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Parasite?


fantailfan1

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Okay, without going through all the 16 pages of D's problem here - and it might be that somebody already mentioned it, so I appologize in advance - but did anybody ever consider gill flukes? They irritate the gills, and spitting out food is a sign of gill flukes. They won't show up on scrapes either, unless you could get a small sample of their gills and see whats in there... :unsure:

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So gill flukes would not be seen with the scope? I began all of this treatment back in October with Parasite Clear. They were still scratching so I did 2 rounds of Quick Cure. I think toothy said that if it were flukes the PC would have taken care of it? Could it be gill flukes now?

I came home from work to the cloudiest tank ever. :( I immediately filled their new tank for the night, salting to 0.5% (down from 0.6%). D is very lethargic, doing a lot of bottom sitting with a little bit of swimming. Dorsal fin is still erect (does that even mean anything?) but his tail looks pink from all that blood again.

Tried gel food and there was a little bit if interest from both fish but I don't think either of them ate anything. Shoomey continues to be active and looks quite good, despite not wanting to eat.

I am at a total loss. I think I should add the HexOut as they are not getting enough MetroMed to make any difference. Metronidazole is supposed to work on parasites and anaerobic bacteria.

What do you think? What about the gill flukes possibility? They just started spitting food in the past 4 or 5 days. Could it be some sort of ulcer in the mouth from being salted for so long?

I feel so helpless. :cry1

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I can only imagine - that goes on since October now! :thud One of the valuable things I learned from Joann from the puregold list is that gill flukes are very nasty suckers, and great in hiding. They could be sitting in deep gill tissue and laugh at you and the treatment. And one more thing - salt doesn't do a thing against flukes. Have you considered snipping a tiny piece of gill tissue from your bigger fish and see what you find in it?

I don't know if I saw that in the thread so far, but you haven't tried the prazipro or pondprazy yet? Just making sure we all still remember what went into their tank during those long 3 months.

I don't have any experience with HexOut, so I'd rather leave that to Toothy or Laurie to see what they have to say about it. Although since they haven't been getting any food into themselves, I'd consider leaning towards that Metronidazole in liquid form. :)

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HexOut is metronidazole in tablet form--1 tablet per 10 gallons. Do you know a brand name of it in liquid form or would the tablet form be basically the same thing? I honestly don't know if he would make it long enough if I have to order something. He looks really really bad today.

Because of that I don't think either of us are up for taking a sample of his gills.

Do you think it's possible they had chilo AND flukes? :ill

And doesn't it seem like if they had gill flukes they would have started spitting sooner than this?

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Gill flukes - yes. Can someone clarify this for me?

Andrea - can gill flukes just come out of nowhere? Like you said....sit dormant then all of a sudden WHAM.

Like my Robby....going thru the same treatment here with Big D and S....all of a sudden just died. Chewing and chewing - spitting out food.....

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OK kids, I have a confession to make. As I'm sitting here watching D waste away, I thought "I know I'm not supposed to feed anything else once med food is started but ya know what this fish is going to die if he doesn't eat more than 2 crumbs of MetroMed." So I did a naughty thing :donthit: I gave them peas.

And guess what--they both SWALLOWED one!! :heart:heart So I gave them another and they ATE it!! :nana:rockon

What gives?

Edit: D now ate 3 and Shoomey only ate one--the other one is on the bottom of the tank. But Shoomey ate well yesterday.

This just keeps getting more complicated.

Should I get some Prazi? Should I put the metro in the water?

I'm just glad they ate something . . ..

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Just jumping into say keep up your hard work! I can't believe all you have done for these fish...it sounds like a full time job! But I can't say I wouldn't do the same for any of my pets.

Could it be that they just don't like the Metromeds and/or gel food? I am SO not an expert, and you have several working with you here, so I hesitate to even bring that up...I was just wondering since they ate the peas and it seemed like they were doing ok with the crumbles...

Anyway, good luck, I am always checking in on you and your fish. Longest post ever?

