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Slightly Cloudy Water & No Nets


Guest Lavisa

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:angry: I know how people hate repeat questions and yes I have been reading lots of posts and do not find my answer yet. BUT I have found loads of excellent information! :) I have had aquariums for at least 26 years now, since I received one for a gift. I have a 10 with platies, a 29 with tiger barbs and neons and glow lights and a 20 with neon dwarf gouramies. (sorry if I misspelled) This summer a started a pond! Love it, but soon they will have to come in. So I set up a 45 gallon yesterday and took a hollow log (tunnel type they hid in when they were first put in pond) from the pond and put in tank hoping for beneficial bacteria. And brought one of my comets in from the pond to cycle the tank. I have a bio wheel powerfilter and 28 inches of bubble rods running along the back and a Hydro sponge III (store was out of IV) Figured I had other fileration so would be ok. I feed Pro Gold to the pond and now the tank and peas. No peas in the 45 yet. Sorry to be so windy. I am a little cloudy today, not bad just slightly. And for the life of me I cannot remember what that is. Ok or bad. I have an ammonia meter on side that says good but have not tested yet. I have a spotted cory eating any left over food. But Sassy eats whatever she sees, sometimes it hits the bottom if she doesn't see it drop.

Also concerned about that I read on goldfish connection, never to use nets with goldfish. How will I ever get them out of the pond? And I used a net for her.

Also I put 8 tablespoons of salt in the 45. Was that to soon should I have waited for the nitrate spike? I started the tank with Amquel and Cycle and salt.

I would also like to get live plants for the tank even though I know how the goldfish destroy them. I had 2 orandas in a tank that ate every plant I bought. Some would come back from the root and BAM they had them gone!

I hope someone actually takes the time to sort through my useless information for my questions. :D

Lori

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Ok, no worries, we can help you sort this out just fine. :D

Firstly, we need to know a few stats:

How many fish and how big are they (from the pond)?

Wich bio-wheel filter do you have?

Other than everything you are doing, I suggest a few extras if these fish are sizable fish or there are quite a few:

Over abundance of bio-filtration. Use as many sponge filters as you can. Undergravel filtration is a plus here. Reduce feeding throughout the winter months or reduce feeding with meat based foods. Veggies are great for a low protein diet.

Hope this helps some. Post back soon. :)

Paul

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I have a Marineland Bio- wheel I think 200. I did order a Hydro sponge IV from goldfish connection it is kind of a double decker of the III. In my other tanks I have added a round filter sponge to the uptake on the power filter for extra beneficial bacteria.

Ok now the hard question how many I have in the pond. Honestly I am not sure

since I cannot see them. I think 6. Most were all small when I got them like 1 inch. 4 were 1 inch feeder fish because nnnnnn was out of anything else and I was anxious. (we live in a town where nnnnnn is the only fish store we have) One was a like 2.5 or 3 inch Sarassa Comet which is the one I have put in the tank and I think it is about 4 inches now. Hard to measure he does not stand still. And we got a Calico fish I cannot remember if it was a small fantail or just a normal one. (I mean like a comet) But all the fish were quite small when I put them in the pond. Well it is really hard to get a good look at them in the pond (lots of water hyachen?? and water lettuce on the top) I only get a glimps of them when I feed them and still cannot count them the way they dart around. I would have bought a bigger tank but was worried about the weight of a 45 in the upstairs of our house. I only lost one feeder when adding them to the pond.

But I went on a trip to New York and Massechucetts (sp?) for 10 days and someone else and my husband were taking care of them. One day the neighbors cattle got out (100 degree day) and came across our field and drank both my ponds. I also have a 20 gallon wiskey barrell one with no fish. Fish are still alive so some water must have been left, but since I was not here I do not know the condition of the pond when my husband got home. Thank God for the plants shading the pond or they may have scorched. I hope in the process of drinking the cattle did not get a little meat if you know what I mean!!. :cry1 But I feed Bio Gold and they do seem very healthy but like I said what I can see. Sassy looks terrific. I actually cannot wait to get them in a tank so I can actually watch them.

But I must add that when I bought these fish the tanks said 5-6 inches long is what they get. Now I read in a post over 8 inches even!!

Sorry so windy again.

Lori

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Do you think when I get the Hydro sponge IV I should add it too instead of swapping it with the III? And do you use nets? Or how do you move the fish?

Thank You so much for your post forgot that in my reply.

I read a post that said it would help cycle my tank if I took a filter from another well established tank and shake it in the 45, so I did. But now I think a intoduced a few snails. :unsure: Oh well they are bound to come anyway.

