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Jikin Bladder Infection? Julian's in Trouble!


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  • Regular Member

Having problems with my Jikin, Julian.

First off, let me say I think there is something wrong with my API test kit. It's 3 years old and the tap water tests at 1.0 Ammonia and 10 Nitrates ! The tank is testing the same as the tap water. I live on an island and the local fish shop doesn't open until tomorrow if I want to have them test my water. But I wanted to post here because he is so sick, so apparently suddenly. Is there anything I can do in the mean time to help? I have API "General Cure" for parasites, API EM Erythromycin, and HealthAid PraziPro on hand.

Ammonia Level(Tank)  1.0

 Nitrite Level(Tank) 0

 Nitrate level(Tank) 10

 Ammonia Level(Tap) 1.0 ?!?

 Nitrite Level(Tap) 0

 Nitrate level(Tap) 10 ?!?

 Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7.8

 Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7.8

Other Required Info:

 Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API drops

 Water temperature? 72 F

 Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 75 gallons since 8/2018  Tank bottom has a 1/4 inch sand and a few smooth black river stones since setup.

 What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Two Aqua-Clear 70's

 How often do you change the water and how much? Weekly @ 90% (I take water level down to about 6 inches deep--fish remain in tank)

 How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? Yesterday @90% and again Today @ 90%

 How many fish in the tank and their size? 4 Jikin from 3 to 5 inches nose to tail base

 What kind of water additives or conditioners? SeaChem Prime

 What do you feed your fish and how often? Repashy Gold once daily and peas weekly

 Any new fish added to the tank? No, these four have been in the tank since they were fry.

 Any medications added to the tank? No

 List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank.Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. None so far

 Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?   When I look at the photo against the background of the black river stone, I can see what I think is "pineconing"

 Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? Two days ago I woke to find Julian floating at the top of the tank. Since he does this occasionally for up to 20 minutes at a time, I didn't worry. Then he sank and has remained on his back, not eating, not moving except for a couple attempts to move a bit. He is noticeably paler, seems to be breathing normally. He even seems to move his eyes to look at me when my face is by the tank. All the other fish are fine and eating.

Julian.jpg

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  • Helper

Your test might not be wrong, or could actually be that the water on the island is throwing that ammonia. Your fish’s appearance is not inconsistent with ammonia poisoning, sadly.

 

Taking it to the fish shop to verify is your next step, but if you have bottled water you can also do a test. Test the ammonia level of the bottled water, then cut the water 50% with tap water. The bottled water should show zero ammonia and the diluted tank water should shower .25-.5 ammonia, depending on the accuracy of the test. If you’re getting varied readings, it isn’t your test kit.

 

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THANKS for your quick reply!

Sure enough. My bottled water IS Ammonia = 0.  50/50 = 0.5 ish.

I've placed Julian in a QT tank with bottled water at 72 degrees with an airstone.[Because of hurricanes, we keep a stash]

I also put a fair dose of Seachem Prime in the main tank to neutralize the ammonia.

What next?

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So, look up a chemical filtration additive called Purigen from Seachem. That’s a good option, as is adding plants and increasing agitation for better oxygen exchange, on top of the prime. But ultimately you need a better water source. If you’re going to use distilled or bottled you MUST add back in trace minerals to it or it will harm your fish.

 

https://www.seachem.com/purigen.php
 

https://www.seachem.com/fresh-trace.php
 

Prime is going to be your friend as well, but don’t overdose that or it can be toxic on its own (I managed to poison some fish in quarantine on accident because I didn’t measure Pure carefully, which is the powdered concentrate version of Prime).

Deoending on which way you go we have some options, but I’d say a combo of Purigen, Prime, and distilled water cutting the tap water is your most stable approach.

 

Some fish are just much more sensitive to water quality than others, I believe you found yours. 

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Again, thank you.

I happen to have a bag of Purigen in my "Emergency Kit" that's good for 100 gallons so I installed it in one of the 75 gal. tank's filters and will test tomorrow. 

I'm going to have to think about my water. 5 gallons of bottled is around $7 and that's around $98 for a water change. Purigen could cut that to some degree. The very worst case is to move my healthy Jikin to the fish store and not have a tank 😭. Apparently, the city now gets its water from Colorado, which is a recent change...

Two questions:

1. Anything else I should do for Julian? I'll change his water daily and watch for changes.

2. The other three Jikin as well as my Betta in her 5 gallon tank and the Amano shrimp in the 3 gallon tank--all with the same water supply--are fine. Shouldn't I see the shrimp dying, given their sensitivity?

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3 minutes ago, D'Oro said:

Again, thank you.

I happen to have a bag of Purigen in my "Emergency Kit" that's good for 100 gallons so I installed it in one of the 75 gal. tank's filters and will test tomorrow. 

I'm going to have to think about my water. 5 gallons of bottled is around $7 and that's around $98 for a water change. Purigen could cut that to some degree. The very worst case is to move my healthy Jikin to the fish store and not have a tank 😭. Apparently, the city now gets its water from Colorado, which is a recent change...

