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Please Help Goldie And Bert


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PICT0388.jpgOk, so I have noticed big lumps on both Goldie and Bert .. Bert has two, one either side of his body and Goldie has one. Neither fish seem bothered by these lumps. They are just acting normal! One of Bert's seemed to, I dont know ...I dont know if it burst, but it had white stuff come out of it, then it must've come off in the water and it's healed up but still these lumps ... when they swim you can see them, they look misshapen.

I've looked at the pics in the gallery and they dont look like any of these. I've tried to get pics, but both fish are too fast and the pics are coming out blurry and look all cloudy and grainy ...so I dont know how helpful these would be. I'll still attach them if possible though.

I hope someone can help us or advise :( We're really worried.

ammonia 0

PH 6.8

KH between 3 and 6

GH 14

nitrite 0

nitrate between 25 / 50

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Oh dear!

As they came out of nowhere then i will have to say that it looks like a bacterial infection.

You need to do lots of water changes to try and bring the bacterial count down and treat the fish with salt to help with the boils as they burst.

Best to do a salt bath for all the fish, so get some fresh temperature matched water of around a gallon and salt to 2% and leave them in it for 10 minutes. Do this every day.

As the fish are growing the tank is becoming too small for them as you need to keep doing bigger and more water changes for them.

Are you only doing a water change once a week?

Get some meds for internal disease to help kill off bacteria in the tank.

Do the spots/boils have any redness to them, such as a red centre or a red ring?

Getting extra filtration will help too.

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I'm with sandy - salt dips may do the world of good.

If you want to make it easier on the salt supplies then you can do 1/2 gallon tub and add 10teaspoons - that takes you to 2% :)

Are you able to get any medicated food?

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About a 1/3 water changed regular (WK)

have been changing the filter sponges too.

Goldies lump now has the white stuff too. I haven't noticed any red in or round the spots.

I cant get anything for them today as the petshops/ LFS would be closed now with it being bank holiday.

I have a big bucket that I use for water changes, not sure how much it holds ... I will have to try and work it out.

I am VERY relieved that it's something treatable, as Tom was worried they would die. I am seriously considering now, once we get them better, asking our friend with the pond if he will take them. I know Tom will be upset, but i cant bare them to get ill like this.

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I think you may need to do the bucket to bucket method but with so many fish it may be too stressful in a small bucket.

The bucket to bucket would work well because you are keeping them away from the bacteria each day by moving them to clean fresh water.

If you could get 2 really big containers holding around 15 gallons each then you could treat them that way.

As that doesnt seem likely then doing lots of water changes of 50% each day is all i can think of to help.

The two bacteria usually responsible are columnaris and aeromonas but both have a red area either in the centre or around the edge.

You will need to get some medicated food for them. Ive had a look and i have enough for maybe a week for all your fish if fed sparingly as they only need a couple of pellets each, and i suggest pleading in the wanted forum for someone to send you quite a bit for all your fish.

PM me your address and i will send what i have. :)

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Oh Sandy, thank you so much ...but already things are changing.

They are both hiding in the plants at the back at the bottom.. I tried feeding but they wont come out, infact Jenson is the only one out.

They dont look good. Cant see if Bill is infected as he wont come out either.

I have been looking through and saw the post of Becky that Toothless was helping on and the pic she posted is just how our fish look! And it was terminal. All her fish died. It is under .... PIMPLES, CYSTS, ABCESSES.

She had to take everything out of the tank after and bleach everything to kill the germs.

So now I wonder if this is something where they aren't going to get better?

I dont want to prolong any suffering, that doesn't seem right, I would rather stop it right now, Well i say that, but I dont know............ but if there is hope, then I want to do what we can.

Why have they got this? Is it because we are overstocked? We have four fish in a 30 gallon.

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Sorry Kim, I cant find anything that will cure sporozoan cysts.

You can try and limit the damage by taking out jensen and try to save him as best you can. Put him in a tub for now and slowly raise the temperature to help his immune system. Give him fresh water each day and with a bit of luck he might survive.

It really pains me to say this but i think you will have to put the sick fish to sleep and totally disinfect the tank.

This is so awful for you all and my heart really goes out to you. :heart

PM Paul and see what he thinks.

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Sandy, thank you so much for your help :hug , I just need to find out what I did to cause this so I dont ever have it happen again. I feel awful for these poor innocent fish. I am crying so much (baby I know) and poor Tom!!! :cry1

I will try hard to save Jenson, he is so special to Tom.

