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Guys What Are Your Thoughts On This?


puggirl

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  • Regular Member

Sandy,

That was quite interseting I only looked at the first page, but I wanted to post quick and then I was going to look at the rest of it.

Well seems to me that some people out there get a thrill off being cruel, Why in gods name would you do you that to a fish? I find the head growth one disturbing enough to make me ill!!! :madrant

Where did you find this site? And who are the breeders doing this sort of thing?

I guess in my opnion they should be stopped but how would be the question. I find the page intresting and strangely disturbing.....

:cry

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  • Regular Member

It is interesting how those fish she was showing, you can probably buy in any store maybe exept one or two. The first one was sad, I dont think it was on purpose, a lionhead gone wrong, I think. Bubble eye, elestials moors. The Bubble eye and moor are such common fish! it was hard for me to think of them as mutated. The last one is downright awful. It makes me angry!!!!! She brought up many points, what humans will do to animals just to make the human happy! Thats man for ya, man sees something, man does not like, man changes it. Sad.

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Guest jimmy_396_jimmy

man i don't like the first ones but i thought the other ones were so regular,

they don't mutate them anymore i think(that girl sure has a lot of fish in one tank!! especially comets/commons)

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Guest Wingfinger

I agree with her close to 100%, I have/would never bought a fancy goldfish in my life. Even the gene that makes them gold isn't dominant from what I know though I could be wrong.

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  • Regular Member

Well, that was interesting. She owns a few fancies herself and the comets are not in a large enough tank, although most of her goldfish care points were good.

The questions seems more, with the fish on the cruelty page, the care from the owners. Wen growth occurs and good owners care for it and have it trimmed when necessary. The last fish looked very fat to me!

To me, a genetic mutation is normal. The exploitation of a genetic mutation is etchically more questionable. Animal and plant husbandry are almost as old as man so it is a difficult argument to make as mankind has long been interfering with evolution. I suppose the real question comes down to where we draw the line in exploiting a naturally occurring mutation and how far it should be taken.

It is a hard question to resolve - but I really respect her opinion, applaud her bravery in stating it clearly, and I certainly admire her championing fish in need!

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  • Regular Member

yes this post was only refering to that page only, and i think the first fish with all that headgrowth look terrible, poor things, and yes i also think that bubble eye is very over weight, i haqve two bubble eyes and they are very active.

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Guest Wingfinger
Wonder what she thinks about having different dog breeds?  Dachshunds, for example, can have back problems... is this cruel too?

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In my opinion yes it is, can't beat a good ol' scruff bag of a mongrel anyway. :D

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  • Regular Member

I'm never too sure on this topic!

My opinion is that as long as the owner takes proper care of the animal (trimming head growth, clean water, no pointy objects or other hazards in the tank) then it is okay. If they are mass bred fancies with fancy eyes can be a problem. These guys have a lot of eye problems. I think as long as the breeder and owner are responsible then all is well :) Everyone's got their own opinions, I just think that this girl was a little bit extreme (especially with not asking permission to post other people's fish pictures for this purpose)

I'd like to add that the last fish, the jikin, would fall under cruel under my category. Pulling scales out hurts and they can be easilly infected. The fish wasn't born that way.

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I really have no comment here other than I take offense to owning "cruel mutations", because in no way do I see them as "mutations" they are in every way beautiful fish. You must know how to take care of them and deal with their differences that's just common sense. I don't see how it's cruel either unless you flat out don't take care of them.

Having, what, six commets in what looks like a 30, maybe 40, gallon tank with what looks like under filtration. Now that is cruel. Before she slams on those breeds she might want to do some more homework on her current fish.

So maybe I do have a comment, just my opinion.

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Guest Chishower

I don't think its cruel. As long as you take care of them, trim problem wens and make sure the bubble eyes cant get damaged then its in no way cruel. That telescope was beautiful.

I don't know enough about Jikins to comment on that.

Mutations happen. As long as it is not harming the fish in any way, like maybe a gill cover missing or no front fins or something like that as a mutation, its fine in my book.

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Well, for one thing, her webpage is Illegal. Breaking all sorts of copyright laws. (you must gain permission BEFORE using pictures) While i wont comment, because she's entitled to her opinions on the fish, I did send her a notice about the copyright.

(i have been paranoid ever since i read a news article about Sunrise, an anime corperation, Suing parents of kids who were making Gundam webpages and using images w/o permission! @_@)

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Guest FreeTheBubbles

Yeah I don't think that girl really thinks before she speaks/writes. I dunno, she just comes across that way lol. But the point she makes about "I know I would hate not being able to see in front of my face" Hello?! The fish has never known anything different! It's eyes have always been like that! Besides, if care is taken when feeing etc visually impaired fish such as moors, telescopes, celestials, and bubble eyes, (hope this doesn't offend anyone) they live perfectly happy lives. Or am I missing something?