Oh BTW even in the house slow down the feeding of the fish?

Thanks again,

Lori

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Boy I must be crazy!! Or just obsessed. Do I measure the fish including the tail? If not my comet is only about 3 inches long. Approx of course.

Lori

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Sorry for the delay in answering. I'm usually more punctual than that..... :)

Rest assured, your not crazy. You just have a healthy amount of concern for your pond beauties! :heart

Well, I think you are going to have to up the filtration considerably for these fish. It is generally recommended to have at least 100 gph for every ten gallons of tankwater. But, for an overcrowded tank, 150 gph, per ten gallons, should be provided.

An ideal condition for these fish would be to utilize an undergravel filter with 1 1/2 iches of gravel. You should push the penguin filter over to one side of the back of the tank and run the intake tube into the undergravel filters uptube. Then the other undergravel plate should be run with a powerhead that pushes 200-300 gph. Then, the two hydor spongefilters you have should be run with aerators/airstones towards the middle of the back of the tank.

Heres a diagram of what I mean:

post-1193-1125931385_thumb.jpg

All in all, you need to ensure that the water in the tank is getting enough bio-filtration to keep the ammonia and nitrItes at 0ppm, AT ALL TIMES, once the cycle has established. There are MANY ways to do this. I am suggesting a way to do this that is the cheapest while utilizing the tools you already have.

Lemme know if theres anything about the diagram above that needs some clarification..... ;)

Paul

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You can measure the fish tail and all.

You can use nets if you like but I believe that a container just big enough to hold each fish should be used to catch and transport to the tank. Either way, really.

Yes, reduce feeding throughout winter. The idea is to reduce the amount of ammnia that is coming into your tank. At lest until you can get the bio-filter going strong.

Yep, pondfish get LARGE. Comets and commons regularly get at least 8 inches long if kept in a pond.

By the way, how many gallons is your pond?

Paul

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My pond is 125 gallons. After I bought it Menards had a sale on bigger one for much cheaper But already had it all set up and going. I am a little angry that nnnnnn has 6 inches max on size comets get. I now know that is probably only at the end of the first 6 months!! I think it said 6 inches for the feeders too. It may not say because they do not think tHey will be living! I just know in South Dakota with a pond that size they will freeze solid in the winter and have to get them out. I did not get koi because I knew how big they got, found out to late about the others. If I have to next year after the pond season may have to get a tank for other daughters room. She is in basement so I can go bigger.

I did not do undergravel because of the bad things you hear about them now days. AND in the winter around here we have lots of power outs and in my research learned the with a undergravel system could lead to tragedy in an outage with the stuff underneath acting like poison. But I do have the Penguin 200 which if I figured it right only circulates the water 4 times an hour? Why do they sell them saying they are for 50 gallon tanks!? And right now I have the Hydro sponge III, but do have the Hydro sponge IV coming. I could put one on each back corner. I have a heater in the tank which right now I have it unplugged but our house is old and in the winter it can get 50 degrees up there. I swear it is colder at times but depends on if it is blizzarding or which way the wind is blowing.

I also made the mistake of setting the tank up to close to the wall. The power filter barely fits behind there. I am perfectly willing to get a bigger one or other one but cannot be wider, can be longer thought. I want to get live plants but none were available now. The heater is a titanium one with the tempeture control on the plug in. I love them and have great faith in them, plus nice not to have to shove my hand in the tank to find out later was to high or not high enough.

Ok this is what is going on today. We tested the water. First this is what I did, I may have already said but... When I set up the tank Friday I added Amquel, 8 tablespoons aquarium salt and recommended dose of Cycle. Then Friday night or Saturday I read about helping tank cycle by swishing the filter of well established tank in new tank. So I did that and took the sponge I had in the filter and put it in the slot in front of the filter of new tank. And Sunday I added another gold fish to first one. SOOOO today we tested water, the Ammonia came back 0 and nitrites 0 and nitrates 5.0. What does this mean? Have I not even started to cycle yet, and how could that be with 2 fish in there? Or could I have jumped right through point A and B and now am already at point C, so to speak?? I had also added a hollow fake log from the pond and forgot 3 of the little bulb aquarium plants you get in a small package from nnnnnn. BTW this is the first time I have gotten them things to grow, I just threw them in the pond 6 weeks ago and thought what the heck! And poured a couple quarts of pond water in there. My only fear right now is the tank is warmer than I want (that is why I completely unplugged heater even though it was on the lowest setting) but it is warm upstairs. I keep telling myself that outside when it was 100 degrees this summer the pond was warmer than 76-78.