I cant bare to watch the others suffer. I guess I will try and get hold of this clove oil, and make myself do it! :crp

Bill looks like he is getting it, I can see a mark, but cant get close enough to get a good look at him, Jenson so far is fine and acting normally.

Sandy do you know what I did to cause this?

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I'm still going to look, it could well be the aeromonas or columnaris to blame. Unfortunately we dont have the treatments available to get rid of it in this country.

There is no blame here, you looked after them the best you could and cant really ask for more than that.

Is the tank heated and if so what temperature is it at?

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I dont know what to say Kim, I'm finding this really upsetting as well as i helped Tom from the start with his fish.

It may have come from the tap water, who knows, or a bacterial imbalance somewhere and the bad bacteria took hold.

These things happen Kim and ive lost a lot of my fish to bacterial diseases and it was hard at the time. I think i lost mine because the filter wasnt strong enough for the waste and i wasnt doing enough water changes. I beat myself up for a long time thinking that i had killed them.

Its something we learn from I guess, but is really painfull to deal with.

Continue with the water changes and try and get jensen into clean fresh water.

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Thanks Sandy, I know this will seem a bit strange to say, but you were with us at the beginning and I'm kinda pleased you are with us at the end too.

It would be awful to do this alone.

I cant see anything on Bill yet, just a mark... whether it's this or not I dont know, so I am unsure if to put him with Jenson or leave him with Goldie and Bert :(

I'm also unsure if to 'help' Goldie and Bert or let things take their natural course, as I keep hoping that this thing will clear up, even though I know it's not going to, well, it seems it wont.

It's a hard decision to make.

I will PM Paul too.

Thanks for everything Sandy

Oh, we dont use a heater in the tank.

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I'm hoping Paul might have something for you to try. I went to ebay looking to see if there was any maracyn but there isnt. Its all in America and it woldnt get here on time.

The offer of the medigold is still there and you could give it to jensen.

If it was a columnaris infection then high heat wouldnt help but i dont know if adding heat will help an aeromonas infection.

If it turns out to be sporozoan then theres no hope.

The only med we have in this country is interpets anti internal med but it doesnt say whats in it but treats the aeromonas bacteria, but in the tank and not the fish.

Maybe see if theres a fish vet near you then maybe they can give you something.

Sorry, i feel like i'm clutching at straws here.

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They all came out to be fed tonight.

Goldies lump is big, and I noticed too, all fins and tail looking ragged and has times of going all crazy and freaked out for a bit.

Bert has no white stuff now, just the lumps.

Bill has no lumps but a mark in the same shape as Goldie and Bert's, so I cant make my mind up if this is the start of it developing.

Jenson still has no marks or lumps, but he acts a bit weird, he seems shake his head around ... I cant describe it very well, but it makes me think of a Dog with something chewy in it's mouth????

All of them seem to have a time of going all strange, almost like throwing themselves into a spasm and then going calm again.

:(

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Wonder then if maybe you have a parasite of some kind.

Shaking the head and jumping around the tank could be that. I suppose it couldnt hurt to try the salt.

Add 1 level teaspoon per gallon and again 12 hours later and the same again 12 hours later to give a .3% solution to see if that helps. You will need to leave it for a couple of weeks at least at that level. Any water changes you do must have the salt added in and dont add salt if its purely for evaporation.

I really have got my fingers crossed that the salt will work for you.

I'm really stumped as to what this is Kim and hope Paul can help more.

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Sandy, I just dont know what's going on.

Tom is in denial I think as he keeps saying, they've always done this or that ... He is finding this so hard.

I haven't heard from Paul yet.

I am a bit thick where this salting is concerned, .... can I recheck?

We have a 30 gallon tank, so if I am adding 1 level teaspoon per gallon, that means 30 teaspoons now and then again in 12 hours, then again in another 12 hours yeah?

Then I need to work out how much water I take out on the water changes and put exactly that amount of teaspoons in again? and do I do daily water changes?

Like big amounts? Or is it better only weekly while salting?

Thanks for all your help in this Sandy.

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Before you salt do a 50% water change then yes add that amount three times.

I would do 20% each day after you have fully dosed to make sure theres no build up of bacteria. So taking out 6 gallons of water you would add 18 level teaspoons of the salt back in.

