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Poor Valentine, Jumped The New Container


Guest Krista

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Guest Krista

:crp Well, all was going well, but I ran out of test strips a couple days ago and had not gotten to the store. I was keeping with 50% water changes daily. Just before I left this evening I did the water change. I knew I would get the strips while I was out and figured everything should be good.

We got home and poor Valentine was on the counter dried up. My hubbie put her back into the tank and it looked bad. :(

A few minutes and things started looking a little better. The fish is swimming around well now, but the water was strange when I checked it. The ph and alkalinity were really high. That is fixed now with another water change, but the 'softness' is at 0. It has been around 75 before.

So basically, every day there has been a 50% water change. All testing was going good. I was putting a tsp. of salt in with each water change, about 3 or so gallons. I was also putting a tad of baking soda to keep the alkalinity ideal. Today there were 2 50% water changes resulting in all looking well, with the exception of soft.

Advice? Judging from other stories on this site, I am assuming right now that my fish should make it even after the near death experience. That I know is provided it gets pristine water.

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Hi - sorry to hear about your experience - how terrible! I hope your fish will recover completely! :)

You did not mention the size of your tank - is there a reason you are doing daily water changes? What are you using to treat your tap water?

If you take a look at the questions at the top of this page and you try to answer as many as you as best as you can - all kinds of helpful comments will come flooding in! But, I think a little more information is needed... is your fish a goldie or a Betta?

PS - Be very careful with baking soda! A tiny bit is ALOT! I just overdid mine and it was not fun :crp but right after that (of course)! I found Dataguru's nifty calculator - posted in Water Chemistry - invaluable!

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Oh poor valentine! I hope she will be Ok, a lot depends on how long she was out of the water and if any long term damage was done.

I really can't advise you on the alkalinity and baking soda, it's not my forte but suggest you start a thread in Water Chemistry and someone will be able to help out. Baking soda raises the carbonate hardness of your water but it may also be low in calcium hardness, hence the low alkalinity reading.

Frankly, I find it too complicated and there is a lot of mucking around to keep the water parameters consistent. I prefer to use a product by Seachem called Gold Buffer. It maintains your pH in a range between 7.2 - 7.8 and buffers the water so there are no sudden rises and drops. It is easy to follow the dosage on the instructions.

Graham, Valentine was in a container because she has been sick and her tank is being stripped down to start over.

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Don't apologise Graham, I don't think it's possible to read every thread on Koko's. I haven't read your recent ones about GN but you've sparked my conscience and I'm off to do it now. ;)

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Guest Krista

Alright, I will get some of that for the ph. This morning things look good. The only bad thing is that purple has gotten dark again. It had started to fade a little. Not much, just a little. Now the body of the fish is real purple again. I have searched and cannot find anything on this, so I am not sure if I should be treating it with meds. The purple color is deep and almost looks like the coloring of the fish.

Thanks again for the help.

Krista

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That is so strange about the purple getting darker again. I'm quite at a loss. My original idea about blood poisoning doesn't seem right if the fish had appeared to recover and now this?

Some advice about pH products. Some products just increase or decrease pH, for this purpose you may as well stick with the baking soda. Look for something that actually 'buffers' the water as well.

nb. I suppose you are already considering ideas to cover his container.

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Yes, I actually felt pretty dumb when I thought about how I had left the lid off. Today is looking good. The fish is still purple, but looks good otherwise.

Tell me, is leaving water stand for 24 hours better than using the chlorine removers? It is safe to just put it in after that?

As far as my setting up my tank again: The fish that this site says are hardier and can handle the tank cycling better, do you just leave those in and do they live happily with the goldfish? How about getting an older goldfish to use that could maybe handle it better?? What are your ideas on that.

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Just a thought but I was wondering fi the "purpleness" might be a lack of oxygen or an imbalance of oxygen/co2 exchange... is the purple generalized or in specific areas like tummy/fin/head area?

I promised I wouldn't go shooting off at the mouth on your thread again :ignore since I am very new but I am just wondering if purpleness might be deoxygenation or some fishy version of it - and circulation...

maybe I am way off - sorry!

Especially now that the purpleness is getting better since he is back in water - maybe it just takes a while).

I really hope Valentine continues to improve! :heart

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Graham, any ideas are welcome. I'm stumped about the purple.

Leaving the water standing will evaporate the chlorine but using a water conditioner does this as well as binding heavy metals and detoxing ammonia/nitrIte. If possible do both but otherwise a water conditioner is preferable.

If you are referring to daninos for cycling your tank, yes, you can leave them in with the goldfish. Daninos are schooling fish and are very small so to cycle a 30g tank I would get about 4-6 of them. They will eat crumbled up goldfish flakes. I have kept daninos with goldfish for 3 years. They can be nippy little critters so never just keep one danino or it may nip and chase your goldfish. When kept in a group they tend to ignore the goldfish.

