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Caviar-like Problem W Ulcers


Guest Mrs. Raven

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Guest Mrs. Raven

Janet, a telescope eye goldfish, has what looks like caviar spilling out from under her scales. It started out with lethargy hanging out at the bottom of the tank. I took a look as this was the first sign of trouble. I noted an ulcer on her side too. The caviar spots have multiplied.

Water conditions kept good by measuring nitrites and nitates using water changes to keep as low as possible. Feeding sulfa-medicated food. Eating well. Clamped fins. Lethargic.

Treating w/antibiotics, clout, MelaFix, PimaFix, CopperSafe, Salt @ 0.3%, Ammonia Lock

Unable to find anything to describe this condition....

Thank you...

Mrs. Raven

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:welcome

Perhaps if possible, you could take a photo? Unless your Fish are really squirmish like mine... :P

If you still have nitrites, I'm assuming your still cycling? Have you tested your Ammonia?

Well, I'm just a n00b, so I can't tell right off the top of my head what the problem is called...

To me it sounds like your doing mostly all you can, Good Luck with your fish. I hope they get better soon. :D:goodluck

If you could please answer as many of the questions in the white box, that would surely be helpful to other members who come to help. (No offense)

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Guest Mrs. Raven

Delighted to have a response!

pH is at just about 7.2,

Ammonia untestable as I'm using Ammonia Lock

Keeping low nitrite/nitrate levels with water changes as the bound-up ammonia breaks down...no cycling as all bacteria dead with antibotics... Water changes as needed by nitrite and nitrate levels at testing

Additives: melafix, pimafix, coppersafe, salt 0.3%, stresscoat (at repair, stress level dosage), malachite green, acriflavan, clout, tetracycline, erythromycin

Eating MediGold...(sulfa)

Lethargic behavior...Appetite lower than normal, but eating some...

Most aquarium store staff, and I've made the rounds, are baffled as to what it is and tell me I'm doing all that can be done...

Any help for a new goldfish caregiver is appreciated....

Thank you very much,

Mrs. Raven

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Hi and welcome.

My I ask what is a cavier? Can you describe it better?

Also with all those meds you are using in the tank could be adding to your problem. While conditions often require a med fish are very sensitive and the meds can hurt them worse than the condition you are treating.

I would stop all meds but the Medigold, keep tabs on the water params Please post them it is important.

Give them a few days without meds, this will give them a break while the medigold will still help them.

Also it may be beneficial to switch from ammolock to Prime (i recommend highly) so you can know where the ammonia really is.

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When you say caviar, you mean like fish eggs right? Are they just like fish eggs, or do they look like white grains of salt that are multiplying all over the body, this could be an Ich infestation, but the ulcer sound like an internal bacterial infection. I can't really say for certain. Can you send us a picture of these symptoms?

And LaurieP is right, putting all those meds in will be totally stressing your fish out this will not help her, infact it could be doing more damage to your fish! A lot of these meds are toxic by themselves (such as copper) and the dose is right for when you are just treating with one med, but the combination you have could be interacting with each other and creating toxic subtances which is not good for your fish.

Definitely keep up the water changes, you seem to be doing the right thing there, but I'd cut it all back to just salting the water (and adding some form of ammonia locking substance) and feeding it the antibiotic food. If what you're describing is Ich the salt shoud take care of it and the antibiotic food will take care of the internal infection.

Good luck!

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Yes, I'm curious to your description as well. What colour are the things coming out from under the scales, how big? Could, indeed, be ich.

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Guest Mrs. Raven

Thanks for the feedback...

I have another long tail as to the success I had with the above-described chemical soup...but that is for another day....

My "caviar" description was a wee bit sexier than "poppyseeds". The appearance of this looks like a bunch of poppyseeds or caviar seeping out as a flat, body-hugging protrusion and is black or very dark brown in colour. I saw this under a strong magnifying glass. Imagine placing poppyseeds on a countertop or table and place them in a single layer nested together so you will get as many seeds in a space as possible.

I am not as certain as to what appears to be some additional patches. I have yet to get a really good look. The placing of the initial patch is about 1/4 inch toward her head from the tail. Her size is about 2 to 2 1/2 inches from mouth to beginning of tail. I have had Ick before and this is not on the surface of her scales or look like salt or sugar. It is as if it starts under a scale and gets pushed out as more poppyseeds are added. It is does not appear to be growing quickly and if it were not for her lethargy, I probably would not have noticed.

As for eggs, I'm not certain she is really a girl. My names are after characters on a British comedy I love. It was suggested by a family member it might be eggs, but I pretty much thought this had been worked out long before fish grew legs. Mother Nature didn't think seeping eggs through our skin was the best way to work the reproduction dance.

I have had to make serious water changes with no bacteria. I have some bacteria starter and should be up and running with a cycling tank soon.

Kindly,

Mrs. Raven

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Okay, that clear a few things up. :)

Have you added anything to the tank, new fish, plants, etc?

This sounds like some kind of parasites are involved. I'm doing some research now and will get back to you. :)

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Ms. Raven, can you please confirm that the "poppy seed" are not on the fish but seeps out from one protrusion and then sink to the bottom? How many have you observed? A few, dozens, hundreds?

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No, not lymphocystis. That will cause the cells to swell and from tumor like growth and they are attached to the fish body, in white or pinkish colour. Not poppy seed like black things.

