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Kissy

Not Again...

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Hmmmm... I don't think it would hurt. I can't think of anything (parasites, bacteria, or whatnot) that would actually be helped with you doing that.

That's the best advice I can offer... I'm no chemist.

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Hi Kissy - it sounds like it's a salt resistent parasite....

Before coming lethargic, did he flash at all?

If you can get a microscope - then i'd do a scrape and scope urgently... If this were my fish i'd try and get some prazi, it's one of the most gentle medications for fish (humans use it as a wormer and it can be taken by children). It also clears any internal parasites (ie. worms etc...)

But first things first - can you check his gills? See if they're a dark red and untattered?

Post back soon :)

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No flashing ever. He seems to be doing *slightly* better, but not much. If I walk up to the tank he comes out for a while, but always goes back to his spot behind the plate. The gills looked okay last time I checked, but hold on and I'll go check again.

My mom said no to bringing home a microscope, but she said we have one at home. I almost killed myself bringing it off of the shelf (not really, but I'm only 5'1" ish and it was heavy!) But there are not slide covers!!!

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My mom refuses to bring home slide covers. Is it possible to try without one?

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Kissy - you don't need a slide cover - spread he water droplet thinly (it may streak ) and then look carefully through the scope for a streak - just watch your lens as you focus - since it is water and not a biohazardous sample or something that might muck up the lens - it wouldn't be the end if the lens got a tiny bit of water on it... just watch carefully. What magnification lenses are available?

Maybe you could try to reach Dataguru about help with the microscope, what magnification you need to see what size matter. I hope it helps in your diagnosis! :)

PRAZI ON THE WAY!

Edited by Graham

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Did you send it today or will you tomorrow? Is there a way I can track the package? Thank you sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much for sending meds :)

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Hi Kissy. :)

I think thats great that you are trying to save this little fella. But, I have to agree with some of the points that Devs made about making sure you are ready for bringing home a new fish. Even if its a spur of the moment thing. No worries though, we'll do our best to get this little wiggler up and thriving. In the future though, try to keep a little submerged filter going on an already cycled tank (healthy tank, that is) at all times. This, along with having your quarentine tank always going with its own filter on it (cycled). This way, if your quarentine tank already has a new arrival or sick one in it, you can just take out the little submerged filter from the healthy tank and place it in a 5 gallon bucket or the like (optimally, a 5-10 gallon tank). Here's the exact filter that I use for exactly the scenario I described above: sand shark (penn-plax) Its small, quite, versatile and the perfect filter for those in a pinch emergencies like this. Since it pushes 60gph, it is perfect for a 5 gallon tank or bucket (wich is fine temorarily for small to medium goldies).

I will do my best to help you through anything. Just try to be as descript as possible about things. Even about the smallest little visual cues, behaviors, anything. Sometimes a wealth of information can be unlocked by the most obscure little nuance. Especially when it comes to parasites. Wich, your little guy just might have.

Okay. let's start from the very beginning. Try answering ALL of the questions from the box above. Go into detail about the sores and spots and colors of them.

Regardless of any of the info you give us, you should do the following:

Stop feeding metromeds for now. Just concentrate on medi-gold. Feed as much as the goldie will take (within reason). And always soak dry food, for fancy goldies, for a few minutes beforehand.

There are several drugs that should be immediately administered to ANY new fish that is brought home. Salt, praziquantel and dimilin used together makes for the very best parasite treatment you can get. Together, used during quarentine, you will be assured of total eradication of ANY parasites (except the rare cases of salt resistant costia) that the new fish might have. All three are VERY safe to use too!

Dimilin is for ergasilus, lernea and argulus. Should only be used if you can visibly see any of these crustaceans.

Salt is for ciliated parasites (costia, chilodonella, trichodina and epystilus).

Prazi kills flukes dead.

The salt should remain at 0.3% for a whole month. Unless it is thought to be negatively affected by the salt. Some fancies can get a little floaty in salty water. The praziquantel should be used as per the instructions on this page: Prazi, flukes destroyer

These treatments can be used during the cycling of a tank as they are VERY safe to use on any fish and will not affect the bio-filter. Salt at 0.3% is actually suppose to be used when cycling with a goldie anyway.

Of course, NO treatment can be considered effective unless the water params stay good enough to keep your goldie from becoming more ill. Here's what I suggest here:

If you have a healthy, cycled tank, take a bunch of the brown filtergoop off of the filterpad/sponge as you can by swishing it around in the newly cycling tank (watch out for the goldie though). This will essentially cause your filter to become fully cycled within less than a week (if you can get a good bunch of goop into it. Don't worry, the goop gets sucked into the filter really quick.

Post back soon with the answers to my questions and we can get a treatment regime laid out for you. Good luck! :D

Paul

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I fforgot to add that before you try any slime scrapes, you should try examining the stuff that collect on the filterfloss under your scope. Do this for as long as your eyes can stand it and you should begin to get a general understanding of what is in there, how big things are by comparison. And it trains your eyes very well for spotting movement in the slime once you do a real scrape.

