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How Much Space


fishermoe14

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yes, the reason why they need so much space is they can get up to 36 inches (3 feet), plus they produce so much waste. You certainly want to have good biofiltration.

Scott

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That would be right. 250 is minimum amount of water. Even with Pond goldies (pond comets, shebunkins,Wakins, Tosamba etc), still messy, most folks will say 50 to 100 for them since they are larger size fish. Even at that, carp are messy, koi more so then goldfish. :D Too much filtration is never enough.......

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Guest LiL sTepHii 143
:D Not to disagree with anyone but 250 gallons per fish? I think that wayyyy to much . My friend has a 90 gallon pond with 13 big beautiful healthy fish. And there still growing. For a 500 gallon I think u can add plenty of fish. ;) U need 250 because they can get up to 30 inches I think it was. But they dont need to and I think 2 koi for 500 gallon is just to little. :exactly Well thats my opion. I dont mean to correct anyone just telling u what I feel. :pond
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That's fine Stephi but your friend is WAY over stocked. You need to realize that we aren't the authors of proper koi keeping we only advocate what has been known to be a safe and human way of keeping them. These fish will grow to at least 2 feet long and can get up to 3 feet long. Can you imagine 13 koi at 2 feet long in 90 gallons? That would be inhuman for the fish as there isn't room to swim plus the fact that the water perameters would be difficult to keep in check. I am no expert on koi keeping, I am only learning.

Here is a crowding formula on koi, this was authored by a koi veteranarian, he is one of the foremost authorities on koi in the United States (he knows what he is talking about).

http://koivet.com/html/articles/articles_d...e=Miscellaneous

Scott

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Guest LiL sTepHii 143

I went on that and saw 10 inches per fish :idont Well I suppose that right if want ur fish to be biggggg . See I just like to see the fish and of course keep them happy but I have a 20 gallon pond .. I dont think im going to get 1 fish.......... I also heard 1 inch PER gallon..... Theres to many things :thud

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One inch per gallon is for tropicals Steph. Carp are entirely different in there needs & requirements.

Your friend is doing what we call skating on thin ice. Some fish will stunt the growth, some continue to grow despite the odds. Sooner or later the ice breaks and then all heck breaks loose.

Just for the record Steph, I'm a Trusted Koivet Mentor (tkm) for Doc Johnson, whom I recently had the pleasure of meeting in person as he taught the wet lab I attended in Portland the first of June.

Fish keeping is not all build a pond and throw fish in.... many factors can lead to death, disease,parasites & stunted growth. Overcrowding is a ticking time bomb waiting to go off. Goldfish are messy, koi are more so.

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Heres a experts opinion on the gl perspective:

You can keep any number of koi in a small pond and not have a problem BUT is it the right way to do things...NO........does it give the fish the room that they need to grow and develop properly. (the odds are that your buddies fish are a bunch of pale stumpy looking fish with the crowded conditions)...does it give them the a buffer if something goes wrong with that filtration/O2 system.

Most people that overstock have no idea of water parameters and don't care if it dies ...so what and crystal clear water doesn't mean a thing...I've seen more fish die in gin clear water than you can imagine

The recommendation of 200 to 250 gallons per fish is one that allows room for error and gives the fish the space to thrive not survive. It also gives you that buffer when there's a power failure and O2 drops like a rock

I can keep Shamu alive in my bathtub...doesn't make it right though. Go with fewer fish and more filtration you' and your fish will be happier for it

A lot of truth to that perspective. Theres a big difference in surviving and thriving....

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Tamianth, I didnt know you were a Koivet mentor! Wow, what an honor! I have been reading Dr. Johnson's info for years and have always respected his information.

I just read a great article on nitrates in the lasted TFH issue and it had some quotes from him. Im sure you know about that, it was just nice to see because in freshwater a lot of people think nitrates dont matter, but it really looks like they do.

As for the 1" per gallon mentioned earlier, yes that is referring to tropical fish but it also is referring to small-bodied tropical fish like neon tetras, not cichlids or big gouramis or things like that.

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:rofl I hope it doesn't come off like bragging, that wasn't my intent at all. Dataguru is a TKM also, Captk is a moderator there! ;)

JS,

I've not read the article, but know the subject. Meeting Doc was kewl, seems like such a down to earth person. Vickie Vaughn was there also. She is friendly and someplace here is a thread of the wet lab, surgery after etc I posted up.

Yup, that tropical rule needs some revisions also methinks. :D

Scott,

thanks for the nice thought... :D

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I figured that since you obviously do know what you are talking about if you have a special title maybe others would listen up closely! We know that those whom are asking questions want answers, it's the right ones that only help. Sometime well meaning koi keepers (like myself) will give info that they are sure is right but might turn out wrong :( someone with a title can clear things up easier for everyone. After all we love our fish. If toes need to be stepped on, in the best interest of the fish, that is what should be done. People are more apt to listen to the one with the title, thus misinformation can be cleared up quicker and easier!

Scott

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You just hit the nail on the head for the most part. Its why they installed TKMS at KV, we had some complete newbie's dishing out advice, misdiagnosing things. Argumentative and sometimes downright nasty. :(

Still, we are not perfect only human and thus we can make a bad call also so we tread carefully and ask many, as I call it, Questions 101..... :rofl seems like 101 questions. Patience, persistence and tact is all a part of the tkms along with our knowledge.

We also know when we are over our heads and call for back up from those who do! Team work can be a awesome thing! :)

Doc sometimes comes in also if we need him! :)

I was very shocked when I found the admins letter asking me to accept the title. I accepted so gracefully...

Fell right off the chair........ :rofl

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The other thing about growing koi, and goldfish, is that the body mass grows proportionally larger than the fish's length. Somehwere in the newest GFSA report is a great drawing on the relation of growing in length and in body mass.

The author followed his shubunkin's growth and made a chart of length in comparison to weight, and thats what he came up with:

A 4 inch fish weighs 25 g, a 8 inch fish weighs 115 g, and a 12 inch fish weighs 560 g.

You see, the length has only tripled, while the weight, and body mass, was more than 20 times than when he was a 4 inch fish. That enormous growth of body mass makes it so much easier to imagine why big fish just can't get away with just a few gallon of water. Now, that body mass gets even worse when it comes to a growing koi...

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wow great info Andrea! Looks like you've been doing your homework. Thanks, that is very interesting and makes a lot of sense. Bonnie Hale used to have (not sure if she still does) a picture of a 4 inch koi next to a 6 inch koi so you could see why the price is so much more. The 6 inch while only being 2 inches longer was HUGE in comparison and it really wasn't just because of the lenght, it's body was so much wider. Now that you pointed out just how much bigger a fish is getting it all makes sense to me, almost though like DUH! It should be obvious? lol

Scott

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Andrea,

I can believe that too! My yamabuki's gained about a inch over winter, but they gained in weight. The new Shui's and Yamabuki's have all added another inch perhaps, but the weight has been more notable, especially on the shui's since I brought them home.

Genetics will effect the growth of course, and of course good food and water quality..... :D

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