Remember as well to take out all your live plants as they wont survive that long with salt.

Maybe Paul cant come on because of the storm. Ive noticed captk around a lot, maybe ask him to check this over for you as hes better than me at diagnosing.

I'm really sorry Tom is taking this so hard it must be awful for all of you. You can only do your best Kim. :heart

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There is no known "cure" for sporozoans infecting fish. Especially once it manifests itself through the skin. however, some treatments have helped to put it into "remission" for extended periods of time.

There sounds to me like there is definitely a parasite, in this tank. The sporozoan cycsts are probably not linked though. Argh, this is bad. :crp

Well, as I PM'ed you earlier, Successful treatments for this have included Raising heat to 80-84F, maracyn 1 and 2, feed Metronidazole or Metro-meds, or Jungles Anti-parasite Food. But, since parasites are evident, heat is out of the question until they are dessimated. I would look into EVERY parasite med you have available to you. Post these products here if you decide to give it a go. We can help you sort through them. More than likely, a formalin/malachite green combo is the best you will find.

Another member here, about a year or more ago, had a little bit of success with bucket to bucket method. But, in the end, he was only prolonging the symptoms. Maybe some other additions to his treatment would have been helpful. Such as the regime I noted above. :idont

Sorry, wish there were more I could add......

Paul

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Thanks Paul, and thanks for the PM too. Both Tom and I appreciate you and Sandy helping us.

I have noticed tonight that Goldie seems to be spending alot of time at the top of the tank, grazing along the surface, and yet I've recently put in a bubble wall to give them even more air and movement.

OH, this is so hard. I dont know what to do for the best. Reading your post it seems there isn't alot of hope of any real cure, just a prolonging of the enevitable, and is that a fair thing to do? I dont know :cry1

Right now, I just have no answers. :(

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Well, I know its going to be tough, But I think that if you cannot get some sort of good antibiotic, metronidazole, and get the parasites under control, very soon, things arent looking very good for prognosis. Sadly, euthanasia is a real possibility here. The trick is to try a few things first. Get the best stuff you can and do the best you can. it will become clear, very soon, if its going to need to be done......... :crp

Do you, or do you know of anyone, that has some leftover prescription antibiotic sitting in the medicine chest? If so, list the names of them here and I might see one that can be used.

What about Metronidazole? I have a loooong list of synonyms you could research locally. If they contain one of thee names, and only one of these names, it will be 100% safe, we just need the milligrams per pill/dose:

metronidazole, acromona, anagiardil, arilin, deflamon, efloran, elyzol, entizol, flagesol, flagil, flagyl, fossyol, gineflavir, klio, medazol, metro gel, metrogyl, metron, protostat, orvagil, trichazol, vagilen, vagimid, zadstat

I hope this helps some. :heart

PAul

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I am so sorry Kim. When I saw the picture of your fish my heart sunk. It does look exactly like Andy did not so long ago. There is good news and bad news. The good news is he is still with me and swimming around like nothing is wrong. The bad news is his side has been leaking the white stuff (the lumps have completely disappeared) and now it is both sides and he looks pretty ragged.

I have three fish in the "hospice" tank with this internal cystic parasite and two left in the main tank that have shown no symptoms. Two fish died, very quickly. These three act like nothing is going on, but they don't look so good.

I haven't purchased the clove oil yet. I know I am going to have to do it sometime. Gomer, the latest to be brought up to the hospice, has been "pecking" on Andy's side.

Don't lose hope. Just keep them in clean water and medicate them with whatever you have available. :hug

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I am sorry to hear your news! I can only offer support - you are in great hands already. I don't know if it is the same thing or not, but recently GN had a huge bump, on his side, that became white and later erupted with red in it - there's a pic. somwhere - and he managed to get through it! Jsut wanted to offer words of hope - but again, I don't know if it was the same thing (I finally decided on aeromonas as my explanation). He got better with 0.3% salt and lots of clean water! maybe, it was just luck :idont EDIT: He also got his new super filter, then, too and I think that helped. I might add more filters soon! Never enough...

Best wishes! We have fingers and fins crossed! :heart

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I'm so sorry Kim, if Paul's reading of the signs are correct (and it sounds like it to me too), then treatment option is very limited and even more limited for someone in the UK. I can only suggest that you try Protozin which is available in the UK. It won't cure that parasite but it might control the symptoms and buy you a bit more time. Good luck!

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