I agree that larger, older goldfish are generally hardier than the small, young ones. If you choose to go this way try for medium size so it doesn't put out too much waste while the tank is cycling.

Basically, it just a matter of preference which you would prefer.

Oh, I'm getting excited about the new set-up, keep us posted. :)

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I am excited about starting the new tank as well. I want to make the tank nicer this time. We have a few decorations in it now, but I never replaced the back scenery when I got the 30 gallon. I read an idea about using markers and paper, so now I am going to let all my kids decorate a backdrop. They will be so excited!! They love the tank and were so broken hearted when it looked like Valentine would die. When Goldie died we had a funeral in the back yard. All my kids were crying their eyes out, and I was too.

As far as the purple and oxygen, that is a good point. When I got on the web tonight I wanted to ask about the 'hardness' of the water. About two days into the new container the water started becoming softer. (Let me add for you, Graham, the first sign of sickness in Valentine involved a purple streak down one side of the body, in the center of the fish. This was a large deep streak, not like little blood veins, more internally, like a main artery or something else.) Now, Valentines facial area looks a little strange, and I think it is part of getting stuck in that filter, sort of a healing bruise. The gills are slightly puffy compared to normal, most likely from being flopped on the counter. The purple is visible on both sides and is not seeming to go away.

On the test container, under Total hardness, it reads:

"Hardness is the measure of calcium and magnesium in the water. Water hardness affects the fish's ability to maintain correct balance between its internal body fluids and the external environment. Most freshwater aquarium fish and plants prefer a hardness level of 50-150 ppm. Hardness below 50 ppm can affect pH, over 150 ppm can result in the formation of white mineral deposits on tanks and equipment. Note: the total hardness pad is not used for saltwater tank readings."

So, I can't imagine that this is the cause of the purple, since this was not a problem in the tank, and since the first couple of days the hardness was right at 75. I wonder if my fish is uncomfortable. The only time it looks stressed is when I start to vacuum the tank for the daily 50% water change. Could the salt be causing this? I am being not over salting, if anything I am probably under salting out of fear. The first day the container had 50% aquarium water, then I did 50% water changes daily since there is not a filter. I bought a new filter so I can have two on the new aqarium, should I put it in the container?

Thanks for the help!!

Krista :)

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Guest Krista

One more thing, I was reading about goldfish poop, what is the definition of long and short poop? In terms of inches or centimeters?

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Another thing, I think I have a shubunkin. It does mention lavender, blue, as colors??? :hummm Could it be that this color started emerging in the same time frame as the sickness?? I think this is most likely doubtful.

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Salt should not cause stress, rather the opposite and it assists the function of the gills. Daily gravel vacuuming in the container shouldn't do it either, unless the siphon just scares her.

The new filter might be too big for the container and create too much water current for comfort. In effect all a filter does is provide a home for the biobugs so your tank can cycle. It's really difficult to cycle small volumes of water, you would still have to do daily water changes in the container anyway.

I think the new filter would be more useful in the tank, it will help cycle it more quickly.

No idea why the water is softer these past two days, most likely directly related to your water source. Baking Soda will increase carbonate hardness (alkalinity) but to increase calcium hardness you can add things like crushed coral or oyster shell to the tank. These are long term solutions suitable for an established tank. Even then it it trial and error to find the correct balance and keep it there. A pH buffer increases both and it is easy to dose.

A short poop is a few millimeters like this ... a long poop is anything say twice as long as that. It also depends on the size of your fish.

What colour was Valentine before her illness? Fish do change colour but since the purple started as a streak, I doubt colour change is the reason. The only thing I can think of is an internal infection but it doesn't seem to fit this situation. Still it sounds like Valentine is doing extremely well considering what shes been through.

Have you started with the new tank yet? I'm glad the kids are excited and want to be involved, it's a good learning experience for them.

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Guest Krista

I've begun cleaning out the tank, this morning I actually have tthe time to go throught the whole process of setting it back up again,you know, all that spare time I have!!

That part of her body was white. I will try to get my mom over here with her digital camera this weekend. I have one, but it is on my palm pilot and is not very good at detail. Not that it would change anything, just so you can see.

I do think it is most likely due to the sickness. She is a little more jumpy right now than before. Maybe the pH buffer will get things under control.

Thanks,

Krista

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How is Valentine? :heart

I had a jumper last night - He was completley purple! (He almost made it but his spine was broken, too - too much for the little guy in the end).

The purple is very likely the dexygenated blood pooled up - is it getting better? If that's what it is, it should go away eventually, I would think.

The original purple streak might be trauma - like a heamatoma. Or maybe dead tissue where an injury occurred. Or a deoxygenated area of tissue - maybe a badly functioning gill. Just a thought...

I will reread Valentine's original thread.

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Guest Krista

As of now, it does seem to be clearing up some. The gills are slightly swollen still, some scales are a slight bit raised, but overall the fish seems a little more relaxed. I got the seachem ph balancer with buffer, and some stress coat. I think my fish likes the stresscoat better than the other dechlorinator I was using temporarily. My neighbor gave me some since I was out and needed to do another water change. I was thinking back and think that may be part of why things began to turn bad again. Maybe the other stuff is too old.

