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Flukes


Roano

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Nitrites: 0

Nitrates: aprox 7

Ammonia: aprox 0

I currently have two orandas in a cycled 20 gal, and another in a hospital tank, and I think they all may have flukes, although the seperated one hasn't had really any symptomes like the other two. I have a Topfin 20 filter (which doesn't provide the recomended gph) and an 8 inch bubble bar that I added yesterday. I also have a banana plant and water lettuce that I added fairly recently, but I don't think the plants brought in flukes because they were QT for several days and washed with hot water.

I have never seen any of them rub on any plants or equipment, but think they may have been rubbing on the river rocks at the bottom of the tank. One in the 20 yawns, and although the other doesn't, when I go into my room at night, he starts sucking at the surface and does it off and on until a little after I turn off the light. It may be normal behavior, but he seems to not do it in a 'begging sort of way'. (Just thought I'd mention it.) Both are active, mainly at night, and there are no clamped fins. I haven't seen them flash other than when I accidentaly scare them. Their gills are a reddish/pinkish color, but seem to move noramlly and aren't tattered.

I have a microscope that isn't labeled but may be 400X; my mom thinks it is. I haven't taken a scraping yet because I haven't been completely sure about the flukes and didn't think it was powerful enough. I try to do a scrap today and see if I can come up with anything.

I have enough money to get Prazi from Goldfish Connection, but have heard Quick Cure and Pottasium Permanganate works well too. Is one more effeicient, safer or won't crash my cycle than the other two? I'm leaning toward Prazi, since it is specifically designed for flukes.

Thanks for any help.

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Hi Roano - if you think it's flukes then the best cure is Prazi - it doesn't affect your filter at all and is considered the most gentle - also, you can use in conjunction with salt and some other meds.

But before you go down that path - it's hard to see any indication of flukes at this stage.... How are they eating?

The one thing i picked up on was you mentioned the gills were a pinky red - not a blood red? Healthy gills are a dark meaty red in colour and if they go a bit pale - it could be due to gill bacterial or gill flukes.

Would you be able to have another look?

Also - is your ph stable? Have they experienced a swing in ph at all lately?

I'd definitely order some Prazi if you can but in the meantime, why not salt to 0.3%? This helps enormously if your fish has a pathogenic bacteria among many other things.... It may be all you need...

Also, what temp is your tank at?

I'd always suspect flukes (or some other parasite) if the fish are new or have come from an external source... it doesn't sound as though yours have been exposed... :blink:

So please post back soon - it may be something else which is why your ph reading would be a great help :)

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Thanks for replying, Jen.

The gold oranda that yawns, her gills seem a pretty good shade of red; but that could be because of the shadow of her operculum. My white calico as a clear operculum, and the gill sometimes looks a lighter red than the others' gills. I've noticed that after adding the bubble bar, my oranda hasn't yawned as much, so maybe there was just insufficeint oxygen in the tank. Their poop looks normal, except I recently saw my white oranda's have some air bubbles, so I will not feed him for two days then feed him peas. They seem to eat normal, all though after swallowing the soaked flakes they dowork their mouths a bit before eating more, but I think this is normal.

Just did a strip test; lately I've been using liquid tests and have mainly been testing Ammonia, Nitrites, and Nitrates, and only have one 5 in 1 test strip; in the past, my pH has been high but pretty stable, around 7.6 or 7.8 so I haven't tested it since the beginning of last month, which I know, I should have. I know it's high for pH, but didn't want to mess with it and figured a stable pH is better than a more neutal pH that may swing. But when I checked today it looked more like 8:

pH: about 8

Alkalinity: about 240

Hardness: about 250

Nitrite: 0

Nitrate: 10

Temp: about 70 F, 20 C

The reason I think it may be flukes is because they have been swimming to the river rocks at the bottom, brushing them, and then swiming back up, then usually repeating. They seem to do this mostly in the morning, before I feed them. It's mainly my gold oranda. It could be just excitment for the food, but since, I see them most at feeding time, it could just be that I am able to notice her behavior at that time. They take lots of naps during the day, but they seem to be more active at night, so I don't know if it's lethargy or they just think they are nocturnal.

I have just enough money to pay for Prazi.

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They seem to be doing alright, will check on them more tommorow, I just got back on a trip to Seattle... They seem the same though...

"Your Prazi is on the way!"

I'm a little confused, I think your thinking about Kissy's topic in the Emergency section, who had the lionhead with possible flukes?