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Yeah, this is a long one. :blink:

The crumbles that were eaten (which the more I thought about how much MetroMed I had put in each "serving" of gel food v what was left on the tank floor after eating I decided that they could not have eaten much.) probably was equal to less than the amount of a half of a pea. And when I fed them yesterday morning and evening they showed little to no interest, whereas the night before they had showed tons of interest. But after syphoning out what was left I decided they were doing lots of playing with the food and not much swallowing.

I am very interested in pursuing the possibility of gill flukes. For quite some time I did not notice any parasitic symptoms (during the salt treatment). Then I would notice an occasional flash. Next there was gasping at the surface. Then the return of the dreaded "yawn", big big yawns. Perhaps as the chilo population was eradicated (or at least very low), the gill flukes came out of hiding?

This morning there is quite a bit of bottom sitting, mostly D. He's not constantly bottom sitting, but gets up and swims around the tank every few minutes. I ahve not tried to feed yet. D's dorsal fin is half erect, half clamped. His tail actually looks quite good this morning--very little redness compared to last night.

I am going to look into a few different possibilities and then I think it's time for a good recap of what I've done so far and exactly what's going on now as far as symptoms.

So I'll be watching them closely today for any symptoms. Stay tuned . . . .

Oh and I would just like to say a huge THANK YOU to all of you that have helped me out on this. And to everyone who is following this post and wishing me luck--it really means a lot. :thanks

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Ok, I am by far no expert on flukes but if you are willing to do the "biopsy" on the gill to see I would encourage that.

Now I will say that metronadazole is horrible tasting. Could it be that is why he isn't eating it????

I have never had problems with my guys eating it, I don't know what Rick puts in to mask the med taste, but if the fish eats the peas and not the pellet then you have to wonder.

I am going to throw out an idea here, maybe mix the metro pellets with peas and make gel food.

Maybe he would eat it then. :idont

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So here is a re-cap of what I've done over the past 3 months:

I began treatment with Parasite Clear back on October. I added 5 doses over the course of 10 days with water changes each time I added more PC. The symptoms of flashing, yawning, spinning continued.

After a couple of weeks we decided to try QuickCure (which turned out to be a misnomer for my situation). I began the first round of QC on November 10. I also did 1.5% salt dips when I added doses #1, 3, and 5. After all of this I was still noticing symptoms so we went on to round #2 of QC. I was still seeing flashing and yawning.

Next, I broke down and got a microscope and we found chilo. I started treatment (RidIch+) in a sterile tank with 100% waterchanges. They did not handle this well so after jsut 2 days we abandoned ship.

Sooooooo beginning Jan 1, I began salting the tank beginning at 0.1% and increasing 0.1% daily til I got ot 0.8%. I left it at that level for 10 days, then started slowly decreasing. Today we are at 0.5%. Starting about a week ago, I began noticing the fish gasping at the surface, flashing and yawning again. Throughout the treatment D's tail ahs suffered major rot but that could very well be due to the high salt content and the fact that his tank mate took quite a liking to nibbling on his tail! Then within the past 4 days or so they fish began spitting their food out and not eating well.

I tried gel food with MetroMed which they seemed interested in but continued to spit and spit. Finally last night they did eat some peas. Today D is doing a lot of bottom sitting in the corner although he did eat 2 more peas this morning (and so did Shoomey). I tried a couple of ProGold pellets but they tried them once, spit them out and showed no more interest whatsoever.

So now where do I go from here? I ahve a few ideas but I also need to go pick up my daughter from pre-school. I will post my next treatment ideas soon.

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I've been thinking about and researching illnesses that salt will not treat. So far I have found: flukes (gill and/or skin), bacterial infections, internal parasitic infections (hexamita). Another possibility mentioned in Fancy Goldfish is mouth ulcers.

The symptoms the fish are exhibiting are: bottom sitting (mainly D--sitting in the corner), spitting (both fish), yawning (both fish), clamped fins (D). The redness in D's tail is minimal today. D also gasps at the surface for air about 3-5 seconds at at time about once an hour or so. I have seen a very occasional flash from D (maybe a couple times a day).

