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Black Moor: Eye About To Burst, Tumor?


Guest hamilton9

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Gosh Hamilton - I wish the news was better :(

Which of the options are you leaning towards?

The report you received may be the correct one as some of the tests they ran may have included the liver - apparently one of the starting points for any diagnosis.

They'll be able to take you through it though.

I hope something can be done and that marty improves soon.

Whichever course of action you decide, my thoughts are with you both.

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Yes, I can only second Jen's sentiment. Whichever way this develops, you have done your best and our thoughts are with you. :heart

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Thats it?? :blink:

They couldn't find ANYTHING? Did the vet/s ever look at all the photos, descriptions, timelines, etc? Seems to me that these would be VERY important aspects to consider. hmmmmm. Sure hope they didn't skip that bit.........

Good Luck with whatever you decide. :)

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I had the vet office refax the correct report. They didn't confirm if they sent me the incorrect one, however the woman said it should have been two pages. She then faxed me two pages (which were different from the first page they sent me). The two pages were a cover page and the cytology report. The cover page mentions an attached Culture and Sensitivity Report as well as a Cytology Report. The secong page is stamped "cytology" -- so there are still some questions if I have all the pages or not!?

Cytology report reads:

Microscropic

A direct smear contains VERY (they underscored this word three times) rare blood cells and very scant cell debris and pigment. A cytospin smear consists of numerous highly pigmented cells, cell debris and cells too old and degenerate to be identified, blood cells, and free melanin pigment.

Opinion

Cannot differentiate normal pigmented ocular epithelium from pigmented ocular tumor or melanophages. Recommend histopathology.

Dr H's answers to my questions:

1. Lethargy is from the stress of transport and handling. (Five days of lethargy??)

2. Asked what tests the labs ran, whether there were others they could have considered. All he said was "they ran what was appropriate."

3. Asked if they didn't get enough sample -- he said this was unlikely.

4. Asked if he's worked on small fish and he said those who survived surgery did well; some died during surgery.

5. Removing fluid would give relief but not change underlying cytology. If he were a dog or cat, the next step would have been to get an MRI but this is impossible for a fish.

6. The steroids (cortisone) in the Baytril injection last Tues was to help bring down the swelling, return eye tissue back to normal. Hard to tell if that's happening. I'm so used to the way the eye looks now that I can't seem to tell the difference.

7. Asked if he saw all the gallery photos and what the brown balls in his eye were, and he wrote on my fax -- "tumor."

I was leaning towards removing fluids but seeing how stressed he still is, I just don't know what to do. I got a call from a Dr Garcia -- referred by that exotic animal vet whom I never talked to. Since he's in my local area, I'll talk to him on Monday, see what his experience is like with small fish and maybe take Marty there to get the fluids out. Garcia left a message on my cell that surgery would be a 7-day hospital stay (!!!) Does he get a private room???? (Seriously, the real question is whom should I trust...?)

Doc Johnson wrote and recommended Dr H, said I was in capable hands. Marty's still eating and hiding in the corner.

lost in LA...

H.

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Well that certainly seems a bit more like it. But it still doesn't explain very much. :(

---------------

One thing I wonder about is what is typed here:

"Cannot differentiate normal pigmented ocular epithelium from pigmented ocular tumor or melanophages"...... "recommend histopathology".

Does this mean that he couldn't visibly tell a difference between the growths on the iris from the skin around the eyeball?

-----------------

I suppose he wants to disect and biopsy the eye when it is removed as well. I'm sure that this is probably going to be the only way or him to get to nitty gritty about what this is and why it happened.

So, it looks as though you are at a very important juncture in your treatment of Marty. It seems that you have some serious thinking to do about what you going to do. I wish you MUCH luck and i'm sure you will do the right thing.

