Black Moor: Eye About To Burst, Tumor?

[Diva]

Thanks toothless. My god you have done your research! Just makes me learn how complex fish really are.

Wondering how the poor sick moor is?

[Guest hamilton9]

Toothless/JenW -- That is indeed amazing research. The description of cells in the formation of a rosette sounded close. But I don't think I understood much of the article. I heard most tumors must be removed (eek, what to do???). I will try to push for a shot (Baytril?) from a vet. Would most vets have this or can get it? The exotic vet is out all week until Friday... and no word from koicrisis. I wish I could ship him to Sydney... I hate to say this but I have low expectations from the local vets. I will keep pushing them. I'm sure I can effectively convey my desperation at this point.

There are still some shape changes to the left eye but not the angry red "pimple" like before. Indeed, the extra folds around the base of the eye allows the continual expansion of this entire body part.

I cannot see the brown mass inside now as the eye is almost completely brown/black. The tail has developed translucent pockets of blood...it definitely looks like something out of a horror movie. I don't know if Maracyn2 caused this or not. I've added a tsp of epsom to help drain it. He seems "happy" enough but my heart is breaking.

Diva -- those are lovely photos. Looks like a Marty-clone! One difference is your Moor doesn't have that extra fold of skin around the eyes. And, of course, your Moor looks exceptionally healthy (and very very cute!). It made me fantasize that things could go back to normal.

All of you have been so wonderful. I really appreciate all the caring thoughts and comments.

[toothless]

I think the rosette formation, from my understanding of it, is more on a microscopic level. The photos accompanying these descriptions are all from cross sections of tumors and growths on a microscope slide. so, I wasn't too fond of that as a possibility.

I think the main thing you should be asking from the exotics vet first is a culture and sensetivity. He might not be able to get a culture from the infection in the eyes (or maybe he can) but he should have no problem whatsoever getting a culture from the blisters on his tail. Then, the sensetivity can be run in the petri dish for what injectable med will kill the bacteria the most efficiently. Oh, about the blisters on his tail, be prepared for another episode of his tail falling apart. These blisters are a sure sign that its going to happen again (unless it can be halted with meds very soon).

Baytril, along with many other injectables are usually readily available at the vets office.

Keep us posted!

[Diva]

Hamilton.............My heart really goes out to you. I cant imagine the horror and stress this is causing you, you must be so concerned. I can imagine how helpless you feel.

Thanks for the feedback on my little fishy, lets hope and pray your fish returns to how he was in the earlier photos.

It breaks my heart to see your fish in the latter photos. I am thinking positive vibes constantly in hope that something positive can arrive from this.

Best of luck. we are all rooting for your little fish. And the people here, who know so much more than I do are second to none in their dedication. This site and the wonderful people here have got me through so much with success. Lets hope success is coming your way also.

AGAIN I hope things will look brighter for you. He is certainly a fighter!!

[Guest Phreno]

Ack, that makes me sad. I hope your fish gets better. I hope it's not in any physical discomfort....

[captk]

Hamilton, I managed to get Doc Johnson to have a look at your fish problem. I can't transplant all the posts over but I did provide the important background info + pics. Here is his reply;

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Urrrr - wow! That fish had enormous eyes.

I would wager that, being that huge they've suffered quite a few (chronic) contusions, abrasions, etc.

I would also wager that (as trauma to the eye(s) can often do) that the fish has two problems: Glaucoma (closed angle) and probably corneal scarification (from chronic abrasion.

When an eye gets "thumped" once or twice, good - blood is liberated into the globe, and this debris (plus the lens or parts thereof) can move into the angle of the eye in front of the iris - blocking the EXIT of fluid. This causes glaucoma. The eyes merely continue to enlarge. The larger they get, the more they rub on stuff (especially if sight is lost) and this chronic rubbing causes neovascularization --> and then deposition of melanin (scar tissue for the cornea)

I would wager that. AT BEST the fish is Light-Dark sensitive but not given to safe navigation. I am SURE he finds food as all blind fish do. (There's a congenital defect that causes the absence of eyes) and those fish do well.

Here's what I am driving at:

The fish is PROBABLY not visual - > Either the glaucoma will have torched the retinas (high pressure destroys the retina in humans and mammals) - or the sheer deposition of "material" ON the cornea will have essentially blinded the fish.

Here's the good news:

Enucleation (removal of eye(s)) in fish - is well taken by the fish and despite what *starts* as hearty bleeding (robust) the fish always have clotted swiftly and done well.

I have never removed BOTH eyes from a fish at the same time. But I suspect that the results would be admirable.

Can you have a sightless fish? Should you keep a sightless fish? Is this a humane thing? Would you want to *be* a blind fish?

Is the fish blind *already*?

Would carrying around a pair of enormous, cumbersome bags of fluid make your visual impairment any happier?

