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Guest xsparkyx

White Spots And Red Veins

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Guest xsparkyx

Hi guys,

Two days ago we noticed that two of our fish had small white spots on body/fins and one fish with spots had long red streaks running through his tail. We quickly seperated the 2 sick fish in a hospital tank (with a new Bio-wheel we bought last night for the hospital tank).

We have one 37 Gal tank with 4 goldfish (2 ranchu-lionhead, 1 pearl scale, and a black moor) that has been running for about 5 months.

I tested the water earlier (before a 25% water change)

Ammonia- 0

Nitrites- 0-0.05 (in between colors)

PH- 7.4

PH (tap) 7.4

We have been feeding the fish mostly Gel food/sinking pellets with some brine shrimp/peas for variety. We usually change about 25%/week water.

We have a Bio-wheel 280 gph

Medications: we treated for ich for past 2 days with little success and put the carbon back in the filter to clear it out.

The 2 fish in the hospital tank have some fraying on their fins and still have small white spots.

All fish now have red streaking veins through their body/fins.

We just started adding salt today (adding .1%/day), and started feeding medi-gold.

Should we do a fungus treatment to treat the fins fraying?

What can cause the red streaking veins besides stress? And what can be done to treat it?

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I am no expert but I'll share what I know.

I will be the first to tell you that you are exceding the 10 gal/fancy fish limit which may be why they started having problems to begin with. As you may have read elsewhere, overcrowded tanks have a couple problems: the tanks get dirty much faster which requires careful attention to water levels, and the lack of physical space creates an environment where the fish are at least a little stressed all of the time. Either of these conditions can make fish more susceptible to illness. Sometimes it is easier to get around these things if the fish are small.

Enough of that now.

From my research red streaks can be a sign of Septicemia which is an internal bacterial infection that causes hemorrhaging in the fish's veins. I understand that Septicemia is usually effects already stressed fish, so this infection would not ever be your only problem. If this is the case continue with the Medi-gold and maybe, since it is effecting all of your fish, use some Maracyn-two which is an anti-biotic that you dissolve in the water.

Also, you may not what to discard the Ich treatment so quickly as it may take more than two days to show improvement (but I don't have experience with Ich). And, you will find in reading about Ich that it effects your entire tank so make sure you treat accordingly.

Take this information as preliminary advise and do some more research. Again, I am not an expert and most of this advise is from my own research, not experience.

Good luck

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Hi there xsparkyx - sorry to hear your fish are doing poorly :(

As for overstocking - you're not too bad so wouldn't worry overly about that now.

Just on the ich and red streaks - were all your fish together? If so, would treat them all at once using salt - to 0.3%. Raise it slowly over 24hrs - 12hrs apart giving you 0.3%. Then once you get to 0.3% - if you can, raise your temp to around 80 which will speed up the ich cycle leaving the salt to kill them. Also, it helps to vacuum your gravel during this to remove any of the tomites/cysts that fall off your fish.

Just on the red fins - the usual causes of this is can be due to a few things:

- Stress - highly probable given the onslaught of ich

- Nitrate poisoning (what are your nitrate levels?)

- Ammonia or Nitrite accumulation - unlikely if your tank has cycled

- Parasitism OR

- Bacterial sepsis (systemic infection)

Hopefully the salt will cure this once the ich has cleared.

Just a couple of questions:

1. Have you introduced any new fish? I'm just wondering if there could be more here than just ich.

2. Any chance of a pic?

Hopefully this helps some and if you have any questions - shoot.

Please post back soon :)

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Guest xsparkyx

Thanks for the advice guys.

There are a couple other factors not mentioned in the first post...I wasn't sure what was relevant and didn't want the post to be 10 pages and confusing.

We did have one fairly new addition to the tank added about a month ago, a tiny pearlscale who was taken out at the first sign of trouble. The black moor is also very small...so we thought that we might be minimally overstocking, but we gravel vac weekly and change about 25% water and the tests always come back low or 0 for nitrites and ammonia (our test kit didn't have nitrAtes).