Just remember, whatever happens, you've done your absolute very best for him that you can. :heart

Paul

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Guest funnyhead

humm sorry to hear all your trouble with your little friend marty...maybe he needs a girlfriend... :crp bad joke, but from what im reading about moores is that they are very sensetive babies, all the moores i have had in my tank ended up with some fungus infection, i have somewhat of a problem with my water, nasty country water, after a while and good filtration they survive, < if i dont pull some half a## mistake> i really hope marty is ok and survives this, they are half blind and bumpies alot....i really do hope he gets better! hugs

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Hammilton, I'm so sorry to hear the news is not getting better! I can;t take my eyes off your gallery though, your Moor's tail is just...it's like a ballroom gown. By far you have the Moor with the prettiest tail. I'm praying for you and your Moor to pull through, best best hopes to you two.

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Guest hamilton9

I missed Garcia this week but left a message (he's only in Mon and Wed). I also have to call Dr H tomorrow to find out if I should continue with the Baytril until it's all gone. Don't know if it's a reaction or not but Marty's still sitting still for long periods of time. He still hunts food with gusto, tho! Now that I'm feeding him the peas with chopsticks, he swims to the top more often than before. But sometimes I have to stick my whole arm into the tank to get the pea to him. (I know this is not good fishkeeping...)

I think the cortisone helped as the eye doesn't flop around like a water balloon anymore (tho it's still quite large and pimply). There even appears to be pimply areas on top of his head, between the eyes. The other eye looks scratched up but I don't know how it got this way. The droopy inner lip is still there. The tail appears better, no more blisters or bloody spots.

I won't know what I'll do until I talk to Dr Garcia. Sounds like the hospital is very close to where I live so this is a real possibility at least for a second opinion if nothing else.

The comments from everyone have been so helpful. I'm deeply touched by all the warm thoughts.

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Just to let you know that I am still sitting here with my fingers crossed for both you and Marty. Goodluck. I so want this to be a success story!!

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Guest hamilton9

Have an appt with Garcia tomorrow morning so we'll see what he says. Problem is he's on vacation next week and he gets back when I have to go to NY to take care of my mother! I'll see what they say tomorrow. Marty's not looking so good. Eye got bigger and wobbly again. He's still eating but gets tired easily. There are ugly bumps showing up (beneath the skin) between the eyes (where the brain should be, I'd imagine). I just don't know if he'd survive a surgery at this point... Maybe there's still a chance to remove and examine the eye in order to save the rest of him. I just don't know who to trust :(

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Hopefully Dr Garcia will be able to help. Please post back as soon as you know and i'm with Diva (and everybody else) - I pray Marty heals soon (and then you can relax and enjoy him) and the outcome to his illness is a great success :heart

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Hear! Hear! Please try your best to obtain a resolution. I really don't think Marty can carry on like this indefinitely. All our positive energies and best wishes are coming your way. :)

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Latest findings -- Met Dr Garcia and recited Marty's history. He has not seen the photos online but said he glanced through the forum notes. He has treated a smaller fantail once before but never a moor. He has removed eyes from koi and was confident the procedure is the same with Marty. The procedure would take 2 weeks and cost $1000.

He said the lethargy could be from protein loss through the eye. Prognosis is guarded even if tumor was benign. Procedure would cover histopathology of the eye but results could still be iffy. He said cytology reports for dogs and cats are equally vague at times so the Georgia lab results from Marty's eye was not abnormal. He would need me to provide three tubs with air pumps -- 1) induction waterbath with anesthesia MS222 60-100 mg/L, 2) maintenance waterbath with 50 mg/L and 3) a third tub/tank with Marty's usual tank water for recovery.

Garcia also gave me instructions should the eye begin to detach before surgery. (He said use bio-bandage first and then liquid bandage to stop bleeding in small areas.) Surgery is scheduled for 6/27 which is when Garcia returns from vacation (I leave for NY on the 28th). I've scheduled the surgery just to hold the date but have put a call into Dr Hildreth in Orange County.

