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Champs From Stores?


demekin42

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Is is possible to get show quality fish from lfs? I mean if I were to get two fish from my lfs and breed them could I cull for the best and maybe get show quality fish? Or do I need to get a fish from a reputable breeder or import one from Asia? Just curious? :huh:

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not an expert in this, but show quality fish from LFS? nope. breed a champ from 2 LFS fish? very hard, but almost impossible. it's hard even to produce show quality offspring from champion parents.

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Guest mickey85

I'll tell you why, and relate it to Bettas...

When I was a freshman, I had the smart notion that I could take a pet store male, and 4-5 pet store females, and get families of different colors based on what the parents were. For instance, I had an all white female (albino, no apparent genetic qualities to be passed on) and a red veiltail male. I assumed that the great number of the offspring would look like dad, right? Wrong. the female threw some of her genes in there and I got everything from pink to blue to black to a gorgeous brown one.

This was really not helpful, because this was being done for an undergraduate research project, so that set me back a month. HAd to spend $75 on a good, breeder quality pair of fish and go from there...then after the project, I'd throw one of my pet store females in with the show male and see what happened. EVen with champion bloodlines on one side of the family, I still got a whole hodgepodge mix of colors and styles. This time though, some had veil tails, some had crown tails, and one even had a split tail!

So, the genetics of pet store fish are highly questionable, and you basically get what you pay for with that kinda stuff...

BTW, after that year, I got out of bettass...sold all my fish and made a ridiculous profit. With a $300 beginning payment, I made something like $750 back. Those babies helped me out big time for that...But then again, I had probably 35-40 babies that made it. And yes, I lived in a dorm, and yes, there were jars and tanks and everything everywhere. I have one picture of my desk where there are 3 2.5 gallon tanks under the shelf with the light on them, and 2 10 gallon tanks that were divided into 1/3rds for MORE males with a couple pickle jars in the middle, and then a ten gallon tank on the side of the desk for females, and then a growout tank on my dresser. Not to mention the pickle jars just sitting around, on the windowsill (in front of the curtains so it was dark), randomly on my desk, all over my dresser...I used the 10 gallon as a counterbalance, and moved all my clothes to the closet, so I opened all the drawers and stacked them, then filled those with pickle jars. I wish I had a picture of THAT. I'll tell you what, water changes once a week were KILLING me.

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Hmm i'm very inexperienced with this breeding stuff, and i always wanted to ask these questions :

Is it best to mate the parents when they're in their prime (perfect health, perfect condition, perfect colouration, etc) to get the best result? Or will the result be more or less the same when the parents are in less-than perfect condition?

Can a majorly defective offspring of champion parents mated with another majorly defective offspring of champion parents produce a show-quality offspring with the characteristics of its champion grandparents?

cheers ;)

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You know Im not an expert but from what Ive learned and read i would believe it is possible, only because the genes of the champions parents are still in there somewhere. And then again I think it depends on what the defects are. If that particular defect seems to be a dominant trait then more of your offspring may show the same defect, decreasing your chances of getting the perfect offspring. Im not sure though, Im just talking lol! Iwant to learn more but from what I have read I *think* that is how I understand it. I am very curious about breeding also. I have asked hubby for the book Goldfish Breeding and Genetics for my birthday in 2 weeks!!!

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Guest mickey85
Hmm i'm very inexperienced with this breeding stuff, and i always wanted to ask these questions :

Is it best to mate the parents when they're in their prime (perfect health, perfect condition, perfect colouration, etc) to get the best result? Or will the result be more or less the same when the parents are in less-than perfect condition?

Can a majorly defective offspring of champion parents mated with another majorly defective offspring of champion parents produce a show-quality offspring with the characteristics of its champion grandparents?

cheers ;)

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With your first question, I'd assume that goldfish are like bettas. Genetics are the same for anything whether they're a newborn or they're about to die. They're EASIER to breed in their prime, and require less downtime between "sessions" but as far as quality of their fry, it really doesn't matter. With the second question...yes. Pick up a book on genetics, it's really fascinating. If a fish has a dominant trait (usually body/fin/eye colors and other things like tail shape, overall body shape, etc) that will be passed onto their offspring. If you have a fish that is missing one of those traits (say you have a ryukin with a straight spine instead of curved), their offspring will more than likely HAVE that trait because it is dominant. Kinda confusing unless you can see genetic charts and such.

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Guest mickey85

Also, if you are breeding for a specific trait...find a show quality male that's exactly like what you want, then find a female that has literally no traits at all. Albinos typically work best, but ask around and see what is the "purest" specimen you can get. That way, you don' thave to worry about 2 forms of genes mixing...and you might get some albinos of your own!

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Also, if you are breeding for a specific trait...find a show quality male that's exactly like what you want, then find a female that has literally no traits at all.  Albinos typically work best, but ask around and see what is the "purest" specimen you can get.  That way, you don' thave to worry about 2 forms of genes mixing...and you might get some albinos of your own!

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wow that's interesting. but bettas are quite similar in shape & sizes, and goldies are quite different. so say i got this really great male ranchu with all the characteristics i desired, so i gotta find an albino female ranchu or an albino common (which will comply your saying "has literally no traits at all"?)?

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Guest mickey85

I mean within subspecies...

For instance, you could get a white female ranchu and a red male ranchu, and their offspring would be primarily red with some white and red and whites mixed in.

With bettas, it's all about the tails. a crowntail mating with a veiltail will give you a mix and some almost crowntails (160*'s, etc), same with double tails, etc. That is how you can get a crowntail with a double tail, or a double tail veiltail, etc.

of course, this is all assuming you have good breeding stock.

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genetics are wild....I dont know if it matter if you have a goldfish from the lfs or a "champion"...

I had my two male comets mate with a couple fantails and a couple orandas and in the first spawning, the majority of the offspring looked like the father as far as tail fins are concerned(single tailed). THe second and third spawns gave me more fancy goldfish(double tailed)...I can only wait until they get a little older to see how's an oranda and whos a fantail...and who knows...maybe I will get a comet with a wen...lol :krazy:

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Guest labrat99

I think that you can do alright with a breeding program based on LFS stock. In my experience, you can aquire some very nice fish if you buy them as babies and raise them yourself. Also, you have to be very patient when buying. Sometimes months can go by before a decent fish is to be found in a tank of babies. When you do spot it though you need to buy it. That means always being less than fully stocked so that when the opportunity comes along you can take advantage of it. If you have a good eye for selecting fish, have a good eye for selecting breeding partners and have patience and skills to successfully breed, you can do it.

You need to balance all that against the advantage of starting with high quality stock obtained from a breeder of winning goldfish. That saves you a bunch of time since you won't have to raise several generations of fish trying to develop a line with the traits that you are looking for.

Good Luck.

Labrat

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I still maintain that no matter how good your LFS fish LOOK, you can never tell the genetics of the fish.

Right. If you breed fish that dont have pure bloodlines there is no way to really tell what your gonna get. Um this may sound kind of crude, but this is how someone explained fish genetics to me:

Say two white people decided to have a baby. One of the people had a chinese person in their family a few generations back. When they have a baby, it could look chinese. That is the way goldfish genetics work.

Lol! Forgive me if that is wrong, that is how someone from other group explained it to me.

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Say two white people decided to have a baby. One of the people had a chinese person in their family a few generations back. When they have a baby, it could look chinese. That is the way goldfish genetics work.

Lol! Forgive me if that is wrong, that is how someone from other group explained it to me.

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:lol: quite right. not as pronounced in humans, but i think that's a good way to describe GF genetics :D

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