Ok please direct me. Beside the undergravel part I will try to do whatever I am told to keep my fish alive. Also really not able to do the tank in basement this year because my husband would kill me. And she has way to much cleaning to do in her over crowded room.

Thank You!!!

Lori

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Sorry that last post was so crazy long. All of my tanks need extenders to make power filters go closer to the gravel. 3 of my tanks have round tubes but this new one the Penguin 200 has rectangle tubes. I went to www.marineland.com and found nothing about extenders. So I went to mmm.com and no luck either. What do I do the 45 gallon tank only goes maybe halfway down?

Thanks again,

Lori

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If you already have a filter that will pull all of the suspened solids from the tank, then UGF filters are the best thing for you to supplement the bio-filtration rate with.

Undergravel filtration seems to have been cast aside in recent years. While I can understand that they arent the easiest filtation set-ups to clean, they ARE, however, VERY good sources of biologcal filtration. In fact, they are perhaps the best form of biological filtration available, besides wet/dry filters. Imagine every single peice of gravel on the bottom being a host for beneficial bacters. See what I mean?

The only drawback to utilizing undergravel filtration is the you have to periodically clean under the plate. Your worries of power outtages are easily quelled. If your power goes out, none of your filters will work. Except for your undergravel filters. Just purchase as many of these: http://www.bigalsonline.com/catalog/catego...ategory_id=3956 as you have under gravel plates w/uptubes. When your power goes out, switch from using powerheads to run the UGF's to using the aerators. This will keep water circulating through the gravel, thus keeping your beneficial bacterias alive.

For a temporary tank with limited space and filtration, such as yours, a UGF filter as added bio-filtration will SURELY keep your water as clean as need be. Your tank is small and will be overstocked throughout winter, so you are going to need very strong bio-filtration. I feel that your best bet would be sponge filters and ugfs to supplement the bio-filtration that the powerfilter will be struggling with. The Penguin 200 is exactly half of the recommended filtration rate for a 40 gallon tank. But, that is for a perfectly stocked tank. Since your tank will house many more goldfish than it optimally should, filtration is going to be a worry unless you provide tons of bio-filtration without increasing the waterflow, or currents too much for them. Thus, my suggesting UGF's.

You dont need to go and purchase anything expensive to extend your intake tubes, or to connect a square tube to a round one. Try using vinyl tubing like in this picture:

post-1193-1126125482_thumb.jpg

Experimenting with different inner diameters might be needed, but it does work and works well. Using vinyl tubing would allow for you to hook your bio-wheel filter up to a UGF.

As for the reason your tank hasn't shown any ammonia or nitrItes, I think you were actually able to get enough bneficial bacteria from the log to seed your tank. But, keep testing daily to be sure. To help speed this up, use some of the brown goo from the ponfilter. Swish some pondflter media around in the tank and get a bunch of it to come loose and flowing around in the tank. Once the powerfilter sucks it up into itself, your tank will be cycled withing 2-3 days.

If money is not an option, your actual best bet would be to use two of the penguin 200's and a couple spongefilters. That would certainly provide enough bio-filtration for your needs. If your looking to save some cash on a tank that is only going to be used for a 3rd of the year, UGF's, sponges and the powerfilter si the way to go.

six of one, half a dozen of the other...... ;)

Lemme know what you think and I'll help you brainstorm a bit more.

Paul

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I did a 25% water change tonight. The ammonia seems to be between .25 and .50 before the water change and I added more Amquel. To bad I did not read this earlier I had to change the pond filter today, boy was it bad. Now I will have to wait. I rotate filters for the pond between 2. The fish are swimming around just fine. The goldfish do not like much current? I will gladly add another Penguin 200 and on Thursday when my Hydro sponge comes I will put that in too.

Should I soak it in the pond first? The Hydro sponge says I could put a powerhead on the top of it's tube. Would that be good or bad? Is the tubing you are using to extend, a rubber tubing or is it like the tube of the python cleaning hose? I know I need to get that intake tube down because it is not getting stuff from the bottom of the tank. I vacuumed alot of poop up so I understand how they can be an overload if we do not keep up with them. And that is just 2 fish. I have never had a tank that I had to do water changes once a week. Thank goodness for the Python! Takes a 1/2 hour or 45 minute job and turns it to 10 minutes max! The major load on the tank will be from the middle of Sept. to April or beginning of May. I guess it depends on what kind of a spring we have. But my daughter will not want it sitting empty in the off time so she will either have to keep a couple fish in or put in a couple Mollies. She loves the sailfins.