Another strange occurence was in our plecos. We had one regular and one rubberlip. The regular pleco had been acting squirrely lately. He was very active, eating pellets with the GF and moving around quite a bit. Last week he started looking a little thinnner and more pale and not very active. Two days ago we found him dead and eaten (the little saveges basically picked him clean).

Could that have lead to increased parasites if he got some kind of infection and then they ate him? The day I discovered the dead pleco and removed him our rubberlip also started acting VERY strange...he seemed highly agitated and started around swimming very quickly and erraticly (he used to be a very docile fish that barely moved at night let alone ACTUALLY moving in the day). Then he sat in one pace with his fins twitching quickly and he attacked one of our slow lionhead fish. We pulled him out after the second time he attack and sucked onto the GF. He is currently very passive in the smaller of the 2 hospital tanks with the tiny pearlscale.

In the process of setting up 2 hospital tanks (a trash can for the tiny pearl scale <Tulip>) and the 10 gal tank for the black moor <Whitey> and the medium size pearlscale <Fluffy> we have changed at least 25% (this weekend during the ich treatments) twice from the main tank's water (with the two lion head ranchu <Gregory and Cranberry>).

The main tank fish and the 10 gal hospital fish seem to be slowly worsening despite the water changes (treated of course) so I am inclined to think its not a water condition.

About the Ich...we stopped treatment becasue they didn't seem to improve at all after 48 hours. Since their fins are starting to fray and they still have spots, maybe it was not ich at all, but rather a fungus or infection that was getting worse with no filtration (removing the carbon while the ich treatment was in)

The Septicemia is what I'm really worried about if that is truly what they have, we ordered some maracyn-2 and it should be here in a couple days.

I have pics, but I don't know how to post them to a URL to put a link in.

Thanks again for all the help, and I'll post back tomorrow.

Edited by xsparkyx

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Check the breathing of all the fish please. Increase the oxygen if you can. Start 20%-25% water changes every 2 days (except during treatment of course). You are mentioning a lot of symptoms my fishies had and they kept dying. Believe it or not, I had an autospy done (call me crazy, but I even took the live fish for a check up!) I was told there was flukes real bad and there was a parasite attacking the main bloodstream. The parasite was affecting the appetite, and making them become like a skeleton. Try see if you can get them to eat some brine shrimp or peas. I would say shrimp first, because of how smaller the bites are. I think Prazi would be good to treat them with. Ask Paul for sure!

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:unsure: I myself was wondering if it even was Ick.....I was thinking more of the white spots that start appearing from fin/tail rot,etc...Ick looks like grains of salt/sand sprinkled on your fish.Was that what it looked like? What meds did you treat with?Sometimes with Pleco's,you have to be careful.They are not able to handle all meds. I'm wondering if that had something to do with your Pleco dying,and the other one acting weird. I have also noticed that you have a filter of 280gph.For a tank your size with overstocking(inclluding Pleco's), you should have AT LEAST 10 x's filtration of the size of your tank-which would be 370gph. You may want to look into adding a second Filter onto it. Goldfish are extremely dirty,and when you have more than the recommended amount,it's important that you have the Filter system to back it up,along with airstones,etc. for extra aeration. :) A NitrAte kit is also a MUST have kit. Nitrates are safe as long as they're under 40ppms-better/safer under 20,and as they start getting higher in amounts,can & will create problems. You did say that you had Nitrites of 0-0.05-although some people may think that's low,anything over 0 in an established cycled tank is too much,and sick/low immune fish could have problems occur from this. Poor water quality will cause red streaks/fin/tail rot,white spots.

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Guest xsparkyx

The white spots look more like little pin points if that helps, I doubt its ich anymore.