I just don't want you to put your goldie through any stress until your ready to go with the slime scrape. ;)

Where do you live, I happen to have a ton of coverslips and slides. I might be able to get them in the mail to you by friday......

Sorry for the redundancy of my first post. I didn't realize there were more pages before I posted. :rolleyes:

Post back soon.

Paul

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Ok, here are the newst box answers:

Ammonia: .25 (doing a waterchange when I get off the computer)

Nitrite: probably 0 or close to zero, I'll test before the waterchange)

Nitrate: around 10

pH: 8.2-8.3 (will double check) (I didn't know better before, so I added a ton of pH down in the tank to get pH down to 7.5 to acclimated the fish with pH change. My Kh is over 300 so it bounced back up to the 8's within the hour)

filtration: hang over the back regent filter by marineland (model 30-60)

Tank: 29 gallons, only one new baby lionhead that is 2.5-3" with tail, been running since the day I brought Oliver home(five days), not cycled.

Additives: Tetra Aqua water condtioner (hoping to buy prime this week) .3% salt. I've done two .6% salt baths six hours apart but it doesn't seem to have much effect. I tried an aquari-sol net dip out of desparation and it seems to have helped Oliver because he is more active than this afternoon)

Food: 3-4 pellets of Metro-med cut in half and fed divided into two to three feedings)

Waterchanges: Once or twice a day, 3-7 gallons. I try to keep the ammonia under 3ppm

Behavior: Still eats like a piggy. When I first got him, he was extremely active and swam back and forth, up and down against the glass. Yeserday he became less active, no swimming back/forth, up/down on the front glass. Last night and today he was even less active. He hid behind the plate I keep in there so feedings are easier with his head down and sometimes under the plate. He seems more active this evening. He occasionally "yawns". It takes him about 2-4 minutes to chew his food unless its completely mushy, then it takes about one minute.

Physical Signs: Poop is usually 1/2 to 3/4 inch long, and sometimes stays stuck for a while. After feedings it is light to medium brown, and inbetween feedings it is thing and clear. There are two red spots on the left side of the base of his tail fin (not the fin itself) I noticed them the second day. They *may* have been smaller and more intense of a red before, but they seem to be orangish red and take up an entire scale each. They haven't spread. There are a couple pin-like holes in his wen, but no stringy mucous trails. The edges of the side of the tail fins seem slightly tattered, not ripped looking though. He occasionally breathes from the surface. The gills and his breathing seem fine other than occasional surface breathing and yawning.

I tried doing a slime scrape and found nothing..actually I couldn't get the thing to focus because I didn't know what all the knobs did. I put Oliver back in the tank for fear of stressing him out. Prazi is on the way. I don't think Formalin will help because there are no "see-able" parasites.

So I should switch to medi-gold? What does it treat..It didn't say anything about symptoms on the container. I'm not sure if I can get the slide covers from you, I'm already smuggling in a betta house and the prazi ._. Paying for that shipping and the prime is going to leave me completely broke too. When I soak the Metro-med, I usually let it soak for a half hourish. It is still pretty hard and he seems to have a hard time chewing and it takes him a long time.

I have an almost cycled tank that probably doesn't have too much muck but I can try. Thanks for the help, I'll get the rest of the params to you in about an hour.

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param confirmations:

nitrite: 0

nitrate: 0 (I meant to say earlier its usually about 5 or less from the tap, not ten)

pH: 8.3

I'm in the middle of a water change, and the water is cooling in my room. I am only doing 3 gallons tonight because I don't want to stress him since he is doing a little better. I found that adding a glass of crushed ice to three gallons cools the water down almost to the tank temp :) I always put the conditioner in last.

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Should i try another aquari-sol dip tomorrow? I didn't quite follow directions today..I forgot to shake the bottle before hand. It didn't say so on the box, only the bottle!

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He's doing about the same as last night this morning (a little better) I woke up at 5:30 and went to go see him and he was hiding behind the plate again. I freaked out..but then I eventuallly convinced myelf he's tired and is sleeping. I didn't turn out the lights til 11:30 last night..and kind of had been that way all week. So I put a beach towel over his aquarium so it would be darker and could get more rest. I took a peak at 8:30 and he was awake and swimming a bit :) So yah, I'm going to try and get the feedings and waterchanges done before sunset today so Oliver can get a good night's sleep.

My dad told me he thought that our microscope was broken..maybe that's why I had so much trouble! Well, my grandma brought over her microscope (yah my whole family is one big science nerd) so I'll check that out today, and fiddle with it so I know what I'm doing before I try the slime scrape. Still no slide covers tho lol.

Kortniee, do you think you could get the package here by saturday? I have to leave on sunday ._.