I seen a 55 gallon in town today for $299. that is the WHOLE setup. With a beautiful wooden stand with 2 doors, hood/lighting, power filter and a whole list of things. I would love to get that for my other daughters room. Can you tell me the average cost of running an aquarium setup? My husband thinks it jacks the electricity way up. I suppose it is hard to know just wondering if there is a ballpark figure.

Thanks again!

Lori

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Would a canaster pump work instead or better than another Penguin 200?

Like a Fluval? I have never had or worked with one but if it would be better than the Penguin I would learn.

Lori

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Absolutely! A canister filter is possibly the answer to your problems!

I would suggest the Fluval 204 of your going with Fluvals: http://www.hagen.com/usa/aquatic/product.c...=01002050020101

Yep, with a canister filter, your tank will remain uncluttered with sponges and all the rest. All you'll need is the Penguin and the fluval running it. ;)

Paul

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Wow that would be fantastic! I will have to do a little research now.

they are a canister that sits on the floor, but is it tubes that come up the back

and just a setup that suctions to the back of the tank? Or Am I just confusing it with something else?I will go to the site you gave me now.

Thank You!

Lori :exactly

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I am sorry I have not gotten used to this site. I posted another post about my tanks and that I added a 29 gallon now. But I read a post where someone was told not to post twice it is confusing. I am sorry I must have done that too. Other sites I have been a member of you just post again. I do not intend to annoy anyone.

Anyhow, Paul if you are reading this was wondering what you think of the setups.

Just to recap I have the 45 with the Penguin 200, the

Fluval 204 and have the hydro sponge IV in there too. I added a package of Bio Spira and have done 2 water changes since it was set up the 2nd of Sept. I forgot to test before the water change and vacuum today, but tested afterwards. Results: Ammonia- 0 Nitrite- .25 Nitrate- 5.0. I add Amquel (plus?) when I do the changes. We have 2 green cories and 2 goldfish in there. Everything looks great. I set up the 29 on the 8th, I also added Bio Spira to it. I have a Penguin 200 and a whisper for a 20 gallon (the type you can add to a turtle tank, just though a little boost to the 200) and the hydro sponge III. I am sorry I do not have the test readings from that but they were pretty good I think the ammonia was .25 and nitrite was 0 and nitrate was 5.0.

I am honestly not sure about my numbers. Do they look good or not so good. I would say they were good if the tanks were not so new now I do not know if the Bio Spira worked or not. I put that in the 9th.

Would appreciate your opinion,

Thank you,

Lori

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Sounds great!

All in all testing will reveal where there are any problems. If by the end of one week, you still have nitrItes on any results, a little bit more filtration should be added. But, I honestly think that this will do. You have 2 power filters and one sponge filter on each tank, right? Thats about as good as it gets! :D

Keep us posted on the results! :D

Paul

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Sorry I did not see your reply. Yes I have two power filters and a sponge filter in each. In the 45 I am not really happy how huge the hydro sponge is, but want what is best for the fish. I also got plants in the tanks today. I am sorry to say I am disappointed in Bio spira, the guy said the tank should be cycled in a day or 2. Mine has been in for 1 week and I think since my ammonia is .50 and nitrites are 0 I would say my tank is not cycled. My only encouragement is that the nitrates are 5.0 but even that is nothing, just better than 0.

Patience right?

What do you think about the numbers? OK? Do you agree 0 nitrites is not good with ammonia at .50? I know that is not horrible as it can get and I have Amquel plus in the tank.

Thank you,

Lori

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I would give it a little time. If you have the tank overstocked, even with excess filtration it could take a few for the cycle to become strong enough to handle the bio-load.

Here is a link to a page that will tell you how much of ammonia can exist on your test kits before it becomes toxic to your fish: http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...showtopic=35322

Hope this helps!

Paul

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Paul,

Thank you again. I took my tests this morning. First I added plants yesterday like I said, and today the tak is the clearest it has been. It is beautiful and sparkly, anything to do with the plants or coinsidence? Sorry I am starting a migraine so having a hard time even seeing my screen but I want to figure this out. OK my ammonia .25 nitrite (it is finally moving off 0) .50

and nitrate 5.0 and ph is 8.0.

The ph around here is the way it is and I feel it is more stressful for the fish if I keep trying to bring it down so I leave it alone.

Ok I only had 2 goldfish in there and 2 cories. But yesterday I brought in 2 more from the pond because it was 44 degrees and was worried it was to cold. I know that was just the air temp outside and maybe it was warmer in the tank since it is right next to the house, AND they can probably handle that but worries me.