The Pleco died before any meds were administered to the tank, I was trying to give extra background info in case there was something improtant that I didn't mention in the first post. The regular pleco died the morning we started the meds and the rubberlip started acting strange about that time so he was in a quarentine tank when the medicine was in the main tank.

We now have an additional bio-wheel hat we can put on the main tank once the sickness has run its course to get an extra 100 gph (280+100 should get us up there).

Also, the reading I gave above was taken after 48 hours without the carbon in the filter (while the ich medicine was in). Would that cause the reading to be higher than normal if there was no filtration for that time.

We also have a bubbler in the main tank that I forgot to mention earlier.

I'll get a NitrAte test kit and report back that reading.

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Guest xsparkyx

I bought the nitrAte test kit and Maracyn-2.

The Maracyn is in and hopefully their symptoms will start to subside soon.

Nitrate test came back between 10-20 closer to the 10.

The fish have a decresed appetite, but most are still eating (the black moor is barely eating anything). I have been slowly raising the salt concentration and its up to .2% and should get that to .3% tonight.

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Hopefully with the salt and meds, you'll see some improvement.

Please keep us posted :)

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I hope your fish will be ok!!

You are in good hands here :)

Can you post pics this helps alot.

I sure hope its not septacemia ( see the Fred thread) its hard to treat but it can be done!

Where do you live?

I only ask that as it will give members here that are trying to help you an idea of what meds are available.

Best of luck!

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Guest xsparkyx

Hi guys,

Thanks for asll the words of encouragement.

Today we noticed a great deal of improvement. All sick fishies have perked up quite a bit. Fluffy and Gregory (ranchus) are both more active and noticibly less red veins and back to normal color. Fluffy (medium pearl scale) had ragged fins, bloody tail and spotty fins...now spots fading (closest to body as the maracyn-2 is absorped through skin), he still has spots on the middle-end of his fins, but more perky and looking much better (he was the worst looking).

Whitey <the black moor- only fish I picked...my GF picked rest> was sluggish, spotty and wasn't eating. Now he is almost spot free, his fins aren't clamped and he is much more active.

I live near St. Louis, MO and we have a pretty decent selection of the 'nooppee' pet stores (vvvv, mmm).

I think now I should just keep everything as it is, feeding the medi-gold and the maracyn-2.

I took a bunch of pics, I just don't know how to post them. If anyone can help me put them up I would be happy to.

Thanks again guys and gals!!!!! :D

Everything looking up and I'll keep you posted.

-Sparky

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Guest xsparkyx

Everyone doing well and appetites are up.

figured out how to get pics

This is a healthy Fluffy

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a161/xzs...zx/fa554484.jpg

Gregory and Cranberry sick (Gregory has more white/orange)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a161/xzs...yzx/FISH065.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a161/xzs...zx/1f3e62d7.jpg

Sick Fluffy and Whitey (Black Moor)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a161/xzs...yzx/FISH072.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a161/xzs...yzx/FISH037.jpg

Healthy Fluffy and Gregory (my favorite pic just silly)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a161/xzs...yzx/FISH056.jpg

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Your fish are quite adorable! :heart I'm glad that the treatmen seems to be helping.Continue to keep an eye on your Params though.Water has to be pretty pristene in order for Meds to do their thing! Good Luck! :)

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Hi there :)

Glad you got the pics up.

Yor fish are so beautiful!! I just love fluffy!!! Is she crossed with something else? I noticed a wen or bubble type thing on her head.

I adore pearlscales and hope to get one.

Glad to hear your fish are responding your doing a good job.

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Guest xsparkyx

Thank you guys, you are too kind :D

It is a regular pearlscale I think. Some have goo on their heads , Koko explains it here and shows some good pictures.

http://www.kokosgoldfish.com/Pearlscale.html

I'll keep you posted if anything major changes, but everyone is a little more perky tonight and eating much better.

