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Not Again! Is This Ich?


Graham

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Look what showed up on GN's tummy! And, please notice the small red dot at the basr of the caudal(?) fin - it looks like a scale is falling off there - very tiny, though. And, he has what looks like a white nodule 3/4 of the way of the spine (?) of the doral fin - it could be the same as the spot on the tummy or more solid (it is not a breeding tubercle, it is a new development).

He has the worst immune system! It's my fault! I'm trying to get this system stable but it takes so much upheaval to do it... I hope GN can survive me...

I'm thinking start with the salt - perhaps Cupramine? Can I use Melafix at the same time as Cupramine? Do I have to shut off his great new filter to do this? I also have Medi-Gold food...

BTW - I am not adding anything - not even salt - until you all get a good looksee.

I know it is not bad yet - that's why I am not in 911 - but I do not want it to be!

Here we go:

~Ammonia Level? 0

~Nitrite Level? 0

~Nitrate level? 0

~Ph Level? 7.6

~Ph Level out of the Tap? 7.6

~If you can what is the chloramines Level from the Tap? >N - using Prime

~What kind of Water additives or conditioners? Prime - double dose

~Tank size(How many Gals) and How long has it been running? 20 g / > 2 mo.

~What kind of Filtration? new filter yesterday - Eheim canister / previously, UGF - removed Sunday night - 90% water change due to removal of UGF - no filter mon, tues, wed (powerhead for circ. and air stone).

~How often do you change the water and how much? unitl one month ago, monthly @ 30-40% with UGF filter only - in the last month, weekly @ 40% with only UGF - massive water change on Sunday to remove UGF (rocks also removed - ornaments, lave rock, and plants remain with the good stuff and lots of algae on sides of tank)

~Any Medications add to the tank? No - Not yet

~How many fish in the tank and their size? 1 GF telescope / 4.5 " body

~Add any new fish to the tank? No

~What do you feed your fish? Spirulina, Pro-Gold, shrimp pellets, peas.

~Any unusual findings on the fish? Such as "grains of salt", bloody streaks, frayed fins, fungus? See above - and two black dots, one one each eye, in the orb - pigment dots

~Any unusual behavior? Like staying at the bottom, not eating, ect..? Yes, he has been zooming around the tank like a madman. I thought maybe he was happy that the current was improved in his tank and he had more freedom (it was too strong). But I still kept thinking something just was not right. Today, I noticed the white tubercle and the red dot - tonight I noticed the fuzzy spots on his belly - since yesterday he has been eating well but acting a little funny in a way that is hard to describe - I will try later if it helps. I thought part of it was that he was upset that his rocks had been removed... but now I just think he is getting sick.

DSCF1102.jpg

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He has always had reddish streaks in his tail - they have never gone away. THe white part of his tail has seems abit browish for a while now even though the Ammonia, and all params, seem to be OK.

I thought one eyeball was getting swollen so I online to look - I see something about adding Epsom salt to prevent popeye.... but I am wondering if all this can be tied together?

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Here is a close-up marked - purple circles are areas of illness - red arrows are either dirt on the glass or specks on the fish.... :idont

He started flashing so I added salt (5:00am this morning) to bring water to [0.1%]NaCl - I will adding salt incrementally to bring dose slowly to [0.3%]NaCl over the next few days.

I added Melafix (in Rx dose) but it may not stcik around becasue of the charcoal pad in the new filter. Will continue to add it, nonetheless.

I will try to adjust filtration rate to lower it (make it slower). I will test water in one hour.

aaGNcircledpurple.jpg

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I am sorry to hear you are having problems. The picture (while very good) doesn't really give us the same description you are giving. THe white spots just look normal to me (anyone else??). The red dot "could" be a bacteria infection starting.

However with the flashing I would treat for parasites and only that until you know further. Feeding the medigold would be ok.

I would stop using the Melafix (it isn't going to work anyway with carbon in the filter) and only use the salt. Raise the temp to 80 degrees and it will speed up the parasite life cycle since we believe this to be the cause of the flashing.

Hopefully someone will be along soon to give more of an indication of what the white spots are. It doesn't look like ich to me though.

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Thanks so much, LaurieP! I have learned alot but I am still a newbie so I like to double check to help my learning.

I think the white dots are just dirt on the tank wall.

I wondered if the white fuzz might be indicative of a bacterial infection (mild) becuase form my reading, I don't think it is Ich either. Velvet? Fungus?

The redspot, while not infected, is similar to the one he had recently - I need to discover the cause since it is recurring. I thought I removed the offending materials that caused the first furuncle...OR Trauma could be causing injury that increases stress to allow opportunists in the tank to make him sick - :idont ?

Continue with salt increase, slowly; stop with melafix; feed Medi-Gold - Done!

I will add Prazi into the mix as it cannot hurt - I wondered about parasites since he had flukes before and they have a nasty habit of digging in - maybe removing the UGF stirred up something dormant - and ugly?!

So. Prazi, too. Water checks regularly and an update tonight - Thank you.

PS - Cupramine?

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Hiya. :)

Well, quite honestly, I think graham is just experiencing a reinfestation of parasites. While it sounds sinister, you've caught it early enough to be able to beat them down for good.

These do not look very much like ich to me either. but, it is possible. The red dot is indicative of the point of infectionn for bacteria, wich, was most likely caused by parasites. The missing scales are where he has scraped himself on stuff to remove the offender. This is probably true for the fungus as well.

Okay, yes to 0.3% salt, yes to prazi, a big NO to cupramine. And salt dips will help greatly. you can give 1 salt dip, three days in a row with relative safety. I would start with 1.5% and see how he does.