OK I brought in 2 a common plain goldfish all orange about 3 inches long and a itty bitty fantail that I never even remember getting. Just to prove I am not crazy the kids say we never got one either. :krazy: I do not know!! But he is so little and cute. I think he is 1 inch to 1.5 inches. Well he was fine last night and still happy and swimming around today. BUT today he has a tear in his tail fin. Like the tip is torn and hanging there. He doesn't even seem to bother but should I put meds in to heal it? He is shaped like a lionhead but with the back fin. His back fantail is short and stubby and his whole body wiggles to propel himself. Since he is so small I have been watching closely that he eats because the others are faster to the food.

Meds or no? I do have (?) metromed and jumpstart from goldfishconnection.

I feed Progold and spiroluna and peas. Not all at the same of course.

Thank you very much again!!

Lori

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Keep up with the waterchanges so that the ammonia and nitrItes remain low.

Did you perform waterchanges after you added the bio-spira? If so, this will effectively remove some of the nitrifying bacters from the water column and make the cycling take longer.

Here's what I suggest:

Go the the pond and remove the filterfloss that traps dirt and debris. Take that floss and swish it around in a bucket of water for a while. Get as much of the brown gunk off the floss as you can. Once you have a nice brown slurry, take the bucket of water and pour it into the tank. This will cause your tanks water to become a slurry itself. But, the filters will quickly remove it and deposit the brown gunk in the filters. This will boost your cycle by a huge margin and will make it happen much faster.

As for the fantail with spits in his fin, once the parameters settle into a complete cycle, the split will heal. I have seen a 2 inch slit heal up virtually overnight. No need to medicate. When taking a fish indoors from cold weather, themperature changes MUST be allowed to happen slowly. Otherwise, it can and will certainly cause un-needed stress.

Good luck and keep us posted! :)

Paul

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Thank you for replying so soon. I have done that with the pond filter and with an established filter. But will do it again if you think I should.

I did do a water change after the Bio spira but it was it was like 4 days after maybe 3. Did I still fudge it? My filter is kinda gunky from that because it was even doing the overflow thing off to the side from the powerfilter. I had to swish it lightly to to clear it up to flow through the right spot again.

I floated the fish in a bag last night over a half hour to 45 minutes because the outdoor pond is much colder than the tank. After floating for 20 minutes I started adding water from the tank to the bag then after a few times of that I added the fish. They were just fine then. They even ate right away.

I have not done a waterchange since Sunday do you think it time? And there is salt in the tank but have done 2 water changes and dod not add again. The water changes we 25- 30% or so not sure. Now how much should I add in the 45 again. I am so sorry but the % of salt makes my head spin. And can you tell me how you get all the salt to desolve? I always stir and stir and still some gets poured in crystal form.

Thank you again!

Lori

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Warm, dechlorinated tapwater works great for dissolving salt. ;)

If the water bypasses the cartridge, it could be a major contributor to the ammonia rising or not falling all the way to 0. Make sure the canister is running at full blast as well. check the floss and see if its clogged a bit and rinse it accordingly. Do not mess with the bio-media in the bio-chambers. If you have lots of gravel left in your pond, you can remove a lot of it and put it in a pantyhose toe-section and place it in a high-flow area of the tank. this also helps colonization of beneficial bacteria.

I don't think you botched the bio-spira. It could be that that particular batch was allowed to die off without refridgeration. These things do happen. Not to worry, you are obviously close to having your tank fully cycled. Keep plugging away at it and youll have gotten it to cycle just fine.

Paul

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Do you use Bio Spira? And have you had a tank cycle in a couple days? I Caught the bipass of the water quickly and took care of it and now I am keeping a close eye on it. But one thing I am not doing is I do not have the canister on full blast. The fish guy said not to much current for goldies and it was quite strong so I have it turned down. I can certainly push the thing down and get it running full blast again. I went around the house and took the filters out and swished in dechlorinated water and went out to the pond and cleaned the filter in the water to.

Then I went down to the 29 gallon took out some water for testing and did a water change and added the icky stuff.

the test came out Ammonia between .50 and 1.0

Nitrites .25

Nitrates between 5.0 and 10

Ph is 8.0

My daughter said the tank is clear already.

What do you do when the test doesn't really look like the one color but yet not as dark as the next color down? I just assume it is in between .

Thanks,

Lori

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Sorry I forgot to ask... I did not put gravel in the bottom of my pond, should I in the spring? I had a couple fake plants and a fake ornament log and loads of water lettuce and water hyacinth. I worry about gravel a little now cause a piece got stuck in my comets mouth last night. I was so worried he would die. So what about river rock. But then they will not get food that falls to the bottom will they? That would not be good. I love that they are so good at cleaning up scraps.

Thanks again,

Lori

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