Two questions:

1. Anything else I should do for Julian? I'll change his water daily and watch for changes.

2. The other three Jikin as well as my Betta in her 5 gallon tank and the Amano shrimp in the 3 gallon tank--all with the same water supply--are fine. Shouldn't I see the shrimp dying, given their sensitivity?

Not necessarily, some animals are just hardier than others. Shrimp, it just depends. But that c shape gaping gills paleness is classic ammonia poisoning and nothing else in the form indicated we should suspect a parasite, virus, or infection.

 

your best bet at this point is small, frequent treated tap water changes instead of big ones. Like. 25% every other day or every two days instead of a big weekly one. That, plus prime, bubbles and agitation, and planting heavily if you haven’t already, are all strategies for lowering the toxicity of ammonia that might be more cost effective for you. 

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I'm very grateful for your help.

While I'm working this out with the main tank, Is there anything else I can do for Julien in his QT tank? 

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There isn’t, unfortunately. A mature filter will help process the ammonia, plus prime and you can safely cut about half the water volume with distilled. Don’t do a bunch of water changes and feed lightly, we want to keep his ammonia low and not spike it with waste products.

 

There is a chance he will perk back up and make it, but once they’re curled in a c shape it’s not great odds :(

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Agree. Also, his scales are sticking out. Jikins are known to be incredibly fragile and fall ill and die easily. Poorly bred ones are even more prone to illness. Jikins are supposed to be white fish with red "rorukin" points. Yours looks all orange which indicates poorly bred. You can only wait but if he doesn't improve soon, I would be considering euthanasia.

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Here's the info I can give on the fish for what it's worth:  The breeder, Zhao's Fancies, sent me these fish as part-grown fry without their final color about four years ago. He said that not all will look like the perfect point fish and I understood this going in. All of them have changed to mostly deep gold as they aged. This is the first trouble I've had after almost four years. Ouch!

I do have clove oil and have watched a compassionate aquarist walk through a goldfish euthanasia on YouTube. If things don't look up soon, I will consider it. I'm sort of walking through it in my mind to get used to the idea. It's Julian, after all! Sniff.

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Ah. Bo is a nice guy and I have several fish from him. He does tend to sell some of his smaller lower quality fish at excellent discounts for the non show type keeper. 4-6 years is all I would expect out of most Jikins TBH. They're quite fragile. They don't tolerate poor water quality well and seems he just wasn't able to take the high ammonia and maybe other stress factors. I would just ensure I got water quality together for the rest and make Julian comfortable.

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Thank you for being so nice. The only good thing is that I could be going forward with only 3 fish in the tank, a better stocking ratio. I had actually bought only 3 from Mr. Z, but, being a nice guy, he sent me the four.

I had no idea they have such a short lifespan compared to other goldfish!

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4 minutes ago, D'Oro said:

Thank you for being so nice. The only good thing is that I could be going forward with only 3 fish in the tank, a better stocking ratio. I had actually bought only 3 from Mr. Z, but, being a nice guy, he sent me the four.

I had no idea they have such a short lifespan compared to other goldfish!

Many people I've spoken to that owned and tried to breed these fish gave up due to their longevity and lack of hardiness. They're shaped more like standards, but have lifespans more like fancies. It can throw you for a loop when you see a long bodied fish that doesn't live past the fancy lifespan.

Bo sends me extras sometimes too. My last two orders I got an extra fish in each. Nice of him but as you said - can make a space issue sometimes.

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Argh. Julian is still curled up, pineconey, and now breathing very hard, even with a lot of aeration. He moves a bit once in a while.

When do you know it's time to euthanize?

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When it's a certainty they won't survive and they seem to be suffering its time to euthanize. For Julian, that is probably right about now. The "C" shape is a requiem of the end. Nearly no fish recover once they're in that shape.

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Yes, agreed. If they’re not moving or eating and are stuck curled up it’s time. I’m sorry :(

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The kindness and helpfulness here is much appreciated.

Thanks to the maker of this video (a member here?) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuhJWpdYCLs&t=35s , Julian has very peacefully gone to swim the Great Pond. 

I and Optimus, Tertius, and Minimus will miss you sweet friend!

 

Julian the Jikin

2018 - 2022

GreatPond.jpg

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Going back to the water quality part of this thread, it still puzzles me that my current filtration isn’t taking care of the extra ammonia from my tap water. Maybe the abrupt change simply overwhelmed it?

I installed a Swiss Tropicals 10” x 6” x6” Poret  Sponge Cubelifter filter to add to the filtration. I’d bought it on Zhao’s advice and never used it, so I’m trying it in addition to the current HOBs. It will take a while to colonize, and it’s ugly, but has miles of surface area.

Also added more air stones.

We’ll keep tinkering wit the tank and water.

Should this be moved to a “water” thread?

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So that’s where smaller, more frequent changes are better. Ammonia is metabolized by the denitrifying beneficial bacteria in the filter at a set rate. There is an upper limit, and it’s about .2 ppms of ammonia every forty eight hours, in your average temp and surface area aquarium. More heat, more agitation, more UV, the rate can accelerate a bit. But changing a quarter of the tank’s volume every two days will be better in your situation because it won’t overwhelm the filter’s capacity to process the ammonia nearly as much as a huge water change.

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