning in the fish. So I began salting the tank on the 20th and reached 0.3% on the 21st. I added the Parasite Clear on 10-22 and 10-24. I think it was around the 24th that I noticed my fantail sitting on the bottom. About a week before I added the river rocks I added a large log to the tank (that is not hollow). I got my Whisper air pump (very quiet, by the way, thanks for the advice on that) and decided not to use the hollow ornament I had in there because even with the airstone inside I didn't feel I was getting enough air movement (odd shaped ornament). So I got a big log that is like a tunnel that both fish actually fit in at the same time along with some plastic plants that have been in the tank since I set it up so there are lots of no to low current spots for them to rest. I'm wondering if the bottom corner is Dorothy's (my fantail) "sweet spot". Compared to the other fish though she sure spends a lot more time sitting than he does.

And I'm not sure of the sex of either fish. I've had Dorothy for 3 years and have never noticed white spots on her gills. She/he appears to be an "innie" compared to the other fish who we've had for about 3 months.

I started them both this morning on MediGold but also have MetroMed on hand if you think that would be better in this case?

I have done 2 doses of ParasiteClear (last one done on 10-24-05 with no plans for more). Is that sufficient for now and then do Prazi later if signs of parasites continue?

How does this plan sound (I always feel better with a plan!!):

Salt to 0.3% for 30 days. Feed MediGold (or MetroMed if you prefer) for 14-21 days. Water change on Saturday (which will be our normal weekly 50% water change) and add carbon back in. Observe for further signs of parasites and if I see more yawning or excessive bottom sitting--salt dip and/or Prazi. Either of which I would check with you or LaurieP (who has been sooo helpful :heart ) before starting more treatments. OR should I just get over my fear of salt dips and do it now?

Sorry for all the questions. I jsut don't want to screw up. And altough I probably come across as quite panicked, I'm doing OK. Like you said, I think we caught this early. I'm just a Type A, detail-oriented kinda person. (Bet you couldn't have guessed that ;) )

On that note, I'm going to go take a nap. The kids are sleeping, my husband has been out of town all week, and I have come down with a cold/headache/achy all over feeling that I think a good nap will help tremendously!!

Thank you, daryl, for your input. I really appreciate your help.

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Daryl you are a wonder!! Thanks for your input even I learned a thing or 2. (the cold water thing to dump eggs, very helpful).

Fantail. Your plan sounds good. Since you started on the medigold I would finish it out the 14-21 days. Along with the salt for 30 days. After which you are noticing still signs of parasites then you can hit it with the prazi. For a fluke or flukes could be the problem.

Your nap sounds great, I too need one but too much to do to have one. Enjoy!!

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Thanks again Laurie.

I jsut noticed on the MetroGold it says it treats internal parasites (which i didn't notice on the web site). Any chance flukes are considered internal parasites and would be killed by the MetroGold?

BTW--I agree with you, Laurie. daryl is quite wonderful. I don't know how you 2 know so much. You never cease to amaze!! :yeah:

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Unfortunetly no medicated food will kill flukes and only the prazi as an outside medication can. They are the most "sturdy" of all parasites, but they live on the outside of the fish and in the gills, not internally.

Dang I know.

And thanks for the compliment. It was very hard for me in the begining of keeping gf. I am a vet tech so when an animal is sick I know what and how to do everything. So when my first gf came down with what I didn't know until latter was drospy I was helpless. I didn't like not knowing what to do so I became a "sponge" to koko's information and soak up as much as I can. I am very thankful for this site and what I have learned and still do learn. B)

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I agree with Laurie - the nap sounds good. And your plan sounds good, too. Once you have started with one antibiotic, it is important to finish out the entire regiment with it. If not, you could be creating drug resistant nasties. That MediGold will help prevent secondary bacterial infections, as well as treat anything that may be going on there right now. It is a great product.

I have always felt salt dips are most effective when used in combination with a very large water change or the beginning of a bath treatment. You strip the adult parasites along with the slime coat, leaving the fish open for the bath treatment to reach the fish - no slime coat covering him. The water change removes as many of the free swimming parasites as possible.

I would leave it be for a bit and see if the .3 salt and MediGold helps, since you are not comfortable yet with the salt dips. Think about them, and consider to yourself each step of a salt dip, and I think you will become more comfortable with the procedure. When you are ready - it will not be hard at all.... :)

Yes, MetroMeds are a different combination of antibiotic along with a drug that will kill internal parasites such as worms and such. But Flukes are not internal - they are nasty little critters who infest the gills and body slime of a fish - they cause bottom sitting, gasping, yawning, frayed fins and tail and overall malaise of a fish infested with them. The best treatment for them is Prazi Pond - (it is a powder described by our own dear Toothless - http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...showtopic=12696 )... combined with a salt dip to strip adults. But that is something you can deal with in the future - lets see how your regime you have going now works out. The MediGold is an excellent wide spectrum antibiotic.

Keep an eye on those babies and ask anything you wish - keep us posted on how they are doing! :)

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Oh yes, toothless is another one whose advice I take very seriously!!