The tank is currently salted at 0.5%. I have not added anything else to the water yet. The fish will eat peas but that's about it.

So where do I go from here?

I think my options are treating with metronidazole tablets (which would work on internal parasitic and anaerobic bacterial infections). You treat the water for 3-4 days. Another option would be to treat for flukes with Prazi. Both treatments (metronidazole and prazi) are supposed to be very safe.

What am I not considering as far as what salt will not treat?

Is a gill biopsy necessary to diagnose gill flukes? (My poor fish have been traumatized enough.) What about visually examining the gills or doing a body scrape? In Fancy Goldfish the author of the flukes section states that he has yet to see "gill flukes exclusively on the gills or body flukes restricted to the body." If flukes are a strong possibility I would like to get some Prazi ordered.

Does anyone know any other signs to look for as far as internal parasitic and/or bacterial infections?

And, so, the million dollar question:

What's more likely to be bothering my fish--internal parasitic/bacterial infection or flukes? (Or something else I'm not thinking of?) Should I treat for one or the other? Should I wait and see? (If they were eating anything besides peas I would feel much more comfortable waiting but I don't think peas have much nutritional value.)

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Boy, some choices to consider... :thud

I'd definetely scrape again and see if you can find any body flukes. I heard that as well, that a lot of times body/gill flukes show up together. When was the last time you scraped? Sorry if I can't find that right now... :)

Prazi indeed is very gentle, and Daryl can tell you all about which kind of Prazi is the best to deal with. I know one is very hard to dispense equally into the water, you have to shake it or steer it like crazy.

Okay, found it.... :)

PraziPro versus PraziPond

Right now, with the symptoms your fish have at the moment, I'd go rather with the flukes treatment. The poop is the natural food color again, right? Or still white?

what I would do in your position is give Rick Hess a call from Goldfishconnection.com. He sells the Prazi, and he also is the co-author on the "Fancy Goldfish" book you are refering to.

The thing is, you can treat them for the bacterial/internal parasite problem, but if indeed they have gill flukes, that is a serious thing. Their gills are like our lungs - their primary organ for supplementing their bodies with oxygen. You can treat everything else, but they basically slowly sucumb to lack of oxygen to their bodies.

Now, if they only would eat the Medigold/Metromed!! Have you tried hiding one pellet in the center of the pea?

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The more I watch them the more it's looking like gill flukes to me. As I stood there watching them for about 10 minutes, I saw 3 big yawns from D and one from Shoomey, flaring their gills at the same time as yawning. D also flashes.

They are both extremely interested in food but spit it out immediately. As I transferred them to their clean tank for the evening, I caught D with my hands and took a good look in his mouth to rule out any mouth ulcers. Kinda neat how they keep their mouths wide open out of water--it took jsut a few short seconds to get a good look. His mouth looked fine--fleshy colored all over.

I ahve Prazi from Goldfish Connection on order. Do I wait to get that or is it possible to start them on Parasite Clear (one of the active ingredients is prazi) as I still have some from when I treated them with it back in October?

I think the interest in food is a good thing. Now if they could jsut keep it in their mouths!! I also tried freeze dried brine shrimp as it is so soft but they spit that back out too. :(

Hmmm . . .. I may write a book when this is all done. Actually i kind of already have (16 pages!). :lol:

Edit: Oh! Just pulled out the Parasite Clear. Guess what another active ingredient is? METRONIDAZOLE!! I'm itching to use it!! Whatcha think? :o

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I dont' know, something tells me to not go with the Parasite Clear. Call it gut or intuition but I would get the Prazi from Rick and speak with him about the metronadazole.

I know that Paul had a "path" directed out in his mind but unfortunelty we dont' know what that was, so we'll have to go with what we know for now.

Don't get me wrong I like Parasite Clear, but if I remember correctly it has less of the prazi in it than Rick's.

Andrea is right you have decisions to make................

