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Celestial In Big Trouble


daryl

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Ammonia zero

Nitrite zero

Nitrate - had been hovering at 40 but down to 5 ish now -after change

pH 7.4

RO + Tap water combo used supplemented with .1% salt.

30 gallon tank - running for over 6 months

Emperor 400

Normal water changes 10 gallons every 5 days.

3 fish - celestials, all about 5 inches in length.

Symptoms: One celestial - my oldest, started swimming somewhat unevenly about 1 1/2 weeks ago. I think this fish is a female, but she has never had any eggs in the 3 years + I have had her. I changed the water an extra time to bring the nitrates down below 5 ppm, and have worked to keep them there.

This did not help. The fish started being quite unstable - swimming upside down and right side up and sideways. I fasted for 3 days and fed peas. This did not help. The fish began looking distinctly bloated on one side - and semi kinked because of the bloat.

The water was then changed three times in succession to remove the .1% salt in the tank and 1/8 teaspoon/5 gallons epsom salts were added to the tank. AFter 3 days, the fish was simply stuck to the filter intake, upside down. She does not eat now.

I did a epsom salt dip yesterday morning to attempt a purge - the fish is dramatically bloated on one side and rather kinked because of the bloat. The dip was 1/2 strength - 70 grams of epsom salt to 2 litres of water instead of 1 litre. Dipped for 5 minutes. The fish was still very active and alert at the end of the dip.

No change.

This morning I decided to put some MediGold down her with a pea, but when I scooped her up in my hand an obvious amount of bright red blood came from her gill. Gills appear to be slightly paler than I would deem normal. The fish is alert and will struggle and swim very actively when disturbed. There are no other signs of any physical injuries or problems on the fish. The other two fish in the tank are healthy and hearty, normal and eating well. Neither has chased or bothered the ill one.

I have FINALLY decided on a microscope, but do not have it yet. :kickbutt:pan (Dumb dumb dumb!), and do not at this time have the microscopes from the vet's office available.

Flukes? Infection? Combination?

I need suggestions and treatment regiments. I really do not want to lose this fish. She is a very unusual, beautiful and special little fish...... one of my favorites. :cry1

I could move her to a 10 gallon iso tank, but I have to assume the other fish in the tank are compromised, also. I am also not positive that the extra filter I have will cycle the tank properly - and poor water is really not what I want. I have limited water supply(drought and RO) - so changing water everyday would mean that another tank or tanks in the house would be short changed on water changes.

So..... :help:

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have you had a feel of the lump to see if its squishy or hard, can it move around? the pale gills are worrying and with the lump it could mean a kidney problem.

hope someone can help you more daryl, got fingers crossed for you both.

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Interesting point Sandy.

Remember Silvery, Daryl? Lump = eggs, bleeding gills = high estrogen levels.

Silvery is very weak and has difficulty swimming and fighting water current, (hence bucket-to-bucket). She will also go off her food for a few days at a time. She has never yet floated upside down or had balance problems. She just sits at the bottom of the tank most of the time and only swims to get her food. She also gets general surface haemorraghing from time to time.

Just another idea to mull over.

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:( Sorry to hear about your fish Daryl.When fish are bleeding through the gills,they say most times it's parasites.However,Bacterial can also do that too.With the lump on the side,it sounds like it could be that.Are any of those fish newer ones that may have introduced gill flukes into the tank?
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There is one newer celestial in the tank - but it was given the standard salt dip, salt concentration, prazi quanantine that normal fish get - a total of 3 weeks qt. I introduced the fish to the tank on......May 14th (had to look it up). They have not had any more than the standard treatment since then.

That would seem to be about the proper timing to see flukes take over, huh? I wish the mail was faster with my microscope. We finally agreed which one to get - I have to share it with my hubby and he wants it to work for micro electronics - the opposite of biology - so it took a lot of shopping.

Should I blast the tank with Prazi? The bloat does not feel squishy or hard - it matches the other fish's stomachs in feel - kinda like raw meat...... firm and moving.

Should I remove all traces of Epsom Salts before using Prazi?

This morning I was only able to get 5 gallons of water. That has to last until I can go to the store for more. The well is dry. The water truck only delivers every 3 days and we are limited in what we can get.......

I will drive to the store for water if I need to, though. This fish is more than worth it. :krazy:

Edit: If it could be bacterial or secondary bacterial, is there a bacterial bath that I can use concurrently with the Prazi? I do not think I can shove enough food into the fish to use MediGold..... :krazy:

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:krazy: Where's Toothy when you need him?? :lol: I am certainly no expert by far.I have lost very little fish to know much about the "How too's".You would think that what you put the newest celestial through when you got him though,would have been enough safety measures,but with flukes,I guess you can never say never. There is an Anti-Bac Bath that Goldfish Connection carries.Heather has used it,but I can't say what it did for her.I guess you can e-mail Rick and ask him his opinion on it though.As for the Epsom salt,Honestly,I'm not sure,I would think that with the Prazi,it would be okay.Prazi is gentle enough ,so it may be worth starting until we can figure out something more here.I'm sorry,I guess I'm really not helping much here.I just care about you and your fish,and want to be there for you. :heart What a time to have Drought Problems! :crp
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WEll, there is a hopeful looking storm approaching - some promise of a little rain perhaps? I hope. It has been over 2 months since our last rain. We have hired a well digging company to dig us a deeper well - to try to reach the next water table, but they are very busy and will not be here until August 15th. (I really wonder what that water might be like!) I have set up the frame from a canvas tent on the driveway, but stretched a tarp instead of the canvas over it with a hole in the middle to direct all water it collects into my buckets. I have garbage cans and buckets and everything I can think of ready to catch water. My goldfish containers are first up. Now all I need is rain!