I will stick with my plan for now and see how it goes. I think you're right daryl. I will continue to read up on the salt dips and look into the Prazi.

For now I'm off to work to remove a metal chip out of someone's cornea. Then remove any remaining rust with an Alger brush--which basically is thing small instrument with a spinning end that drills out the rust left behind from the metal foreign body. For some reason I have no problem doing that, salt dips make me a little nervous!! (Maybe it's the anesthetic I use when removing foreign bodies. That and the fact that my patient can tell me if it hurts or is bothering them.)

Well off I go. No rest for the weary . . . :D

Thanks a ton to both of you. I will keep you posted!!

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How big is the fish fantail? I have only one experience with salt dips and after speaking with Paul it is important to know the size of the fish.

Your job sounds fascinating and yeah I can understand the "fright" of the salt dips, but Carol and Paul are experts. It is just best to know the size of the fish before begining.

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My fantail is probably about 4-5 inches (6-7 inches including tail, maybe longer, she's got a very long tail!). My ryukin is smaller--probably 2-3 inches (3-4 inches with tail).

Like I said though, I will definitely make sure one of you advises/guides me thru the salt dip. For now I'll stick with the salt at 0.3% and the MediGold. If that doesn't seem to work (should I wait ti lthe end of the 30 days of the salt dip and 14 days of meds?), then I will go to the salt dip and/or prazi.

;)

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Ok fantail I am not sure on the smaller fish. I know that Paul said a fish under 4 inches don't tolerate the dips well, so it is best to have Daryl or him walk you thru that treatment. For now I would continue on and when and if the dips start it should'nt mess with that treatment just add to it.

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Hi guys! :)

Before we go any further with any of the salt dips, Parasite clear and 0.3% salt solution, I think we should review what visible symptoms are being expressed by your goldies, besides yawning and some bottom sitting. The thing with parasitic infestations is that they share visible symptoms with other ailments and conditions. The key is to take all of the visual cues into consideration, at the same time.

So, I have a few questions for you:

Any diving sideways and rubbing on the bottom? Spinning out in corners?

Excessive mouth "chattering" or "coughing"?

Rapid breathing?

Tail/fin-rot-erosion?

Opaque sheen between scales? Between rays of fins?

Excess slime patches anywhere?

Fins clamped (held close to body while swimming or bottom sitting)?

Okay, NONE of the symptoms I listed above can be a sure fire match for parasites, alone. Instead, it would take several of them to suggest a parasitic invasion. Bottom sitting and yawning could very well be from a lack of dissolved oxygen, among other things.

When treating with Parasite Clear, as a blanket treatment for an unkown parasite, It is suppose to be dose once every 48 hours, after at least a 25% waterchange. This should be repeated 4-5 times. This treatment would last a total of 8-10 days. Only when treating for anchor worm, fishlice and ergasilus do you use it once a week. Carbon should be left out for the duration of treatment. In fact, carbon is basically useless in a goldfish tank anyway because of the large, weekly waterchanges. In essence, the waterchanges are doing what the carbon does, remove build-up of impurities. The only time I ever use carbon is to remove leftover medication in a tank that is a bit too large to perform huge waterchanges (55 gallons and up).

Post back soon.

Paul

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My fantail spins out in the corners. Not the ryukin.

The yawning I've seen is when they open their mouth wide and look as if they are trying to push water thru their gills. I don't know what chattering or coughing would look like.

No rapid breathing. The fantail has some raggedness to her tail, none on the ryukin.

The fantail has one area on her dorsal fin that is whitish but that has been there for months? and some opaque areas on her fin.

No excessive slime coat that I've noticed. What would it look like?

The ryukin definitely does not have clamped fins. The fantail has a previously injured dorsal fin so the spine of the fin has like a kink in it. As a result that fin is often down and has been that way for a while. She does raise it up so it looks "normal" when she swims around but it is down when she's sitting in her little corner.

As far as the Parasite Clear is concerned--I've used it twice 48 hours apart without a water change in between as I thought as long as water params were OK I didn't need to change it :crp . The last (2nd) dose was Monday night. Should I do a large water change and then start over? Or do a large water change and then do 3-4 doses?

Also the tank is well oxygenated as far as I can tell--1 filters (one HOB and one canister) plus and airstone. The filters create a lot of surface movement.

Thanks, toothless, so much for your advice!! I look forward to a response and guidance in the matter. :)

Oh, just wanted to remind you the fantail has some red streaks in her tail and one fin and had some whitish poop last week so I started both fish on MediGold today. And if it gives you any clue, they seemed to have some difficulty "chewing" and swallowing the MediGold v when they eat ProGold.

Sorry for all the newbie questions!!

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Thanks Paul, I feel better that you and Carol are here supervising.

Sorry about the misguiding on the PC, I guess I haven't been using it correctly either. :o They really need more specific directions on the package. Geez.

I guess since I am learning here too, Paul is it possible to overdose the PC?

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