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Black Moor: Eye About To Burst, Tumor?


Guest hamilton9

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Oh, incidentaly, I have been searching through 100's od photos of different eyeball deformities and whatnot. The closest thing I could find to what is being seen "in" the black moors eye is "atrophy of the iris". I'm not saying that this is indeed what is being seen. However, the differences in goldfish eyes from human eyes are too great to be able to compare like that. For instance:

You ever notice that goldfish cannot dialate their pupils? This means that their iris (a muscle) is stationary and does not contract or protract. This is the reason why fish are slower to adapt to lghting changes (commonly seen as nervousness when the lights are clicked on for the day). The lens is moved forward and backward to focus on things. And because of monocular vision, they can ocus on two things at the same time. Oh, by the way, did I mention that some can even see ultraviolet light?

I recently performd a few intense search sessions on go0gle. I plugged as many words that descrbed what I was seeing on your moors iris and the best luck I had was the words iris and nodule. I found two very similar things to what your seeing. Bussaca nodules and/or koeppe's nodules. Both cause small bubble-like growths to form on the iris and is usually related to other maladies of the eye (much like your moors). Anyway, how about these two images:

koeppes nodules

bussaca nodules

I realize that the chances of this human affliction might not be applicable to fish. But you gotta admit, this is looking very plausable.

I'll be back with more........... ;)

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Guest hamilton9

Thanks for the searches and great images, Paul! The images of the Lisch nodules look similar to what I see in Marty's eye (tho there are more of them in his). Reason I thought it was injury-related was because both eyes (at different times) would fill up with blood. But it wasn't accompanied by swelling so maybe these two incidences (blood and swelling) are not necessarily related...?

No luck with the vet. No one in my vet's office will touch him nor know of anyone who would. They sent me to an exotic animal vet but they wouldn't attempt anything either but are willing to take a look at the photos which I still have to print and send to them. They said anything they would do would be "experimental." I may also contact a University biologist or something as well.

No change since the Maracyn, did a water change and added more salt. Eye continues to grow. I can't believe it has any more skin left. Areas on the outside of the eye continue to change in shape, color and size (more white "cracks" like it will open up in these areas). His tail has started to bleed along the edges again (where a piece broke off) and the bumps (no color) have returned. The bumps sometimes eventually turn into clearish blisters before getting red. I cannot get a good image of the damaged areas of the tail. But I'll have updated eye images soon.

He continues to eat heartily and even swam around today (like he used to) but does sit at the bottom for long periods of time. It's so sad looking at him... wondering if all my late night work at the computer with the lights on in the room contributed to or aggravated his condition...?? (I put a towel around the tank nowadays so it blocks out much of the light.)

Should I attempt any other finrot meds or stick to epsom salt while I hunt for a vet...?

Thank you everyone.

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I really hate to think what internal stress the poor fish is under. :(

If you can get some good updated photos of the eye, I'll see if I can get a fish vet to have a look. I can't promise anything but it is worth a try.

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That's good news captk - i think any help they can get is a bonus :)

I can't help but go continually back to my original gut instinct... That's it's all somehow related. He's lost a fin - while the remaining seem to have both rot and blisters plus in addition to this affliction with his eye, he still shows signs of bacterial problems in his other eye (unless it's related to trauma) ... But i am totally clueless on this one :(

I'm lecturing tomorrow (Sydney Uni) so could drop by the Animal and Veterinary Bioscience dept and see if they could take a look...

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Okay, I was wondering how long it will take for someone to pick that piece of trivia up. ;) Thunderbirds are GO!! :D

Sharp as a needle, Jen, as always. :)

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Lol - hardly captk. Just shows how I spent my youth (tho Gerard looks a lot like Scott - we used to rib him about it as kids. Called him PB, short for puppetboy!) :lol:

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Guest hamilton9

Thank you for checking. No news yet. Have not submitted photos to the exotic animal vet yet. He seems about the same, headed in the same direction (large eye, shredded tail). His other eye is now beginning to swell in the same way as the left (except I can't see if there are any growths).

I've posted latest images to the gallery as well as added some from last year so you can see what his tail used to look like. It wasn't until late last year that all new tail growth lost all color. It made for a very interesting tail but apparently these are sites of infection as it is only here that I see "holes" and tearing, even some blood. The anal fins (?) do not have white trim but these are split rather than ragged and hole-y.

http://www.hamiltonthecat.com/martygallery/index.html

I know the fins are the least of my worries but I'm scared it's an indication that he's doing worse rather than better. You can see in these later images that there are new indentations (white cracks) on the top surface of the left eye. Otherwise, he is still swimming and eating normally.

There is one other thing -- seems to have developed a droopy inner lip. You can see it in some of the images. When he opens his mouth, I can't see anything wrong...???

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Hi. I have a fish identical to yours. Her eyes are huge, always have been. I have never seen them change size though. You can see her on my fish pages. I hope there is nothing wrong with mine, cos her eyes look the same as your fishes eyes!

http://photobucket.com/albums/v610/Diva1/?action=invite

I also had a black moor with one eye developed and the other eye was not telescopic at all. But within a few months his underdeveloped eye grew to be the same size as the other one.

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This is so sad and scary...I'm looking thru the pictures right now and I'm crying... I'm so sorry about your fishy, I really hope he pulls thru. :cry1

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Here's 3 that give a good idea

Oh My GOD. I feel so awful. I could only open the images which seemed to be healthy images.