In my confusion I also didn't ask Garcia if we should have given Marty another shot of Baytril and drained the eye a bit. Now he's on lunch and back in 2 hours. I can't believe I didn't think to ask him this when I was there. Fortunately, they are close by and Marty's beginning to swim around again despite all this handling. This is really so frustrating and unsettling. I feel like I'm either missing opportunities or I'm needlessly stressing him out because ultimately it's just an experiment to all these vets.

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If this were your fish, what would you do? 1) Wait and see/drain the eye or 2) surgery now or 3) surgery later...? I don't want to sound heartless but I really didn't expect the cost to be so high. Garcia couldn't confirm if removing the eye would "cure" Marty or bring him any relief. Do I take the chance and risk losing him during surgery or let him go naturally?

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Thats quite a toughie. :unsure:

From the outside looking in, I would try for removal and biopsy. That is, if I were able to afford it.

My reason for thinking that is Tamthelittleblackmoors goldfish that she had. It had the same body type and large eye growths. In the end, just before succombing to some internal infection, her moors eye had its lens rolling around in front of the iris. This tells me that whatever the infection is, can be fatal. And I'm not sure that going and getting it drained every so often would be any kind of life for a goldfish to live. The rebound time and lethargy surely can't be a sign that hes feeling good about it. All I know is that he is one heck of a fighter and if thats any indication as to how he would handle the removal, Thats a HUGE plus!

Oh..... I don't know what I would ACTUALLY do unless I were in your situation..... :idont

The eye removal sounds like its expensive. :crp

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I faxed Dr H asking him about his procedure, length of time, availability and costs. He'll be back in the office tomorrow. Garcia said since we're not fighting an infection, a Baytril shot today would be unnecessary. (But those growths between the eyes?!) Unless Dr H gives me a different story (or speeds up the surgery date), I'll have until 6/27 to see how Marty progresses and be able to decide by then... I think.

There is also the possibility of shipping Marty to Doc Johnson as originally planned (except I have to find someone who can ship him for me) plus dealing with the small window of time before I leave for NY.

Yes, I'm so grateful that Marty's hanging in there despite all these intrusions. However, I felt his eye today and it was squishy like a paper lantern (not like before where it felt like Jell-O). If it were made of paper, I would say it felt "crinkly." The other eye feels firm. He's still eating, thankfully.

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Guest Phreno

Honestly, I don't think I could live with putting a fish through that much stress. But whatever decision you make, I'm sure it's the right one.

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It's a pity Doc J doesn't work closer.

I don't know if this would help much but i'd be happy to donate to the "Save Marty Fund" - AUD$80 converts to about US$105. But still $900 is a lot to come up with :(

But I'm serious - let me know if you want to go ahead and i'll transfer into any fund you choose.

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I'm willing to chip in at least $20... unfortunately, any more than that would have to wait till next payday (June 17) at which point I can donate another $20!!

I can definitely paypal it, if you PM me with your email :exactly

YAY for a Save Marty Fund! :heart:heart AWESOME idea, Jen!!

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Jen, I'm sorry but you got the exchange rate the other way round. :( AUD80 is like USD61. USD100=AUD130. Sorry.

H, I know we talk alot about helping fish and doing everything we can to save them but $1000 is a lot of money. I don't know your circumstances so I can't say whether this is out of your reach. From my point of view, I really can't justify spending $1000 without any guarantee of success. :( From a certain perspective, you can do a lot of good with that $1000.

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WOW! A thousand dollars? That sounds like its a little too expensive for the procedure. I mean, I know these are trained proffesionals but were only talking about two people running anesthesia and cutting away at the eye and staunching the bloodflow. It probably wouldn't take much more than 20-30 minutes tops. I realize theres more to it than that but a thousand dollars? It doesn't seem right. :crp

Sorry for the rant but I am still quite shocked at the sticker price for removal of one little (well, okay, big) eyeball on a fish. Does that even include biopsy of the eyeball after removal? :huh:

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