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The good thing about Prazi is it's very gentle on both fish and humans... :D

So if you can get some, try medicating and see if there's any improvement... In my experience, when fish have flukes, they tend to twitch, flash and rub up against just about anything - this was at a the very initial stage. If I ever noticed any behaviour resembling this again, even slightly, (and I can point the finger at a possible cause) and didn't have a microscope - i'd medicate in a pinch.

Have you got salt in your tank?

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No, but looking back, I saw your suggestion of .3% salt. How much would that be in a 20? I know there is a salt percentage link around here somewhere, and I'll look to find it.

The reason I'm unsure if it's flukes or not is because where I think I have seen them rubbing on the river rocks, and yawning, they seem to act normal. I got my last fish on Jan. 2nd this year, and I hadn't noticed any abnormal behavior then, that I can remember, and it can't have happened when I introduced the plants because I kept tehm seperate for a day or two then rinsed them under warm water and removed them from the water. So wouldn't they not be able bring flukes in? I thought I had noticed this behavior before I added them too; it's mainly just my gold oranda that does it.

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"If it is just a general tonic/destressor then 0.1% (1tsp/gal) is fine.

0.3% is used to treat certain parasites and some fungal infections. As mkinga said, increase by 0.1% every 12 hrs."

I looked up salt dosages, and found this by Captk; does this mean I will need to use 20 tablespoons? 0.3% = 3 teaspoons x 20 gals = 60 teaspoons / 3 = 20 tabelspoons. Am I correct?

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In a 20 - that's 20 teaspoons taking you to 0.1%. Then 12hrs later, another 20 teaspoons and then 12hrs after that - another 20 teaspoons.

It won't hurt your fish so I'd go to the 0.3% in 24hrs...

See if this does anything to improve the symptoms.... :)

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Hi, Roano - You're right - for some reason I thought this was Kotniee's post - Sorry! Prazi is good stuff, works, fast, is safe - I hope it does the trcik for you and your fish are all better soon! :)

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Yeah, was a little confused there for a sec.

"I hope it does the trcik for you and your fish are all better soon!"

Thanks Graham. If the salt doesn't work, I will order myself some Prazi; luckily I have just enough money.

I salted to .1% already, will add more at 10:00 pm tonight. I did see my fish rub against the ornament, I don't know if it was deliberate or not, but thought I should mention it anyway.

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Okay; I haven't noticed any rubbing or yawning, I just added the final .1%, so hopefully this took care of some things with them. I hope it was just some micro parasite that wasn't resistant to salt.

The thing with flukes is, I don't understand how they got them, unless some how they came in on the plants or my fish have had them since the beginning of this year, which I don't think is possible without any of them being dead. I guess I'm just crossing my fingers now.

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Noticed yawning today, but no rubbing on the gravel. Maybe just weak gills in these fish? I have never seen the one that's now seperate yawn.

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It seemed after I added the total dosage of salt, their dorsal fins got dropy when they were swimming. They still raise them if they're surprised, but haven't been carrying them erect like they used to. Can this be an effect of the salt?

Still yawning, but saw no rubbing on gravel. Will check water params today.

For water changes, should I add that amount of salt back to the new gallons I put in?

What are some symptoms of gill disease? How do fish contract it?

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Will somebody please help me! This is an emergancy now; both fish now have dropsy!

Ammonia: .25

Nitrate: 10 aprox

Nitrite: aprox 0

Levels weren't optimum, changed a few gals, will do more tomorrow. Have a heater for a 10 gal which was going to be for my other dropsied fish who now looks much better; should I hook this up? I think they may have body flukes/gill flukes, I am ordering Prazi tomorrow in the morning. Will add that and feed Metro Med. The tank is salted to about .3% with Aquarium Salt. Please help me!

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Thanks, whichever mod moved my topic; I really appreciate it.

Back to gravel rubbing, still slight yawning. I'm ordering the Prazi today so it gets here ASAP. I have the air bubbles on and the filter and light on, I plan to hook up the heater; the water temp is currently around 70 degrees F. I'm feeding them the Metro-Med I have, but they seem to have trouble swallowing it.

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Is there anything else I can get that would be at a local store that's effective against Flukes besides?

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Bought some Parasite Clear, one of the Jungle products; it claimed to be effective against gill mites, gill flukes, body flukes, etc. Decided to buy this because it contained Prazi as it's main ingrediant, and also Metrondizale. They had Quick Cure, but it didn't specificly say for flukes, just 'other parasites like Ich'. Added the Parasite Clear just now, hopefully this will help as well as the .3% salt treatment.