Fungal spore is a possibility but I'm not sure. My gut feeling keep saying some kind of larvae or cyst but I've looked at dozens of articles and just can't find one that is perfect match. :(

P.S. Annette, we will have to charge you rent of display space! Your sig is HUGE! :D

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Guest Mrs. Raven

Greetings...

Snce this is such a mystery, I will make every attempt to get a photograph...

Poppyseeds are approximately 1/4th the width of a scale.

Made a 50-60% water change this morning.

Added StressCoat and Salt to 0.3%, carbon to undergravel filter tubes (2) and Whisper. Used new filter fiber material.

She's continuing to eat well.

More active than yesterday, but still appears inactive in comparison to her mates.

Observing in an outer shell of a floating breeding shelter w/slots for water change.

I have bacteria starter. When would be a good time to add to tank?

Water numbers were quite good before going to bed last night w 0 nitrites and barely registering. Will test after tank has run a few hours. Very happy to get the tip about an treatment for ammonia which allows continued testing. Thank you.

So enjoying feeling as if I'm not out there on my own. Will poke around as to full membership, but if anyone wants to make it easy, let me know the poop...(pun intended).

Mrs. Raven

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Mrs Raven I will let Captk and Annette continue helping with your fish issue, just wanted to let you know that full membership is obtained by posting. (it is an easy way to make sure people are for real about being here and not just fly by night).

Without this limit people can just stop by and post pictures of not so nice stuff.

Glad to have you aboard!!!

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Ms. Raven, can you please confirm that the "poppy seed" are not on the fish but seeps out from one protrusion and then sink to the bottom? How many have you observed? A few, dozens, hundreds?

386753[/snapback]

Mrs. Raven, could you please answer these questions. Need more info. :) If you have any problem posting a pic, just email them to me at koko@edutain.com.au and I'll sort them out for you. :)

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Guest Mrs. Raven

Dear Goldfish Friends,

These little things, and they are very small, are coming out from under a scale just as a fingernail might grow out from under your cuticle. They do not seem to be falling off up to this point. I have only been able to get one great look at it, but can tell they are still there. They are on the fish, under one scale and on top of the next layer when going from front to back. They exist in very low numbers...less than 15.

Koko had agreed to post a photograph for me. Once it is up, I shall post remarks as it is not extraordinarily clear. I either need to get a macro lens or a serious Sherlock Holmes magnifying glass in order to get a really good view.

She does not seem to be in deteriorating condition. The ulcer is not worse, nor much better, today. She's eating well but not especially active.

All in all, I think we may be past any emergency room or trauma center status. Things are no worse from last Saturday. I'd say she's in ICU...requiring close observation... Everybody gets to be under observation every day!

Much appreciate all the interest and concern. It really, really helps...

Fondly,

Mrs. Raven

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Hi Mrs. Raven,

Here is the picture you send to me. Please comment on it as it is quite small and the details are not immediately obvious. In fact, if you have a larger pic (in terms of dimensions) it will really help.

post-4742-1125560194_thumb.jpg

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One more question, if I may. :) With all the focus on the "poppy seeds" I forgot about the ulcer. Can you describe that in more details for me please? How big is it and is anything growing from it? It is white in the middle and ringed in red, raised tissues?

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Guest Mrs. Raven

Thanks for all the help...

I woke to find her having taken a turn for the worse overnight. She had rolled over onto her side and stopped eating anything. She went from righting herself to leaning on the side of the tank to say upright. By late this evening, she was just on her side and not making any attempt to stay upright or fix herself along the side.

At the urging of my spouse, I put her down. She had been wasting and had lost a great deal of weight. It seemed as if I was so focused on her skin issues, I had failed to notice her size.

This is the first loss I've had and as I said, I'm new to all this goldfish stuff. I'm really not sure about what happened. I need to study up on illnesses and diseases for the future. I'll get around and read the past postings on the site and take in as much as I can to know as much as possible. I trust, there will be other concerns in my future.

I'm really a dog person with goldfish, so I'm a wee bit gutted. Her tank mates will be good company though I will miss her.

Sadly,

Mrs. Raven

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I'm so sorry about your lose. :( I'm sure you will do fine in the future. This hobby can be trying at times but it is never unrewarding. Please stay in touch and good luck! :)

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Mrs Raven, I am very sorry to hear of your fish didn't make it. It's a tough decision to put a fish down.

I had previously discussed a possible diagnosis with Captk who didn't think it quite hit the mark, but as you now mention emancipation I think it is worth noting as a possible cause of your fish's demise.

Ichthyosporidiosis: large 10-250 micron spores which may germinate to form large hyphae. Clinically the fish are emancipated with small round, occasionally ulcerated, black granulomas in the skin. Scolios is occasinally observed. Microscopically the lesion consist of granulomas with encysted large PAS-postivite spores.

I was unable to find any reference to treatment or prognosis for a fish with this condition. It is not something I have ever come across before. Unfortunately, I could not find any photos of this condition either.

There are a multitude of weird and obscure conditions that can infect our fish, sometimes it takes a veterinary specialist to identify and treat them. Once again, sorry for your loss. :(

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Mrs Raven, sorry to hear you had to put your fish down, it's hard but sometimes its the only humane thing to do. :(

Hi Annette,

Was very interested in your description of Ichthyosporidiosis, just wanting to make sure I understand right, did you mean emaciated when you typed emancipated? Being freed is not a symptom, I got confused, but then realieed what you might mean, is wasted what you meant?...

Sorry am a little confused. Sounds like a horrible disease, I've never heard of it before/seen it in goldfish. I hope none of my babies ever get it.

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