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I ahve prazi ordered from Goldfish Connection. I was jsut thinking since PC is tauted as a very safe med I could get them started on it, kill off some of the flukes (perhaps enough to get them eating again) and whatever else the metronidazole will take care of then follow it up with a full round of prazi once it's here. In one thread i was reading Paul suggested using Prazi for a full month so I don't think it would be overkill to do PC first then prazi. He said the only thing to worry about overdosing in PC was the acriflavin. So if I did one full round of PC (getting the added benefits of the metronidazole) then finished off any remaining flukes with the PraziPro from Goldfish Connection.

Metronidazole is one of the meds in MetroMed but my fish won't eat that. I've researched metronidazole and it seems to be rather safe--taking care of any internal parasitic or bacterial infections.

I'm going ot have to re-read the life cycle of the fluke . . .

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Hm, Parasite Clear doesn't have a whole lot of strength of either Prazi nor Metronidazole - it contains a whole lot of good stuff, so they put a little bit of everything in it.

It isn't the full strength, but it is something, and I'd think that you can use it, and then switch over to the higher strength Prazi when you get it from Rick. I would definetely squeeze out all the information you can get from Rick - he is a walking and talking fish person through and through... :thumb:

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I had actually "talked" with Rick via e-mail about this before I started the 0.8% salt business. His recommendation at that point was to treat with 0.6% salt, then try dimilin if that didn't work. Both toothy and I thought that if my fish had something that dimilin treats (lice, anchor worm, something else that's not coming to mind) that I would see them on my fish. After the dimilin, Rick suggested treating for flukes.

So at that point toothy had gotten the idea from a chemist that we could treat our fish with 0.8% salt and that should take care of the chilo and 95% of parasites. That's where I am now. Tank is salted to 0.4% currently on it's way down from 10 full days at 0.8% then lowering 0.1% slowly.

After re-reading that e-mail from Rick I think prazi is definitely the next step. I still don't think that dimilin is the answer as their bodies are clear--no red spots, nothing unusual on them. Just nice shiny healthy looking scales. I would like to get started on the Parasite Clear until I get the full strength Prazi from Rick.

Couple questions: when I used PC before, toothy recommended 4-5 doses over a course of 8-10 days. I was to add one dose, wait 48 hours, do a partial (25-50%) water change, then add another dose of PC according to the amount changed. (I did 50% water changes then added in 50% dose.)

Now that I am treating in a sterile tank iwth 100% water changes, is it OK to continue with 100% daily water changes and add 100% dose back in the tank (1 tablet per 10 gallons)? Or would that be considered overdosing as it would be dosing every 24 hours rather than 48 hours? Hmmmm . . . . . toothy said the only thing in PC to worry about overdosing would be the acriflavin. I certainly don't want to OD these poor fish as they have put up with too much already! I've looked around and can't find any directions on this site as far as dosing in a sterile tank.

And finally--I know it is also recommended to salt to 0.3% when using PC as I think the salt is supposed to increase it's effectiveness. Should bring them to 0.3% and leave them there during the PC treatment or is it OK to continue to drop the level of salt as they have been salted to some extent since January 1?

:rolleyes:

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Here's the deal:

I added PC Tuesday night. Because the fish have not eaten, the water params were ammonia and nitrite 0, nitrate trace so I did not do a water change last night. Last night and this morning the fish barely moved, other than gill movement to breath. They sat in the corner together, fins clamped most of the time but erect sometimes.

They show no interest in food at all. Since I added the PC I've noticed a couple of things. Even less activity from both fish. Also the redness in D's tail really has not come back.

This afternoon I did a water change and reduced the salt to 0.25% and decided to leave out the PC and see how the fish would react. Since doing so, the redness ahs returned to D's tail (which if you've been following this thread at all, you'll remember comes and goes throughout the day). I thought perhaps it's red again because the PC was removed and he is now stressed because of having to fight the possible flukes and/or internal infection on his own.

The fish are more active BUT it's mainly because D is darting around kinda wildly, flicking his pectoral fins, and doing an occasional yawn. Then he'll go back and sit in the corner. Shoomey doesn't dart and has been a little more active since reducing the salt and removing the PC but still sits in the corner a large majority of the time.