I suggest you consider anesthetizing the fish, and resecting one eye. Then, when that is done, and the fish is eating again, do the other one. I wouldn't gamble that the hemorrhage from BOTH eyes being resected would be tolerable. So do them sequentially. One - Two.

I still do surgeries in Atlanta at no cost. So if you wanted to deport the fish here, I would like to talk to you and get it set up.

I DOUBT that this is a cancer case - because there are other decent and more likely explanations. If you wanted the globes biopsied for cancer, this could be done.

Surgical consult: http://ej.bz

Send nothing until you and I have had *direct* contact.

Best regards

Erik

__________________

Thanks,

Doc Johnson

koivet.com

[chrisinha]

poor little guy

I love moors and telescopes and now im concerned about my 1 inch tele, Jude. I hope she doesnt go through the same thing

Please, let me know what decision you've made about having his eyes removed. not a long time ago i saw a black moor without both eyes (he was attacked by other aggressive fish while shipped to the store). he could find food pretty well despite his condition. i wanted to buy him and set up a tank just for him, but the girl who works at the store took him.

i think removing his eyes might actually be a good option.

good luck!

[Guest hamilton9]

captk -- THANK YOU for getting a hold of Doc Johnson!! That is a lot of info to digest. I've read that some fish do fine without eyes. Marty is definitely bumping his eyes even more than before as his mouth can no longer extend past the enormity of the left eye to suck in food (with difficulty anyway). I believe he is indeed light-dark sensitive as he swims towards the light. I know he can't see the food anymore but he does find it (usually).

I know fish are shipped worldwide. I think I can get the proper packaging to do it correctly. I've had no experience shipping fish nor do I know anyone who's successfully done this with a sick fish. But if this saves him, gives him many more years...I think this is worth trying. I'll have to sleep on it.

How can I get in touch with Doc Johnson? Where can I post my contact info?

This has been an amazing adventure. Thank you all of you!

[captk]

Hi hamilton,

No thanks needed. All part of the service.

You can contact the good Doc via this website; http://ej.bz

There is a lot to consider and being able to talk to Doc J directly will clear this up a whole lot faster. Good luck!

[JenW]

Wow - that's fabulous captk.... you're tops

Hamilton - a great opportunity for poor Marty and all i can say at this time is GOOD LUCK, MY FINGERS ARE CROSSED FOR A SPEEDY RECOVERY AND POSITIVE OUTCOME - woo hoo

[captk]

OBTW, Hamiton, Doc only replied today so if you touch base with him ASAP the case will still be fresh in his mind. Please keep us posted. If you have probelm contracting him, I might be able to help. Try the website first. Good luck and fingers, toes, arms and legs are all X'ed for ya!

[Diva]

You are a top bloke captk. A credit to this site. Goodluck Hamilton and marty!!

[chrisinha]

where are you hamilton9?

i saw that your're in Los Angeles area. Not a long time a go I bought all the material necessary to ship a Betta that I bought for my boyfriend who's in NY, but we ended up not doing it because he agreed that I would take better care of the fish than he would. Anyways, I still have everything you would need to ship the fish and would give it to you, no money necessary. I'm just not sure if it's right size of bag since a Black Moor is much bigger than a Betta.

But if you'd rather buy the material, I can give you the e-mail of the person who sells it. You need to have Paypal in order to pay him.

[toothless]

Wow! your set-up with "the man" himself! Right on, CaptK!

I atually learned quite a bit from reading that bit from him. I suppose that the melanin deposits he was speaking of is the overgrowth of skin coloration (matte) is from the constant abrasions and healing of the cornea and/or the outer layer (Did I understand that correctly? )

Good luck with this. Just a little re-assurance in the shipping department; I just recieved a single fry alive and very hungry a few weeks ago. He was shipped overnight and I swear it didn't look like he missed a beat............

Paul

[Guest hamilton9]

Chrisinha - Thank you for your generous offer. Marty is about 8 inches long so any suggestions on what I need to buy to ship him would be great. I'm located in Agoura Hills.

Captk - I went to that site and used their form on the "I want surgery for my fish" page this morning. I only included my email address and haven't heard back yet (but it is Sunday). Should I have given them my phone number? I will probably email them again tomorrow night if I don't hear from them during the day.

The online form was small so I said "black moor big eye removal" hoping that would jog his memory about this case. I mentioned captk and this forum. I do want to speak with him first before shipping Marty anywhere.

The extra fold of skin around the left eye is almost completely stretched out now. It was noticeable before but rather pronounced now -- whenever he shakes his head side to side, this big left eye takes a few seconds to stop moving. I didn't explain that right but the only way to describe it is that it continues to flop around/vibrate, and it throws him off balance a little, sometimes into a little tailspin. The Maracyn2 may have helped his tail. Although most of the white areas are now gone, overall the tail has fewer shreds plus no bloody blisters or raggedly white edges. He continues to eat and swim, doesn't sit on the bottom anymore.

