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Parasite?


fantailfan1

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Oh bummer. Sorry about losing that cycle!!

Of course, Toothy will have his input. I welcome you to wait for him.

:)

But, I don't see why you can't start weaning them off the salt.

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Well I left them at 0.8% last night. Then when I fed them they would chew and then spit it out! I find it very strange that there symptoms had all but disappeared and then in the past few days, some symptoms have returned.

So either the chilo is still there and I'm jsut not finding it when I scope OR the chilo is gone and something else is irritating them.

I've decided I'm going to drop the salt to 0.7% tonight. I was re-reading my "discussion" with a reliable source from another forum and these 2 statements kinda stuck out:

"Whether the salt level is 0.6% or 0.8% or 1.0% is pretty much irrelevant, salt will not affect golfish in that range if added slowly enough, and that range of salt does a very good kill on about 95% of all fish parasites."

AND

"It will take another week to bring the salt down, so elevated salt will have been in the aquarium for three weeks. That should kill most all parasites which die from elevated salt content."

They have been at 0.6% or higher for 12 days. And if I wean them off the salt over the next 10-12 days that will mean they were at an elevated salt level for 3 weeks--which he says "should kill most all parasites which die from elevated salt content".

Of course the key there is "most all parasites". But I really think by that time I will have killed anything that is going to be affected by salt and if there is anything left after the 3 weeks it will either need to be treated with something other than salt or simply not treated. As my fish have been thru a lot, I don't know how they would handle a stronger treatment. We'll cross that bridge when we come to it. Toothy is working on a new treatment with Spud also so we'll see how that goes for them.

Well off to do fish stuff for the night.

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D and S have been at 0.7% for 3 days now.

I noticed some brown on Shoomey's "chin" and a little bit of black on her lips and anal fin. (I started another thread regarding this as I wasn't sure if anyone (mods)was following this thread.) I do have a bit of ammonia in the treatment tank that builds up over the 24 hours between water changes. LaurieP thinks perhaps that what it is. It is unchanged today so I will continue to watch it. I posted a few pics in my other thread:

http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...showtopic=40996

I also mentioned in that thread that D's tail was really really red this morning. As i continued to watch him, it became less red over several hours. It is difficult to know if all that redness is due to stress or what. Septicimia comes to mind. Then I caught Shoomey nibbling on his tail again. So I put the tank divider back in the tank and will monitor the redness.

Both fish continue to eat OK--always interested in food but they do spit out their pellets sometimes. Haven't seen them spit out a pea yet. A large majority of the time their dorsal fins are erect and they are active. D does bottom sit but not constantly and when he does his dorsal fin is usually erect. When I walk over to the tank he usually comes to the front of the tank (which is where I drop the food in).

I scoped again today and found no chilo. Let's hope it's gone and I'm not just missing it.

I will continue to decrease the salinity over this week and scope to see if I find anything.

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Now D won't eat. He shows interest but spits the food back out. He mostly sits in the corner and will swim around occasionally. His fins are not clamped. The redness in his tail comes and goes.

Hmmmm . . . . .

Shoomey ate jsut fine--just a little bit of spitting.

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Ok, not sure how much help I will be but here goes.

If he has eaten the peas and not the pellets, I would try again tomorrow with the peas. At least this will give him nutrients if he'll eat it.

WHat type of pellets is he on?

Have you tried force feeding it?

I am not sure what Toothy has said with decreasing the salt regimon, how fast can you take him down a notch?

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You can start taking them down .1%/day. Then you can increase if need be. Like in my case, I started decreasing at .1% to get to .7%. Then I went down to .55%. Then down to .4%. I slowly increased the amount of salt I was taking out as the days went on.

Sorry about D not eating....try to skip the pellets. Maybe they are too hard for him to chew? I switched to just gel food and peas - seemed to be the easiest thing to eat.

I would suggest going down to AT LEAST .6% tomorrow. More if you notice D still spitting out the food.

How is he otherwise? Any ongoing "chewing" or the like?

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Thanks for your responses, LaurieP and chico.

I will try peas again tomorrow. Gel food sounds like a good idea but I don't have any right now. I will look into making some tomorrow.

I ahve not tried to force feed him as tonight was the first time I saw him spit and not go back later and eat. I feed him ProGold pellets. Perhaps i could even give flakes a try?

I will take the salt down to 0.6% tomorrow. Perhaps even further.

Other than not eating he looks OK. I was quite surprised when he spit those peas out and didn't go back to them. :( He's not as active as he often is but he does swim around a bit. One of the reasons I took out the tank divider before was he seemed to sit around a lot when I had it in there. Keep in mind he is probably 7 or 8 inches including his tail and when he's in a 10 gallon tank divided there isn't much wiggle room!