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Glad to hear they are perking up :) Salt is a great factor with fish, and helps aid their health and promote healing and wellness. I still yet have to figure out why, but according to my fish specialist that is what happens with salt. Ratio is 1tsp salt per gallon of water for 3 days. If any water changes, replace the salt with how many gallans ya took out.

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Oh your fish are little beauties :D

I hope they continue to improve each day :)

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Guest xsparkyx

Isn't the salt 1 TABLEspoon/gallon?

I hope so or my fish are gonna be mad at me.

Does Koko have that in FAQ or pinned somewhere? That seems like a very common question.

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For a 0.1% ratio it is 1 TEAspoon salt per Gal

To achieve a 0.3% ratio you add above, then repeat in 12 hours, then repeat in 12 hours again.

This way it is done in 3 stages. Dont dump the whole lot in at once.

Also disolve the salt in tank water first and add it slowly so it does not get "dumped" on the fish.

Hope that helps!

Edit to add: To help clarify where you got the 1 TABLEspoon per gallon:

3TEAspoons = 1 TABLEspoon so therefor that is the ratio for 0.3%

This is probably what confused you as it does many. I personally dont like to use that measurement incase someone in haste dumps the whole lot in at once. It must be done in stages so the fish can assimilate to it. :)

here is the pinned thread you mentioned: http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...?showtopic=8382

Edited by LuvMuhFred

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Guest xsparkyx

Yes, LMF thats what I meant.

I just do Tablespoon*gal/3 to split it up

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Guest xsparkyx

Hey Guys and Gals,

Just wanted to give everyone a quick update. Whitey (black Moor) seemed to make a full recovery and was returned home today to the main tank. I was surprised by this, becasue when we started the treatment, I thought he was too far gone and barely eating, but was the first one cured!

Fluffy (Medium pearlscale) is much better, no spots, but still has a bit of red veins/splotches in the end of his tail. We are probably going to treat him a second time to be sure.

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Guest xsparkyx

Hey Guys and Gals,

We treated Fluffy a second time and she still has a couple faint red veins in her tail and still has a few spots on her crown (head goo). She has been in quarantine for about 3 weeks+ and we want to get her back in, but aren't sure if this is normal or if she is still at risk.

We also need the hospital tank free to get some new plecos (we have none for about a month after the sickness).

Should we treat a thrid time with Maracyn-2? Or maybe just keep her in isolation?

Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks,

Sparky

Edited by xsparkyx

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Hi Sparky, its wonderful to hear that your fish are doing so well after all they have been through! Are you still feeding the medicated food, btw?

I would give it a 3. round with the Maracyn2 in her tank, and see how that is doing on her. Some very stubborn red veins might go away with time, some fish are just having them. Its also color dependant - the more white a fish has, the more the streaks are visible.

As for the plecos, if they are common ones, or chinese algae eaters as well, I wouldn't put them in with the goldfish, even after quarantine. They can do quite a number on the goldfish, eating off their slime coat and harming them physically. Take a little stroll through the "compatible fish" section for any info on what pleco does well with goldfish.... :)

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Guest xsparkyx

At your suggestion we treated her with Maracyn-2 a THIRD time when her red streaks started to appear slightly more red. Today is the last day of treatment and her streaks seems faint but still visible (her tail is a translucent white...pics posted on first page she is the orange/white pearlscale).

We finished the medicated food over a week ago.

When we get new plecos we will get rubbernose (we will probably buy a whole tank of them from mmm...need about 5-6)

Is it possible that the faint streaks are permanent (like scars)...or does it mean that we still haven't killed the infection and she is still at risk?

-Sparky

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Guest xsparkyx

Hi guys,

Its been over a month and Fluffy still has her red vein streaks in her tail and some red spots in her crown. Has anone ever had a recurrence of the speticimea if its not totally taken care of?

Should we do a fourth round of treatment? Any help would be appreciated becuase we need our quarantine tank back if she is ok, but I don't want to risk extra stress or contaminating our healthy fish if she has a chance of getting sick again.

Sparky

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