I have the Bac-Bath from Goldfish Connection. Its main faults is that there is basically no instructions that came with it. It does not say what is in it, how to properly use it, nor does it list any complications or cautions...... I am really leery of using something that I do not know what is in it!

I think I am going to go to the store and get a few bottles of water and change out the tank as best I can and blast it with Prazi.

Perhaps a call to Rick questioning the use of the Bacti-bath at the same time would be a good idea.....

Thanks, Devs!!!!

(I need a lot of hand holding right now - I am so worried.....)

Cross your fingers for rain!

Edit: OH MY! Rain is possible. Unfortunately, the winds are amazing and I think I need to head to the basement with the cats!!!! I only hope that we get some water, for having this type of storm and STILL getting no water from it is simply not fair! Bye - I am off to the basement!

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:o Wow,Hard to believe that Bac-Bath doesn't have anything to go with/by...I've been wanting to purchase that myself to have on hand. I sure wish I could send you some of these daily thunderstorms that we've been getting! Finger's toes,legs,arm,eyes,and anything else I can cross,is CROSSED!!! :heart:krazy:
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Sorry to hear you are having problems again. I can't offer anything other than what the others have given.

While I hope you get rain, I also hope no bad damaging storm.

The only thing I would mention though is not to focus on only one problem causing the fish's distress you could have multiple things happening.

:hug

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The "Rain" is over. We actually got some H2O from the sky!!!! :bounce

Every bucket, can, pot and pan I can find has been filled. It is dirty looking water, so I think I need to let it settle, then filter it through a very fine filter material. Then I will need to address pH and other considerations, but I have water!!!!! I even took a rag soaked in soap and washed the car. I got soaked, but the car is clean for the first time since I can remember! Wow. The wonders of rain. With any luck, they got more north of here and filled our water table.

I have set 10 gallons in the middle of the kitchen floor, so I can see when the worst has settled. I have a few extra bulk filter flosses - I think I will pass it through those a few times and see where I get.....

Thanks, Laurie. I think you are absolutely right - one problem at a time will probably not hack it - I would be running in circles. That may even be why this poor fish is in the fix she is! I called Rick. He thinks that the BactiBath should be just fine to use with PRazi since Prazi is sooooo gentle. I am going to give a big tank change and let the Prazi and BacBath go to work.

Sigh.....I hope it works and I am not tooo late.

Oh, good grief - Bif just went swimming in the tub! One very wet kitten! :rolleyes::blink:

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Anti Bac-Bath seems to contain furan antibiotics - most likely a mixture of several. If this is the case then it will kill the cycle in my filter. It is also necessary for treatment every day, with a 50% water change between day 1 and day 2 and a 75% water change after day 3. Prazi, on the other hand should not be changed out until about 72 hours after addition. If I change out 50% of the water tomorrow, the Prazi will be rendered useless - rather a waste of an expensive medication.

Rick did not mention this, but that is what I see.

I added the Prazi anyway. I plopped 1/2 of my biobase in an iso tank and am running it on ammonia. I hope I can salvage a bit of the beneficial bacteria that way. I have to assume that all my tanks are compromised and cannot take biomedia from any tank. Maybe the bacteria will be starved out in 3 days and the subsequent Prazi treatments will erradicate any flukes in there.

I am thinking that little Milton might have brought something with him. He was isolated from the goldies, but there is always the possiblity of accidental cross contamination. I am careful, but not obsessive. Perhaps obsession would not be such a bad thing, huh? (By the way, I put little Milton down about 3 days ago - he was just not strong enough to treat any further and I judged that he was suffering. He was the tiny little fish left in a cup on my porch).

Sigh..... :cry1

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OH I am sorry to hear about Milton. I did not know he wasn't progressing.

Sounds like you got enough water to do what you need to, and BIF goodness he is still full of it isn't he?? :rofl Have to admire his curiousity.

I hope it goes well with the treatment.

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After some thought, I have been kicking myself for the method of treatment I have selected. I thought I should at least post here and explain what the downsides and remedies to what I have done, in hopes that it may help someone else in the future.

Furan medications kill cycling bacteria. Prazi does not. Prazi has need for a longer dwell time in the tank, the Furans are basically 8 hour baths.

