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Guest hamilton9

Black Moor: Eye About To Burst, Tumor?

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Wow! ok, I misread where you described the egg being different from the round growths in his eye. I still like my idea of fluids pushing through hernias in the iris. And yes, the iris (color) sits in front of the pupil (black opening). But they are in layers with membranes between some and not others. Here's a general diagram of the fish eye:

fish_eye_s.gif

Whatever the "egg" was, it could either be loose between the true cornea and the iris , in the actual retinal cavity or both. and maybe it could waft over into the space up front if the eye is jostled the right way. but, if im not mistaken, there is an actual membrane or muscle that fills the gap between the lens and the iris. This is why I think there is the pressure trying to push through the iris (bubbles).

Either way, this eye is an absolute mess and it may actually come down to it fully rupturing if the proper med is not found and given to him. I would suggest that you find a vet that can give him injections. A culture and sensetivity should be demanded so that it will be a knockout from the get go. If not to treat him now, to look at him if the eye needs removing altogether. Many goldfish live long happy lives with out any eyes at all. With a little special care, all the hurdles can be jumped with ease.

If you can't locate a good fish vet, maybe you can find one that will be willing to have a look at the virtual "TON" of info we can provide you with on injecting fish, medications usually used, techniques, diagrams, printouts, web addresses, the whole kit-kaboodle. And all of it written by the foremost doctors that specialize in goldfish and koi. Maybe being armed with all that info and resources on the web, you will be able to find one that will give it a go.

You know, If I were a vet and examining him, the first thing I would do is put him under anesthesia and examine his retinal cavity with a penlight. Just to see if there was something moving in and around in there. This might just be bacterial in nature but something is niggling in the back of my mind about a possible parasite of some sort. Those darn growths are just screaming "eggs", you know. :blink:

Post back soon! :)

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Ok, I'm back with a new theory..........

Could the "egg" you saw actually be his lens? As a child growing up on shrimpboats, I have dissected 100's (if not thousands) of different fish. Each species has its own lens shape and size in relation to the actual eyeball. If you were to expose the lens to high heat, it clouds over and becomes opaque. If the lens sits to rot in the eyball, it will also turn opaque. do you see where I'm going with this? :huh:

I think this "egg" may actually be the lens of the eye. It most likely pull free of its ligament and muscle that holds it there because of the growing pressure in the eye. Or, it pulled free because of bacterial rot (eye fungus?). Or maybe some other explanaition...

So, did the swelling begin before you saw the "egg"? Or was his eye normal sized (same as the other eye) even when you saw the "egg"? Either way, I still believe you were seeing the lens. Obviously the popeye caused it.

So, methinks I have discovered the source of the white egg. Now to investigate further into the mysterious bubbles forming in his eye................ :unsure:

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Guest squeeker

Hey everyone,

I am unable to see the pictures of the fish in the link provided in the first post. All the images show up as red x's. However, I am very interested... could a few be posted in a different format? I don't think I am the only one having this problem...

Thanks!

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Guest squeeker

WOW.

:thud

I didn't think it would look like that. That's incredible. Never seen anything like it.

The 2 with the white ball in them dont' look so bad... but the other two, well, let's just hope that the poor fish gets better!

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Yeah - makes you wanna cry huh? :(

The 2 with the white were earlier shots then it degenerated into the first and last of the 4.

I hope something can be done for him - i really do :(

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Guest VxShady

I've been keeping up with the thread, though I don't have a clue as to whats going on with the poor little guy. Those pictures are very difficult to look at. I really hope some one can figure it out. Either way it is a learning experience for all of us. Is the Maracyn 1 for parasites?

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Maracyn 1 treats body fungus, fin and tail rot and popeye and i believe their other product Maracide is specifically for parasites.

And I too hope someone can figure it out

Edited by JenW

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Just stumbled onto this thread. Thanks, Jen for the heads up. ;)

I'm pretty sure that Paul is right and the white "egg" is in fact the eye lens. The continue swelling has dislocated it and once it is no longer nourished, it goes opaque. If you want to check this out, just buy a whole fish from the market. Cook it and then search through the eye, you will find a spherical white bead in each eye. :ignore It also means that he has been blinded since the first time you noticed the "egg". It will roll back inside the eye from time to time so you might think that it disappears.

I find the last pic the most disturbing. The little dark bits inside the eye may point to cancerous growth or something straight out of a horror movie. :yikes

I really think that you need to take him to a vet to get it sorted. Possibly by surgerically removing the mass. The sight is definitely lost and a clean removal of the affected eye might be the best outcome.