[captk]

Paul, I have contacts over at Koivet.com so I got lucky.

Hamilton, yes, give it a day or two. He is a busy man so it might take a little time to get a response. If nothing happens, I'll try it from my end as well.

[JenW]

Hamilton - just as an aside - that's great news about marty's tail... that was also a real worry. Sounds like your beautiful little guy is fighting it all the way

I can't wait for this to happen, anxious and excited at the same time.... I've looked at marty's pictures so often, it's as if it's happening to one of my little guys

[chrisinha]

Hamilton,

I tried to send you a private message, but i wasnt allowed. Im not sure why, but the bags I have might be too small for Martyr, so, send me an e-mail and I'll tell you what to do:

chris@mezinha.com

Christie

[Guest hamilton9]

Thanks, Christie! Just emailed you with my info. Can't get a hold of Bag Buddies or a strong plastic bag big enough for him. If he just sits at the bottom, he's about 3.5" high with the dorsal fin upright or 2.5" with the fin down... He won't sit still for a measurement >.<

I think I can use the Cool Bubbles styrofoam bucket that I got (as an emergency backup) and can get enough packing materials from work. However, getting the oxygen from vvvv and then driving 35 miles to work... to ship by 3:30pm. Aargh!

Even if I overnighted the Bag Buddies ($26, eek!) I still won't have it until Wed. But according to Doc's email, he will still accept a Thur shipment. Otherwise, I have to wait until Monday, in which case I should have all the proper shipping materials... sigh. I was I was better prepared for this. I think he'll make it till Monday now, hard to tell. Afraid his eye is so sensitive that rough handling during shipment could rupture it.

Unless I come up with a bag solution, I think I'm leaning towards waiting until I have all the right materials, get Doc's feedback on all my concerns, etc.

Does anyone have ideas on bag resources other than vvvv...? Altho I have those sealtight containers... I think the use of bags make it more comfortable and less life-threatening than a hard-sided container? Also, I think there's concern about air pressure building up in flight and that's another reason bags are preferred over plastic containers...? If that's the case, then I'm on the prowl for those bags tomorrow.

JenW -- Thank you so much for continuing to check on him

[chrisinha]

Hi!

I just sent you an e-mail, but now i was thinking... have you tried to get the bag at any LFS?? I'll stop buy my LFS and see if they have a big bag.

[Guest hamilton9]

Haven't tried looking for a large bag yet. I will go tomorrow morning and see what vvvv has. There may be one more LFS in Simi Valley. Nothing else nearby. Would have to head into Woodland Hills. I will also call Christie's contact Dave and see what he has in stock and how soon I can get it.

I just ordered the Bag Buddies from PondRx. Funny thing was that all shipping options increased after I logged in. Despite being a bit peeved about that, I paid $30 for them to overnight it, begged them to include some bags for me, gave them the specifics including Marty's size, etc. I'll call them tomorrow to confirm. Should all get here on Wed.

Doc Johnson said there should be 1" water above the dorsal fin. Those LFS bags are usually small, tall, narrow. Not sure what to do about the bag situation.

For the record if anyone else needs the info in future, both Fedex and UPS will not ship live animals that have not gone through "proper channels" (requirements details online) so it is highly recommended that you say it's perishable lab specimens or something like that. Plus, shipping 15 lbs or so overnight to Georgia by 8 a.m. is about $125.

With the packaging issues still to be worked out plus my work schedule in the way, I'm not sure I'll be able to ship on Wed so if that's the case, I'm hoping next Monday will still be okay. Fingers crossed...

[captk]

That is good progress, Hamilton. I know we all want it done yesterday but be patient. Best to get everything ready and get the job done right the first time.

I would try a couple fo LFS. They should have bigger bags when shipping stocks between stores or when they sell bulky plants. They might not sell larger bags as a stock item but if you explain to them you situation I'm sure they would agrees to sell you a few or maybe even give them to you. Double bag Marty if in doubt. Good luck!

[EatBubbles]

Hi Hamilton,

I've been reading this thread and I just wanna let you know that my fingers & toes are crossed for Marty!! I am in the Los Angeles area, too, so if there's anything I can do just lemme know. I haven't seen any large fish bags around here, either, unfortunately..

[akk0415]

I know this is a useless post for you Hamilton but I just wanted to know I have been following your thread for a couple weeks and you are in my thoughts and prayers. I think everyone that has read this is just dying to hear Marty is ok. If you askme captk is a hero! You are a great person captk!!! :angel

Best of Luck to you guys!!

[Diva]

Doesnt this look like that egg like thing in Marty's eye?

http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...opic=28999&st=0