In hindsight, I should have pulled the sick celestial, and put him in an uncycled vat of water with the Furans for 8 hours. I should have treated the 30 gallon tank with Prazi. At the end of 8 hours, the celestial could be returned to the main tank, that medicated tank emptied and prepared for the next day's treatment. This way, I would use the least amount of Prazi, the least amount of water and the least amount of stress for the fish for there would be no loss of cycle.

Unfortunately I did not do it that way. Sigh. I did pull the bio base from the 30 gallon tank and put it into an iso tank with ammonia, but I am still faced with changing out a 30 gallon tank and adding more Prazi now.

Question (I think I know the answer).... Now that I have treated all three fish to an 8 hour Furan bath, (antibiotic) I am assuming I need to continue to treat all three to the full regiment, correct? That being so - I need at least a 30 gallon iso tank for the Furan..... so no water savings, huh? <_<

:pan:kickbutt

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:( I can't blame you for that "Afterthought" Daryl.Between the Pool Party,Worrying about rain/Water/Motorcycle Wrecks/Internet problems,Poor Little Milton,etc...and now about your special little Celestial,Your Brain has alot going on! :krazy: It is a shame that you didn't think of that-sounds like it definately could have been a possible & easier solution.Oh well Hun,you can't dwell on it now-Let it go.(Listen to me,Ms. "Spazz"-telling you to leave it alone) :lol: I know at times like this,you could kick yourself in the :ignore ,but what are ya going to do?,Ya know? Well,I'm a little uncomfortable,but I still have everything crossed--- ;) Keep us posted on her update!
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Well, he is not declining any more, but he/she is still not eating and sitting on the bottom on his/her side.

There is maybe a tiny bit less bloating, but maybe it is just wishful thinking. He is a bit more active.....

I did a 100% change today, a salt dip and back into the Furan+. It recommends 3-7 treatments. This was day 2......

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I hope your little fella is indeed improving.

If only one fish is effected I always treat that fish separately rather than treat the whole tank. It is a shame that your cycle has now been exposed to the furan but nothing that you can't handle I'm sure. Although, I don't understand the rationale for continuting to treating all 3 fish to the Prazi as well.

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The reason for the Prazi in the large tank is that if one fish has flukes in that tank, I have to assume that the others do, also. They may not be showing large populations or complications from them, but I am sure they are there. Flukes are like that. I swear they are everywhere!!!! <_<

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sorry to here about your fish, i have one celestial and i really think she is beautiful even though others dont, but how do you know if your fish have flukes as it sounds quite common.

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It isn't very common over here, thankfully, although isolated cases do occur. Flukes can only be determined by a skin scrape viewed under a microscope but the fish displays general symptoms of parasitical infections.

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If I had to take a guess, I would think that little Milton brought them. I try very hard to keep all the tanks isolated from each other - particularly ones that are in quarantine.....but I am not perfect. In fact I can think of at least two instances where I violated isolation protocol rather badly. So if there was something there, I most likely introduced it from one tank to the other, myself.

To deal with this, I have ordered the large bottle of Prazi and intend to treat every single tank in the house concurrently, again.

Last time I had flukes that was really the only way I found to erradicate them. Otherwise I found myself playing round robin with the tanks and the treatments. Try as I might, there are just too many variables in isolation to control to my satisfaction.

I have successfully (sadly) been able to isolate them with a microscope and scrapings. Unfortunately, experience has taught me that you can scrape and scrape and still miss a population of flukes that is large enough to cause serious problems! I am just paranoid enough, though, to believe that anytime a fish starts acting abnormally in my tanks, flukes come to mind.......

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It seems that everyone who has experienced flukes is just as paranoid as you are, so you're not alone there.

I recall treating all my tanks when I had the fish lice problem. I treated them all for 3mths, the longest life cycle scenario, although the life cycle at my temperatures were more likely 30-60 days. You can never be too sure. ;)

edit: Toothless thinks flukes can never be 100% erradicated, there is always a possibility that they will strike again.

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Actually, Annette. When I made that statement, I had yet to become competent enough with a scope to make that call. Since then, I have discovered that my treatment regime that I came up with was quite enough to handle pretty much any flukes infestation. Rick agreed with me too. He said that no fluke should ever be able to live throgh my regime. Simply because it is a pretty intensive, but safe, treatment. So, it seems that it was actually another culprit that was ating along with the flukes. After the flukes were dessimated, the "other" bugs still had free reign. I have recently come to find that my tanks possibly have a protozoan in them called coleps. This could be why I still see flashing going on from time to time. All in all, I feel pretty confident in my diagnosis at this point. Future investigation will be needed though. I've been thinking of sending a oxygenated sample of my filtergoop to a lab for identification of the bugs in question.

To date, not a single tank of mine has ANY flukes in them whatsoever. And good riddance. I swear, I will never introduce a new fish to any tank of mine without a prophylactic treatment with Prazi (and salt too).

Carol,

Good luck with him. I think your doing as much as humanly possible at this point. Really. The fact that there is no visible decline is a sign that your right on the verge of success. Keep us informed...... :)

Paul

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