Perhaps in the morning after I try to feed him I will take the divider out again and see how he does. Wish us luck!

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Don't know how/if this is significant but I jsut walked by the tank and D was pooing (I honestly cannot believe some of the things I post :rofl ). Anyway it was a loooong thick green poo. Must be the peas from this morning. But at least I know something went thru him AND it's not stringy and white.

And jsut for fun I decided to hold him and see how his abdomen felt just in front of his anal port. According to another site it should feel like the upper arm muscle when it's relaxed. If it's mushy like a fat stomach, it's infected. Well what I felt was this: down the center of his body it was firm and then off to either side it was softer. So I don't know what that means. I picked up Shoomey for comparison and it was the same right down the center was firm and off to either side was softer but maybe not as soft as D. Shoomey is a smaller fish so there wasn't as much space between her "center line" and where her muscle starts.

So I guess that little experiment didn't really pan out the way I had hoped.

I need to go :sleeping: now. More in the morning!

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D is still not eating this morning. I've done some research and it seems a good thing to treat fish that are not eating with is metrodizanole. It's one of the main ingredients in MetroMeds but of course he will not eat so that won't do me much good.

It is available as a tablet for use in water also. I will call around and see if I can find it locally. I found it on-line but it would probably take a few days to get here and I don't know if we can wait that long. It's also one of the ingredients in parasite clear but I think I would prefer to get soemthing that's got a higher concentration of it. I'll see what I can find.

In the mean time--what should I do about him not eating? LaurieP you mentioned force feeding--what does that involve and at what point do I do that?

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Here's a thought--since I have MetroMed on hand and force feeding may be needed anyway, is there a way to force feed pellets?

Can they be crushed and somehow force fed? Again, I'm jsut asking. Getting desperate.

The funny thing is D still ahs an erect dorsal fin and when I add food he seems interested he jsut spits it all back out. HIs fins are red again today but his body looks fine--no redness or pineconing, jsut shiny healthy looking scales.

I really feel as though I should do something though since he's not eating . . . .

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Alright - so he at least TRIES to eat?? Are these pellets really hard? Do you soak them?

How about crushing up the med food and just putting it in the gel food. You could try that. If you make the gel food w/the veggies, just throw it all in a food processor w/the med food. It's worth a shot.

I am not sure about the force feeding. Any advice I have may lead towards choking so let's wait for Laurie.

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Um I gave him freeze dried brine shrimp--very soft. He'd get some in his mouth and spit them out.

I was wondering if I could crush up the MetroMed and somehow get that in him. I don't think he would eat gel food at this point as he spits everything out.

Or maybe if I could find some metrodizanole as a bath treatment locally and got him started on that right away, he'd start eating on his own after a day or so?

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Found a product called Hex Out from Aquarium Products. The ingredients are: metronidazole, flagyl, imidazole-1-ethanol, and 2-methyl-5-nitro.

So would it be best to start this or try and force feed MetroMed?

If I do start this should I treat both fish as they ahve been sharing a 10 gallon tank? If I treat in separate tanks I will need to get another heater.

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Did you reduce the salt concentration yet today?

I have no idea what to tell you....

Maybe order the Hex Out, lower the salt. Maybe by the time the hex out arrives Big D will be eating again (and the hex out will be worthless).

How much is the Hex Out? Is it cost prohibitive?

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I actually found it here in town and it was only like $5 for 10 tablets (you use 1 tablet per gallon).

I wonder if I could start him in there, continue to try feeding him (maybe make some gel food), and once he starts eating feed him MetroMed (or, like you suggested--make gel food with crushed MetroMed)?

Do you think I should treat both of them? Shoomey looks ok and is eating well. I ahve a hard time believing that she won't be affected by this . .. .

Haven't reduced the slat concentration yet. I could get the new tank ready with 0.6% and add the Hex Out? Only prob is--will need another heater if treating them separately.

Edited by fantailfan1
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Me again!

I'm going to make some gel food with MetroMed and see if he'll eat any of it. If he won't swallow, then I will go with the HexOut. I went and got another heater and glass top, jsut in case. Didn't want the pet store to close and then decide I need them. I can always return them if I don't use them. . . .

Off to make gel food. *crosses fingers taht this works* :ill

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Sorry it took so long to reply, I went to late service at church and then to lunch with a friend we haven't seen in months.

I would try and feed the metromed. You can either do like you want with the gel food (although I wonder because with med food you are not suppose to feed other stuff?????)