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  • Regular Member

Off the top, this girl who started that page is obviously young and needs to learn the to see the trees before the forest. This is just my opinion. Just as she has hers.

It is unrealistic to try to "boycott" fancy goldfish. They are here to stay. Instead, she should have put all her energies into informing people on the correct way to keep each of these examples of fancy goldfish. Celestials, telescopes, bubble eyes, fun bubbles, and ranchus all have very specific needs. If you provide them with these necessities, they live long, happy lives. You know whats ironic, I garuantee you she ran into troubles later on with keeping that many comets in such a small tank and such a small filter. Six comets in a twenty gallon is pushing it.

The goldfish in those "deformed" pictures are not feeling any pain. This is obvious because of the great health they are in. Of course, the first fish on the page, is not a good example of what the breeder of that particular fish was going for. No breeder in their right mind would want their fry to grow up blind from excessive headgrowth. I repeat, this is not the intent of the breeder. In fact, breeders VERY commonly cull fry that exhibit debilitating deformities. A form of " natural selection" at its best. Besides, you can trim excessive headgrowth.

Now, we have done the exact same thing with dogs and cats. We have bred them to our liking. ALL dogs and ALL cats were pulled from the wild and selectively bred until we have come to the point of having over 400 different breeds of dogs. And cats, well, they have their fair share of them as well. Now it is common knowledge that most of these dogs have very specific requirements for each to remain happy and healthy. So, we provide them that and they thrive. Is this cruel? :huh: Whatever your stand is on dogs, the same can be said about fancy goldfish.

I do however see her point about the bubble eyes. Once, and if, the bubbles get too big, it is pretty tough for them to make it about. But, it IS possible to make their life the best it can be.

All in all, it is up to the keeper of ANY animal to take that animals special needs and necessities into consideration. Almost ANY "deformitiy" can be buffered with special care.

And her webpage is indeed illegal. That picture of the telescope is a very well known breeders photograph and I am positive that they would not like their fish being used as a posterboy for boycott. Not too smart on her behalf........

I appreciate everyone keeping this thread nice and orderly. Good job! ;)

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  • Regular Member

Fun bubbles is a brand new breed of goldfish. Some breeder noticed that from time to time, he would see a goldfish that had a bubble of skin form under the mouth of goldfish. So, he took this naturally occuring mutation and ran with it. In the end, he was able to invent these guys:

Fun bubbles and four bubbles goldfish

A REALLY neat addition to the ever expanding amount of breeds we have available.

Paul

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Guest jimmy_396_jimmy

wow those fish look cool with those bubbles under their mouth

also those fish can see forward better!

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  • Regular Member

Fun Bubbles are bubble eyes with a second pair of 'bubbles' near their chin; I remember a post about them awhile ago.

I agree mainly with what people have said previously; they fish are mutated so they have more interesting breeds, but I don't consider it to be cruel, espeacially in the case of the headgrowth as it is the owners fault to trim the wens as they grow larger, and I don't thinks she sould lump all fish with headgrowth into the category of not being able to see, which is making an assumption that they all develop these problems and it is the fault of the breeders.

I've heard different things about telescopes and bubble eyes, because they are more prone to eye disease. But it shouldn't really be a problem if they are taken care of, even though they are more liable to develope those problems or other injuries. I think the analogy of dog breeds vs. goldfish breeds is a good one and makes a point.

As for the jikins, I don't know that much about them but don't beleive that all breeders will rip the scales out as her comment seems to imply.

She has her own opinions, but in mine she is being too general about what breeders do and don't do, or about specific breed charactoristics, for example implying all orandas will become blind.

BTW, I don't think posting a link to a site will get you in trouble, Puggirl.

I'm sorry if I was repetative in my opinions.

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Oh, never mind about the Fun Bubbles; took me awhile to write and post my reply, I guess.

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  • Regular Member

Yep, the Jikin is perhaps the one goldfish that will never make it here in America. I think we as goldfish keepers (not owners) are a little too keen on the painful process it takes to "make" a Jikin. At least, I would like to think so....

Paul

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Guest Maverynthia

I don't really like most of the fancy breeds because from what I remember, all of them except the commons were mutations like the Fun Bubbles that were grown like that. I really just hate the fact that these fish originally weren't meant to be like that but somebody thought they were cool and kept breeding them that way.

It's kinda a bit hypocritical though that people started hating those GloFish that were "Genetically Engineered", but in reality what they did was exploit the fishes own genes as the person of the Fun Bubbles did to create a new looking fish.

I'll stick to fish that can seem to live a normal life without having to take extra "safety precautions".

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