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Hi Roano - I just got home from interstate, logged on and noticed your post (was hoping it was good news). Anyhow, I'm so sorry it's become worse :(

See how you go with the Parasite Clear but in the meantime, bacterial gill disease has some very distinct symptoms eg.

- holes in the gill tissue

- white streaks through the gill tissue

- greenish pale and swollen

- tends to stay open (due to swelling)

9 times out of 10, bacterial gill disease is brought on by parasites... especially flukes...

How are your water parameters now? If your fish are pineconing - try to get your water perfect and then try epsom salt... are they still pineconing? Is it getting worse?

With the food - if you pre-soak it first, you can try getting a sharp knife and cutting the pieces smaller so your fish can eat them.

Anyhow, I hate to ask this but would you be able to give an update on all symptoms and water parameters? We can then take it from there.

Please post back soon :)

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"I hate to ask this but would you be able to give an update on all symptoms and water parameters? We can then take it from there."

Sure! Thanks again for helping me.

Ammonia: .25

Nitrate: 10 aprox

Nitrite: aprox 0

These are the params from last night, this morning I changed a couple of gals. Do you want the params again? Will adding epsom salt to an already salted tank of .3% hurt the fish?

The pineconing is very minamal, I noticed it because their eyes seemed to be particularily large, then checked and found pineconing. They have been rubbing, yawning, I think flashing, taking a long time to eat, and my gold oranda was nipping my white oranda's tail fins, so I seperated them with a home-made divider, because I didn't want them stressing each other out. Also, their dorsal fin isn't always erect, but today it seems that they are holding it up more.

I don't think they have gill disease, but I will keep a lookout for that if it starts to get infected.

Also noticed my other recovering dropsy fish has been possible rubbing, can't be sure if it's intentional or not, because he's a very weak swimmer. No yawning or other symptomes that I saw.

Been feeding them Metro Med, put in recommended amount of Parasite Clear in both tanks just a few hours ago, and I haven't ordered the Prazi because I want to see if this works first, since it has prazi as it's top ingrediant. I have an unused Topfin heater that is for a 10 gal which I was origonally planning to use on the other fish, but now that the others have it worse, I'm going to hook it up. I know the parasites will multiply faster but then I can get them out of the tank's system quicker; currently the temps at 70 degrees.

Again, thanks for replying.

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I think at this stage feeding the metromeds should help the beginnings of any pineconing...

Did you add the full amount of Parasite Clear? You may find it takes a day or 2 to see any improvement....

Don't worry about the epsom salt - you don't want to use in conjunction with salt anyhow. Have you noticed the swelling abating with the metromeds? How long have you been feeding MM's?

I'd medicate all fish especially if they all shared a tank at one point - this will ensure no reinfestation...

The most important thing at the moment is keeping their water parameters as perfect as possible - it'll reduce the stress on your fish (which reduces their natural ability to fight off any nasties)...

I'm not sure how PC works in conjunction with salt so as a precaution, perhaps start reducing the salininty in your tank - especially if you're going to do a couple of smaller waterchanges to dilute the toxicity of ammonia.

See how you go over the next 24hrs and try to keep a careful eye on symptoms. If you see any other unusual signs, please post back as it helps narrow down possible causes.

My fingers are crossed that full recovery is just around the corner :)

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I had changed out about 25% of the water. I then added the PC, but watched them carefully, and they seemed fine. Actually, today they are looking better; haven't seen any rubbing or yawning, ate better, though I did soak the MM well. Dorsal fins are also erect. I am very happy, but also afraid we are going to have a relapse. Tommorrow evening, it will have been 48 hours since I added the first dose of PC, and the instructions said I could use it then with a 25% water change before. Do you think I should wait longer for the egg flukes to hatch? Maybe dose in three days?

Abdominal swelling seems the same, but the scales aren't as raised. Poop is also brown. I started feeding MM's yesterday; my other fish looks good too. I think I've been catching the dropsy in time, because in both cases, on the second day scales have gone down; I still plan on feeding them it for 21 days.

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I also figured out how to work my heater with help from Fishmerised and Benno; should I turn it on? I need to do it at a time I can keep checking it, because without a thermometer on the heater it's kind of guess and check...

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Tank water isn't quite as clear as it used to be, because I had to remove the filter cartrige because I have the kind that has the charcoal inside the sponge, so I had to remove the whole thing and replace it with an aquarium sponge; I know this will reduce the amount of beneficial bacteria in the tank, but my tank is already cycled and I think there is enough bacteria in the gravel.

I think I caught the gold oranda rubbing, but haven't seen the other do it or anymore or yawning, although her dorsal is slightly lowered.

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