I fed him a medi-gold pellet last night (only one because I had already fed him his dinner) and one this morning to make sure he is eating. He'll get two more for breakfast in a bit. How much should I be feeding him?

Keep sending love radiation and positive thoughts to Oliver, I think its working.

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"Keep sending love radiation and positive thoughts to Oliver, I think its working."

Will do! Really hope he makes it; when are the meds are coming? That was so nice of Graham and Kortinee.

I'd feed him as much as you think he can eat, just like a regular food.

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Okay, I'll start feeding a little more then. I'm not sure when the package will come, hopefully very soon!

Edited by Kissy

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I'm begining to think there is a problem with his mouth? There is absolutely nothing suspicous looking inside and out, but it REALLY takes him a long time to chew and swallow food...even if it is so thouroughly soaked that it is falling apart when I pick it out of the soaking cup. Any ideas? It definately doesn't stop his love for food tho. He eats like cookie monster...sucks up as much as he can as fast as he can, then takes forever chewing up the food. You can see all the crumbs falling from his mouth :teehee

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That's kind of strange that it would take him a really long time to eat mashed pellets... maybe just a slow eater? Mine sometimes take a little bit of time to eat soaked flakes, so maybe and hopefully there isn't anything else wrong.

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kissy - meds in the mail by fedex ground - went out today (takes 24 hours for tracking number to register in system) - I will PM you the tracking number later tonight -- kitty calling!

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Okay :D Kortniee and I decided it was best to cut time and have her buy and send some prazi because the package needs to be here at least by saturday. So the package was sent today, supposed to get here by noon, and I think Kortniee is going to keep the prazi you sent her. Plus, it will help me out with shipping because I basically only have five bucks right now. Is that okay?

Oliver seems better this evening! He was pretty active, and when after I did the waterchange he was even more active! He was back to swimming up and down/back and forth on the glass. The only think I am kinda worried about tonight is that he was breathing kinda hard after the waterchange...but I guess that's normal with all that swimming around? It makes sense lol...I just want to be sure.

I tried out my grandma's microscope...omg it is so ghetto! She probably bought the thing at a garage sale (she's that kind of lady) for like 10 bucks. It uses no energy, has a mirror instead of a reflector, and was basically a peice of garbage. I wiped some spit on a slide to test it out and I was like "oh COOL!" cuz I saw all these neat things. Then I tried to move the slide and nothing happened. I took off the whole slide and saw the same thing...yah...it was a nice gesture. My mom's friend brought me slide covers, and she's going to try and get ahold of a microscope. Being a part of a science family is so useless if they can't get a microscope! Lol..

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LMAO - I remember when I got my first scope and it was a cool little cheapy... i scraped some of my dog's slobber onto the glass and thought wow - wonder what all this means? Then when i pulled the slide out - hey presto - exactly the same thing... doh!

But seriously, once you get the prazi, dose your tank. I don't think there's anything wrong with his mouth but when fish have trouble swallowing food - it may be due to an advancing stage of parasites.

Prazi together with the medigold/salt combo should hopefully see a 100% improvement in the next few days.

My fingers are crossed :)

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I hope so...I think its getting harder for him to swallow. Most of his food he spits out while he's chewing and it falls inbetween the cracks of the pebbles before he can dive down and get it, so I have retrieve it and start over again. He's had a lot of long stringy poop stuck for long periods of time.

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How do you dose prazi into the tank? It's powder right?

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Oh no!!! Kortniee, I tried tracking the UPS number you gave me but its not working! It says it is invalid. Is there a way you can double check the number? I hope it was sent...one more hour til noon. :(

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Wooo! The package came like an hour and a half ago!!!!

When I heard the knock at the door I like rocketed out of my seat and squealed "IT'S HERE!!!!!!!" Then I ran over to the door and almost slid to my death trying to stop on my tile :P I was like so excited I could barely sign! I've never been so excited for a package...well maybe when I was really really little at Christmas..but I dunno, it would be very close.

So I dosed Oliver's tank and he's already a little more active. He was doing a tiny bit worse this morning but he's better now. Then I went and washed out the Orchard's new home and plopped him in. He loves his new home, its perfect Kortniee! Even the colors contrast to show off his color :) I tried to take a picture but he wouldn't hold still, so I'm going to try again later. Thank you for the prime too, it will surely help out while I'm gone..I'll probably tell my mom to add some instead of doing waterchanges if I can get away with it.

I was so scared it wouldn't come, you wouldn't believe it. I'm so happy now tho :)

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"When I heard the knock at the door I like rocketed out of my seat and squealed "IT'S HERE!!!!!!!" Then I ran over to the door and almost slid to my death trying to stop on my tile I was like so excited I could barely sign!"

Sounds like you were very relieved to find it made it. I wonder if the delivory guy was surprised at your enthusiasum?

Goodluck with the treatment, and convincing your mom to do the water changes. He sounds alot better too.

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