I feel insensitive. Sorry. Now I can see how tragic and serious this fish looks.

Hope he pulls through. Fish are difficult when unwell. I really hope such a lovely fish makes a full recovery. Goodluck. My fingers remain crossed.

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Diva,

Here's how you get Photobucket to work for your pics:

Go to your thumbnail page. See the URL, TAG and IMG selections under the thumbnails? You'll need to right click on the URL and hit copy.

Then, go to this thread and post a reply. In the reply, you need to go above the window you type in. There, you will see a button that says "http://". Click on that button. You will get a little window that pops up. right click on the little window that you type in. THen hit paste. Once you hit enter, it will then ask you for the alternate text for the link. In there, you type whatever you like (example- My black moor). Then hit enter again.

You will need to individually paste each URL for the photos you want us to see.

Hope this helps! :)

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Guest hamilton9

Thank you for the kind thoughts. Sorry I can't access those photobucket photos (asks me for a login password). I've sent the 50+ page reference material to the exotic vet. She'll get this on Monday (tomorrow). I also faxed to koicrisis.com but have received no response whatsoever. Have not located a marine biologist yet.

Latest physical changes aside from the tail deteriorating was the formation of a reddish pimple at the top of the left eye (about pea-size). This lasted for 2 days and I thought it would burst but then it went away completely after a water change (May 4). I have not added more salt since the water change. It's at 0.24% salt right now. Bits of tail have been falling off. I just started Maracyn2 again and still feeding Medigold (along with peas and other food since in the past he doesn't seem to do well with only Medigold... feedback on this?). He's still eating and swimming around, actually not sitting at the bottom of the tank as much. These ups and downs are so confusing and frustrating.

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Guest IluvMyBuddy

i've been reading up on what's been going on with hamilton's fish. it's so gorgeous. It made me really sad to go through all those pictures and no results as to what is wrong with the fish yet. Is everything alright now? have you heard anything? i just feel so heartbroken sittig here with no idea as to what happened to your fish... :<

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I hope you get some good information H9. The only feedback I've received so far (and it's a long shot they say because pictures can hide so many things...) is there's a possibility it may be medulloepithelioma which is a very rare ocular tumour. There appears to be leukocoria present in the eye which could be a result of subretinal mass which sits adjacent to the lens capsule. It can appear as a semisolid masses with varying colours (ie. off-white, tan, and brown).

Neoplastic cells can group together in small and large sheets of cells and irregularly shaped, often interconnected streams, cords, and bundles occur.

Another supposition is that it may be retinoblastoma....

They asked me to bring the fish in but I don't think I can pick him up from Sydney.... these are just supposes but i'm hoping your vet can come up with something more concrete :blink:

My fingers as ever are crossed :)

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I think Jen made a good case for medulloepithelioma. I tried to get a fish vet to look into this but he has been too busy. I'm still trying.

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mable11.jpg

bugeyed.jpg

mablechin.jpg

mableeyes.jpg

Thanks for that toothless.

I dont feel this is relevent now. I realise the images I saw of the fish in question were healthy ones. I didnt scroll across to see how sad these images are latterly.

Makes me very sad for the owner. I AM rooting for this lovely fish to regain full health. Never seen anything like this.

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Diva, your moor looks to be the picture of health! And quite the looker to boot! :heart

Okay, i've done a little googling and I found this page: Link about tumors in goldfish eye

So far, this is the ONLY tidbit of info I have been able to find on eye disorders of goldfish, carp or koi. Nothin besides the run of the mill popeye and stuff........ :)

I have also yet to find a single picture that closely resembles anything like what we see here. None of the 100's (maybe more than a thousand?) of pictures that I have veiwed have had ANYTHING as uniform as the round balls on his iris. I mean NONE at all. It seems that every disorder, malady, infection, whatever, turns out as a mess. So, after MANY long hours of pondering this fish's condition, I think it might go something like this:

(bear in mind that I am basing this on absolutely no experience in optometry whatsoever :rolleyes: )

Consider the long luxuriant growths this goldies has (as with all moors like this type). The fins are long and flowing, the eyes are obviously large (even before the infection set in) and the flap of skin around them. Even the gill flap membrane that protrudes from behind the gill flap is very lush growth. So, we should all be able to agree that everything that is not scaled on this fish grows abnormally lush. Sooooo, I'm thinking that perhaps the balls on the iris are actually epithelial cells of the eyeball that might be extending under the surface and emerging a very short distance from behind the iris. Each of these bubbles might even represent the places that the loose lens was bumping into the atrophied iris. The damage to the iris from the lens hitting it might have caused an opening for the epithelial cells to protrude in a nice even form.

Even if it didn't pan out exactly like the way I hypothesised, theres still the point I made earlier on the color of the balls. I mean, it can't be by chance that these balls are the EXACT same color as the rest of the epithelial tissue of his eyeballs. Not to mention the fact that the balls have only formed on the iris that does not have a lens pressed up to it any longer. This, to me, seems rather obvious now.

This is all centered around the original eye infection. I fully believe that this fish would benefit greatly from an injection of some sort of antibiotic. Of course, a culture and sensetivity would reveal the precise antibiotic needed. Naturally.

Ive got my fins crossed for you......... :heart

Hope this helps. :huh:

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