I do apologise if I'm incorrect but that's how I see the situation. :(

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Hi captk - i'll have to join you guys over at the other hub one day :D

I thought one possibility was spindle cell sarcomas. It can cause capillary hemangioma (basically an abnormally dense collection of dilated small blood vessels). Tumor growth can result in prominent exophthalmia -an extreme case of popeye - but localised to the one eye. But this doesn't explain the brown cells within the eye itself :blink:

I just don't know :(

I do agree that a vet would possibly be the only answer at this stage

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You are always welcome, Jen. :D

I don't know either. :( You made a good case for the spindle cell ssarcoma. :) It could be sarcoma or even medulloepithelioma which involve both spindle and epithelial cells but it is very rare. In either case, I would expect more of a semisolid mass and those dark granules just doesn't fit in that picture. Quite troubling. :(

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Guest squeeker

My first thought when looking at those pictures was, what if the eye could just be "amputated"? At this point, I don't see HOW it can go back to normal, and if it continues to swell and build up the brown masses inside, it might rupture completely anyway. Many fish live full lives without an eye.

Just my 2 cents, but I've never seen anything like this, and I've never operated on a fish. I think the best suggestion so far has been to find a fish vet.

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That's an interesting point captk - if it did apply then being congenital a tumor would grow at varying rates since birth. I believe they originate from the forebrain and optic cavity.. Plus, these tumors can develop into many different cellular materials -whereas spindle cell sarcomas appear as one solid mass. Rare yes but not unheard of.....

And you have a point squeeker - the only thing to work out is what's feeding it. It may well have it's own blood supply so you'd need to do an exploratory - not an easy thing with a small fish... I almost wonder if rupturing might not just save it?

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Jen, that was one of the first point I made back on the other board. If it is a tumor, it is quite advanced and any tumor that advanced would have its own blood supply which will make any intervention that much more of a challenge. :(

BTW, how old is the fish? Tumors as you described tends to affect younger fish.

If the eye rupture now, it would certainly relieve the pressure built up in there but then again, it is almost an open invitation to secondary infection. A bit of a double edged sword. Not to mention that if it is a tumor, it will still be in there. :(

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I'm not sure how old he is - you see, i'm just assuming he's still quite young.

It's a tough one no? :(

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You bet! Damned if you do and damned if you don't. ;)

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Guest squeeker

Never thought about the whole blood supply complication. It's a good point. Also, the point about secondary infection is a good one... plus the tumor would still be present...

Damned if you do and damned if you don't

Indeed. Poor thing.

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Guest hamilton9

Sorry for no replies. Work has been engulfing me. Nothing new to report. On the 4th day of Maracyn. It seems like the bumps on the tail have dminished but all fin edges are ratty. He is spending more time sitting on the bottom but still eats.

That was an amazing fish eye diagram and definitely very interesting hypotheses, especially the one about the detached lens. I have seen fish eyes (Chinese cuiisine) and actually, the one in Marty's eye reminded me of those white beads. He's had on/off swollen eye (one at a time) ever since I got him. Usually responded with epsom salt. Maracyn2 didn't really seem to do much but perhaps it was so gradual I didn't notice (?)

I am gamed to ask my cat vet about helping me with this so, yes, please send me whatever links or info you can. I'll print out this thread and show her as well. At least she may have the right equipment to diagnose those tiny beads.

The other eye appears to be swelling now as well...Marty's 3.5 yrs old.

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Hi Hamilton - that's great news :D

I think if you print this thread and also, see if you are able to take as many pictures in chronological order as you can - this may be all you need to help build the background for your vet.

My fingers as ever are crossed for you and please, post back soon :)

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Yes, best of luck with the vet! :) Please do not delay and we would really appreciate a detail description of what you find inside the eye. :)

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Gladly :D

Here's pretty much everything I could find for now. I have more but it seems that my links have disappeared somewhere. I'll post more as I find them.

[http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA084]use of antibiotics in ornamental fish aquaria[/url]

Baytril and dosing per fish length (excluding tail)

Injections of antibiotics

Injecting fish

Injecting fish (another page)

Good med list and effects

And a link about popeye

From the links above and your statement that one or both of his eyes have bulged at some point in time or another tells me that this is indeed bacterial related and not from an injury. This means that one or more of his organs is feeling the effects of increased amounts of bacteria. Finding the type of bacteria responsible is going to be the most important thing for your vet to figure out. Culture and sensetivity should be performed ASAP so you can get a successful treatment under way.

Good luck with this. Remember, As stated by several of us, his eye might have to removed if successful treatments aren't found. Luckily, goldies heal rather quick from eye-loss and He will still function well. Heck moors are pretty much blind once they reach that size anyway so the eye is just getting in his way now.

I hope these links help you some. If you have ANY unanswered questions at all, feel free to ask. We will be happy to answer some of the more technical questions you may have.....

Good luck! ;)

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Gawd Toothless - if my fish ever get really sick (hopefully not though) - then i'm coming to you :D

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Hee Hee Hee! :D

I am always eager to help out a fellow goldie keeper in need............ :heart

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That's going to be one expensive consultation, Jen. ;) Can I carry your luggage? Please? :D

Edited by captk

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