Just for good measure, can you give us a little recap as to what all Graham has had recently and how he was treated. Sorry, I help a lot of peeps here and its hard to remember all the details.

Relax, Graham is going to be just fine. :hug

Paul

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Also, while he is infected and flashing, you should remove that chunk of lavarock so that he doesnt injur his eyes on it. Telescopes with parasites very often wind up with eye problems from just that........... :unsure:

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Hi - thanks everyone! GN is doing a lot better today! White stuff gone, injury healing well - and I have only added salt (and one dose of Melafix that probably did not do much anyway - it's in the filter)!

Today I am a little under the weather myself - but tomorrow I will take him out a give him a Prazi dip. Should I Prazi the tank, too?

HISTORY: August 2004 - gill and body flukes (saaved by Toothless)

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(OOOps! Here's the rest...)

Today I am a little under the weather myself - but tomorrow I will take him out a give him a Prazi dip. Should I Prazi the tank, too?

HISTORY:

August 2004 - gill and body flukes - tx. Praziquantal

March/April 2005 - evidence of continued internal parasitic infestation - cyclical production of stringy white poop alternating with normal poop - tx. salt, gel food with Metronidazole for one week. Cupramine for mild case of Ich after the oto. died in the tank. Melafix.

July 2005 - furunculosis from inadequate filtration - tx. salt, Melafix, water change, and a new filter.

End of July 2005 - evidence of parasitic and or bacterial infection - tx. salt to 0.3 % in progress, Medi-Gold diet for two weeks (today is day 2) with some spirulina snacks. Saturday - Prazi dip.

Lava rocks - history! Gone.

I am SO glad that the last of that wretched set-up is now gone! No UGF, no choking size gravel, no lava rocks, and no more lack of filtration.

He now has live plants, safe rocks, a canister filter and a better chance to stay healthy. I only wich I could do more becasue I love the little guy so much! :heart

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Graham you got the Parasite King helping you out.

I hope he continues to impove!!

Hey Paul, what is Cupramine? ANd what is it used for? I have not heard of it.

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Laurie,

Cupramine is a copper product. Wether chelated by this means or that, this composition or that, it is still a copper product. According to Rick Hess, copper is best left for marine aquariums with parasitic invasions.

But, in Fancy Goldfish, Ricks book, He states very clearly that out of all of the available copper based meds, Cupramine was his suggestion. But, to use copper correctly in a freshwater environment, a copper test kit is needed to control the ppm's very strictly. This is why he suggest that freshwater fish keepers steer clear of copper. Also according to Rick, there are better and more effective treatments available for any parasite.

Since I very highly rspect Rick and his knowledge, I make the same suggestions for copper. After all, He DID write our goldfish bibles along with erik Johnson.... ;)

Since prazi is easily used in the aquarioum, I would treat him IN the tank. Double or even triple dose it if you like. But, Acording to Graham feeling better even after one day in salt. I think your problems are ciliated, not a worm. Most likely costia, chilodonella, or trichodina. Either way, the prazi wont hurt a thing. Instead of prazi dips. Stick with salt dips since salt seems to be doing so well anyway.

Good luck and post back soon!

Paul

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Thank you for that info. on Cupramine - I am a big fan of Rick, too - so, if he says hold off on Cupramine in goldies, I will! GN was treated with it before but I had no idea that the water level of copper should be trakced... THis fish has survived a lot!

OK - He is looking good - not flashing proper but still doing that weird twitch/wiggle thing that looks like he has areally bad itch! (BUt not so often).

He is eating his Medi-GOld. I have to trick him in to turning the light, but it has to be on at this point becasue I need to grow the good stuff! I have been leaving it off so it would not stress him. If I turn it on right after I feed him, he doesn't care but he gets really dramatic any other time I put it on.

Does photsensitivity ring any bells as far as diease? He did this once before when he was sick...

I out a bowl of Eco-Complete substrate in the tank to see if it would help boost the cycle, especially for the filter. We'll see! I had frozen it so maybe anything that was alive inthe water didn't survive? :idont

OK - water params - finally seeing some changes - he had a 90% water change last week (Sunday) - all week everything was at 0, with a stable pH of 7.6.

All I have added is salt.

It's looking a tad bit cloudy in there - not the water itself but the gunk on the sides so I think we may be getting a bloom - good.

Nitrate - 0 ppm range still but getting a richer color getting closer to next range level- will do 20% water change tom.

Nitrite - 0.25 ppm

Ammonia - 0.25 ppm

pH - went down a bit to 7.4

So, does this sound good? I do not know what the unsafe params are on the Freshwater kit. But, I beloieve these readings are still in range.

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Yep, your tank sound sto be right on schedule with the process you used to convert to the new tank/filter etc. :)

Hopefully it is only the params making Graham twitchy.

As for photosensitivity during times of stress. Yes, some goldies seem more jumpy than others. There are ways to work around this though. You can turn on the lights in the room that he is in before you turn the lights on in his tank. Another thing to do would be to get a timer and set it so that the lights come on the same exact time everyday. Routines become ingrained in them and they soon learn to expect them.

I DO like your routine of feeding him a bit before flipping the switch. Good buffer there! :D

Keep us posted.

Paul

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Thanks for the heads up on that med Paul, I too have tremendous faith in Rick, Doc Johnson and of course you! ;) Now don't go getting a big head there is Koko, Andrea, Daryl, Devs...........and my gosh the list goes on and on but seriously I thank you for spreading your wisdom.

Graham glad to hear he is doing better, keep it up.

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