So now I'm trying to decide if the PC is helping or harming. Is it better to have NO activity than the darting/flicking/yawning that I've observed since removing the PC? Should I add it back in tonight or leave it out?

I think continuing to lower the salt is a good idea as they have been salted since Jan 1. Anything the salt was going to take care of is either gone or is not going to be at these lower levels.

I just don't know what to do as far as the PC. Any suggestions, ideas, recommendations are welcome!! I know I am not thinking clearly anymore as this has been going on for so long and I have to admit I am spent--emotionally and even a bit physically with all the water changes and worrying.

What do all/any of my helpers think? <_<

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Another question: if you do think I should add the PC, should I do a water change and drop the salt to 0.1% (I would do a water change so it would be 12 hours apart from the last time I changed the water and dropped the salt level. Or is that dropping it too much too fast?)? That way I can leave the PC in for 48 hours, salted at 0.1% instead of 0.25%. I really want to get the salt levels down.

If I add the PC to their current 0.25% then they will be salted at a higher level for even longer . . . .

I'm torn between seeing more activity (even though it appears to be because of irritation :o ) and adding more chemicals (PC) back into the water . . . . Is the extreme lethargy I'm seeing with the PC in due to the fish not tolerating the PC well or they like being able to sit and let the PC attack whatever is ailing them? :hummm

I am obviously spending waaaaaay to much time thinking about this.

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Boy girl you are confusing me, you poor thing. I am looking at your last's couple replies and my head is swimming. I can't imagine what your's is doing....... :krazy:

Let's see if I can keep straight what I was thinking going thru while reading.

Oh the Dimilin, I would go for that. I know that you and Paul discussed it, and logic says that if the parasites that are taking care of with that med then truly you should see them...........but that is just it........should. What about the microscopic babies of those bugs????

I know that in anchorworm the babies can be present a while before the adults show up.

Hey it is worth a shot.

Next I would skip the PC and do the Prazi. Hit them hard and fast.

I think that if this is a "super" bug then PC may not be strong enough.

Ok those are my thoughts for a while.

Man, a girl has to keep up on this thread every couple hours or I get lost........... :linedrink :tomuch:

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Is there a reason you would do the dimilin before the prazi?

Two reasons I ask:

1. The prazi is on the way :rofl and should be here by Sat hopefully.

2. The symptoms they are exhibiting more likely point to flukes than anchorworm--don't they? (Just asking as, to be honest, I really don't know what symptoms they would ahve with anchorworm. I jsut thought you'd SEE them, didn't think about babies.)

Oh, and yes LaurieP, my head is :sick and :crazy::exactly

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Ok in answer to your question (from the pm) on whether you can do both prazi and dimilin at the same time...........I don't know.

With anchorworm I didn't use dimilin, I used Luferon (program for dogs). This is very very safe and can be used with most other drugs. I haven't been told that you can't use it with the prazi so I would think it is ok.

(I am very familar with luferon and it's uses) so I do think you can use them together.

I was unable to find Dimilin and since I have the Program already it was an easy choice for me.

With the program (luferon) it is one dose and that is it. You can treat a second time a day or 2 later but that is it.

What do you think?

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Oh if only I were a vet tech and had access to Program!! Wonder if I could prescribe it for D--pretend she's a person with a worm in her eye!! He he he . ..

Dimlin is available thru Goldfish Connection. I didn't see it anywhere else on the web. I could get some ordered, start on the Prazi when it gets here then add the dimlin? The only trick with dimlin (and I also read it is a one shot deal) is that they are in a sterile 10 gallon tank that i change the water every day. Would I jsut re-dose the dimlin then each day?

With them not eating I can probably go every other day but the water gets really cloudy by the end of 2 days without a water change.

If only they would eat I would feel MUCH better!!

Thanks for the quick response Laurie! :heart

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Well friend you are welcome.

I would ask Rick about the dimilin, and see what he says.

Then if he oks it, I would go for it.

Maybe treat them 3 days in a row with it. Just replace it with the water change.

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