Hopefully we can figure out this crazy problem. I haven't had much time to research the internet lately.

Thanks again for all the help.

Krista

P.S. I am really sorry to hear about your fish!! :(

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Thanks, Krista - no worries, it was a little killifish I got yesterday. I felt sorry for him but it was over quickly. It was NOT Graham Norton (who is perfectly rcovered from his boo boo!

That's some good news about Valentine! It must be nice for you to see her relax and improve! (Sorry, she's a boy, right?) We will keep sending her white light! :D

The dechlorinator being old is a good theory - do you still have the bottle? Does it have an expiration date? I will try to find out since I am looking up so mne other stuff anyway.

COME ON, VALENTINE! :heart

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No expiration date is on the bottle. I got the stuff Fishmerised recomended and keep adding it with the water changes. The water has improved but is not perfect. Maybe I should put more in than what the pachage reads? She recommended posting something in water chemistry, but I wanted to follow her suggestions first. I may do that later tonight if things don't stabilize.

As far as Valentines boy or girl status, my daughter, who got the fish for a Valentine gift for me, insists it is a girl. I automatically call most fish boys, so I have most likely gone back and forth. The main reason for htis is my attempt at not calling the fish "He", which is a habit that I am promply corrected on by my dd. :)

Krista

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Guest Krista

NEWSFLASH!!!

While looking at the rocks that were in my fish tank I noticed an eaten up penny. Several months ago my lovely little 2 year old (at the time) decided that she would genorously give the fish some money. I promptly got it out, but there mush have been one more. I totally forgot about it until I saw that. It may have been as much as 6-9 months ago, I just can't even remember.

So, I would assume this solves my problem as to what started all this. Now I just hope that the fish is able to get rid of whatever toxins are in it.

I need a childproof tank lid!!! I will try to come up with something.

Krista

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Hi Krista, do you mean the fish ate the penny? Was it a copper coin? If so that could be detrimental to the fish. Copper is very toxic to fish. Hmmn, perhaps this is a clue to the purple streak?

When I first started using Seachem Gold Buffer I needed to add more than the recommended dose. I asked the owner of the koi farm why it wasn't working, he told me sometimes it is necessary to build the buffer up at first by adding more. Give it a try.

I must confess to giving you incorrect advice about baking soda not buffering - it does. I told you water chemistry is not my forte but I find the Seachem stuff works for me.

I recently read datagurus webpage and she has some interesting links on there about water chemistry. I need to learn how to post a link but if you click on "members" at top of the page and search for dataguru you can find her webpage.

I'm going to try to post a link, back soon if I can.

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Just to help you out, Annette, and of course Krista, here you go....

Dataguru's website

The links are all the way on the bottom of the main page, but I figured its a treat to look at all her tanks first... :)

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So what are you using to test your water?

Could you post specific numbers please?

On your chlorine question. from what I've read, if you city is using chlorine, that's supposed to gas out in 24 hours. however if they're using chloramine, that won't gas out.

I don't like stress coat cuz it has plant sap in it and one of the online vets says that can potentially clog the gills. I'm in the less is better camp when it comes to water conditioners.

Do you have plenty of airation in your QT tank?

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Hi - That penny could have something to do with Valentine's illness!

All I could find about it was info. on metallic poisoning in general:

Tank Poisoning Because of the small area in which fish live while being housed in tanks, the slightest amount of toxin can become lethal to fish.? 

Toxic Substances:? Toxins to fish can be both obvious and concealed forms.

chemicals were used around the tank (bug spray, perfumes, aerosol cans, fireplace smoke, cigarette smoke)

1. metallic objects

2. over medication of main tank

3. non-approved aquarium sealant that has not been properly cured.

Symptoms of a poisoned fish:? The fish may be swimming or darting around the tank running into things.? They may be breathing very fast and have blotchy coloration, and or balance problems may appear.? The fish may also be on its side breathing rapidly.

The key words for a definite poisoning are "sudden" and "most".? If rapid breathing occurs "suddenly"' or "most" of the fish are are acting this way there is some form of toxin in the water.? Some poisoning, such as metallic poisoning, may occur gradually, but the fish will show symptoms quickly.? Therefore, if the problems have occurred slowly over a few days, your fish is probably not poisoned but living in poor water conditions or suffering from disease.

But, I also read a recommended treatment for Velvet (I guess, the old fashioned way) is to drop a panny in the tank! :yikes If the fish does not have velvet though, I would think a penny in the tank might lead to copper toxicity... Dunno!

You have removed the penny, worked on the water, presumably done changes - if the fish starts getting better, then maybe the penny was the culprit!

Maybe there are additional, opportunistic things going on...

Hope Valentine, the she-male fish :teehee , pulls through soon! :heart

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