Or you can hold him gently with one hand and force a pellet in his mouth with the other. If he spits it out redo it and so on.

The hex out I have not heard of, but metronadozole and flagyl are the same thing. So not sure on that........?????? It may work though.

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Tried the gel food. He was VERY interested yet spit it out anyway. He'd go back for more and then spit again. I don't know if in all of this he actually swallowed any or not.

Suppose I should try the gel food a couple more times before trying the HexOut? I would prefer the MetroMed as it fights parasites and bacteria so he'd be covered both ways with that. But he has to eat it first. Since the HexOut is more of a bath (dissolve the tablet in tank water) he's sure to get it though.

The other option would be to force feed (crushed?) MetroMed.

Hmmmmm . . . .

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I know how frustrating it is. The spitting food makes me wonder if the parasites are taking over again......this is a symptom of that.

Maybe it would be a good idea to go with the tablets in the water.

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Ok so this is where we are:

I transferred them to their clean tank for the night, salted to 0.6% (down from 0.7%). I left the tank divider out for a few hours to see how active they would be with a little more room to move. And, let me tell ya, if I didn't know that D hasn't eaten I would never suspect anything was wrong. Both fish were very active and really look quite good--no clamped fins.

Then I had to be evil fish mom and put the divider back in for feeding. Tried the gel food again with D. He went after it like there was no tomorrow. He did spit but I can't imagine that he didn't get at least some of that crushed MetroMed in him. He jsut kept going back for more, even the crumbles that remained after the "gel" was gone. He did spit a lot but like I said I'm pretty sure something got in him. Before I go to bed I will syphon out any remaining food and see if he leaves me any "presents". :)

When I fed Shoomey his pellets, he spit them out and didn't show any further interest in food. Just like D 24 hours ago. So I thought what the heck let's give her some gel food. She also went after it and spit but, unlike the pellets, she went for it every time I dropped more in.

So for now I think I am going to stick with the gel food for a couple of days and see what happens. Other than the spitting they look great and hopefully if they get some of the MetroMed in them it will kill off whatever is bothering them and get them even more interested in food. :feedme

As far as scoping, yes, every time I say I scoped D and S's tank, it is their current treatment tank. i believe I have scoped it at least 2, maybe 3, times without finding chilo. So I don't know if I'm missing something or if it's really gone. Which, to respond to LaurieP's comment on spitting being a sign of parasites, I've thought of that but since I've scoped and not found anything I've wondered if spitting is ever a sign of anything else?

Do you girls think it is reasonable to stick with the gel food for a couple more days and see what happens? Or do you think I'd be better off going with the tablets? (The one reason I would like to try the MetroMed is it has an antibacterial in it, whereas the tablet is solely anti-parasitic. However, the tablets are a sure thing as far as the anti-parasitic med getting to them.) One reason I think perhaps D is getting some food is he's been spitting for probably 3 or 4 days now and I would think if he truly wasn't getting any food he wouldn't be so active and would have clamped fins?

Oh this is jsut too much!! I really value your opinions in this. Thanks! :heart

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I would stick w/the gel food. LaurieP may have her own thoughts as well.

I have no idea what other problems could be had due to spitting out food. My fish never did that until the end...sorry - no experience in this one!

The activity sounds great. And at least they are trying to eat.

I wonder if salt leaves a bad taste in their mouth??? :unsure:

(that was meant to be a joke, but now that I think about it.....??)

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Ya know, they are freshwater fish that have been salted to some extent for 22 days now . . .. I would think it woud do something to them? Just think how your mouth would feel being exposed to all that salt? :hmm

I'll stick with gel food for tomorrow morning anyways as I'm working and don't really think I can squeeze a water change into my morning routine!

I'm off to syphon out the leftover food (there's more on the bottom than I was hoping :( ). But with all that interest in the food I'd like to stick it out at least a day or so.

Oh and as far as the gel food, LaurieP, all I added to the unflavored gelatin was crushed MetroMed. I don't know if gelatin counts as another food or not . . . .

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I think it would be ok to try the gel food a few more days, especially since there is only meds and gelatin in it.

I don't know if Paul had told you but I do know that he had many scrapings that were negative only for it to turn up a little later.

:idont

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Yes he had told me that. That's why I continue to scope. I know it's very possible there is still parasites in there but considering all we've done with these poor fish I don't know what else I could do if I did find them.

Fed them more gel food this morning. Don't know how much actually got swallowed again. Will try again tonight and see how it goes. I'll be able to keep a closer eye on them again tomorrow as I won't be working.

I'll keep ya posted!

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