Probable FIN ROT - Fish Acting Normal

[rie]

Hi,

I'm a new fish owner --basically these three fish I have are all rescue. The last one I got is a telescope butterfly goldfish (named him Baby Paris).  He's been in my QT since his arrival 02/10 and I put aquarium salt + methylene blue in his tank for 3 days. After that, I put PraziPro for 2 days. I do water change everyday so every time, I added back in the meds lost in the water change. I decided to keep him longer just in case though he's acting normal and super active after the first 3 days. I did notice the jagged tail in the corner (almost unnoticeable) but I thought it would go away since previously he was kept in a display tank with like 15 other goldfish. BP didn't show any other sick symptoms.

02/17 I put another small oranda in his tank (named Tuxedo) but BP got super territorial and kept chasing Tuxedo around. Tuxedo has been in the QT for even longer (a part of another story) and he's super healthy. I was basically just waiting for my custom aquarium to be delivered at this point. 

02/22 I realized that BP's the jagged area in his tail got wider and some fins showed the same symptom. I completely missed this because BP was acting super normal and he's still chasing and nipping Tuxedo around. I decided to separate them both now before Tuxedo got infected (probably already did). I made a 50% water change (this I do daily btw because I don't have a filter) and put aquarium salt + methylene blue in BP's tank AND Tuxedo's tank (although he has no symptoms) 

02/25 The jagged tail/fins didn't get better so I decided to purchase API FIN AND BODY CURE and used it accordingly (I did the math) in BP's 10L tank --that's around 2.7-ish gallon.

02/26 I did only 25% water change + add additional meds + salt 

02/27 I did 50% water change + NO meds + add salt (I am in Jakarta, Indonesia, so I'm 12 hours ahead of you

02/28 I did 50% water change + add additional meds + salt

The jagged tail and fins are still there --I would say it's worse than how they were on 02/22 but the fish remains in great spirit. I handfeed both fish mushed boiled, shelled peas so they recognize my face/fingers and BP happily swims to the surface/edge of the tank whenever I sit down to check on him. Whenever I hover my finger around, he follows it too. Attached are the pics from 02/28. Based on my location, it's not always easy to get specific meds required (the market may offer different meds) but I have Mardel Maracyn coming in 5 working days and I hope that this little fighter can wait.

If you have any experience with this, please please let me know! I need help :/. I'm not sure whatelse I can do.
PS: Tuxedo is great, no sign of jagged tail or fins --greedy as always too!

 

 

Edited February 28 by rie
Adding information

[rie]

Test Results for the Following:

Never did any of the following --I change the water in the morning daily (every 24 hours) and I scoop out poop like maybe 5-8 times a day until 8 PM every day. 
 Ammonia Level(Tank)
 Nitrite Level(Tank)
 Nitrate level(Tank)
 Ammonia Level(Tap)
 Nitrite Level(Tap)
 Nitrate level(Tap)
 Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)
 Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)

Other Required Info:
 Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops?
 Water temperature? 23-24C or 73-75F
 Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? QT, 2.7 gal (10L), 18 days
 What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? No filter
 How often do you change the water and how much? Daily, 50%
 How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? Today (02/28 in the AM), 50%
 How many fish in the tank and their size? 1, around 2.5-4 inch
 What kind of water additives or conditioners? No
 What do you feed your fish and how often? Saki Hikari Balance AND some local brand Darker Than Black (sinking), twice a day. Boiled, deshelled peas on Tuesdays and Fridays
 Any new fish added to the tank? No
 Any medications added to the tank? Salt, PraziPro (the first few days of arrival), API Fin and Body Cure, Methylene Blue (a week ago) 
 List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. In my previous post
 Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? None
 Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? None

[koko]

Is there anyway you can get your water tested. or get a test kit?

I would like to see the tap water you use and the main tank he came from? Ammonia and ph  swings can make the tails split.

If you can get a API freshwater test kit, not the strips those are useless. 

[rie]

Thank you for the suggestion!

Is there anyway you can get your water tested. or get a test kit?
I can try to get them in a few days --the API freshwater test kit is around 60 dollar where I'm at so I did wonder if I need it at all while the fish are all in QTs and I do the water change daily. However, I can get that if it's needed; especially if ammonia and pH swings can make the tails split.

I would like to see the tap water you use and the main tank he came from?
I don't use tap water --it's a 50-50ish mix of well water with some filtrations (no chemical filtrations) and bottled water which already comes with added mineral. I do not have a main tank per se for now. These 3 fish are all in their separate container from the start. The main tank is coming next week --it's being cycled in the store so hopefully when it gets here, there won't be an ammonia crash or a new tank syndrome. At least, I hope it will minimize the risk.

 

Update:
02/29 Baby Paris is still happily swim around and the tail STILL looks jagged but I took even a closer look. I can see that the caudal fins are frayed a bit. BUT, the lower caudal fins underneath (I don't if it's correct) apparently have turned 80% transparent but some black stripes here and there but the fins are there, not sprayed or split -- they're just transparent on the edges. I also checked the dorsal and pectoral fins and they all show the same thing. The outer shape holds but the color is mostly gone near the edges, creating frayed/split illusion. Not sure if the API Fin and Body Cure helps so I did a 50-60% water change and added just some salt this morning my time.

For now, I'm ordering the test kit you suggested and I'll update it here ASAP. 

[hannah]

The white/ transparent edges look like fin regrowth to me. He doesn’t look in bad shape. 

[rie]

 

The test kit got here so fast and I did the test this afternoon. Approximately 10 hours after the morning water change. My main tank is coming next Monday! So fingers crossed this issue has gone away before that.

Here's the future tank:

Update:
03/01 I did 50% water change around 08.00 AM in Jakarta and I did the complete test with API Freshwater Test Kit around 0530 PM.
Here's the result:
Baby Paris's container
Note: BP size is around 3.5 inch
Ammonia Level: 1 ppm
Nitrite Level: 0.25 ppm
Nitrate level: 10 ppm
Ph Level, container (a mix between bottled water and well water): 8.0
Ph Level, bottled water: 8.8 (not sure why it's that high!) 
Ph Level. well: 6.8 >> so I probably do better using my well water with some crushed corals in the filter for my main tank later?

I did a 25% water change around 0900 PM and I took another measurement of the ammonia level: 0.25 ppm on 03/01 @ 09.00PM. I have a heater on today, set for 24.5C or 76F. It seems high but the normal water temperature in Jakarta is already around, on average, 22C or 71.6F all year round. We do have 5 months of rainy season but the temperature would probably around 20C or 68F at the lowest. I assume most fish bred here adapt to that for generations. Many local aquarists suggested that for fin rot treatment somehow but I started to suspect that this may not be fin rot so I turned the heater off for tonight. 

Thank you everyone! Hope this data helps to figure out what I should do next or if that frayed tails are concerning.

Here's Baby Paris 02/25:

1 hour ago, hannah said:

The white/ transparent edges look like fin regrowth to me. He doesn’t look in bad shape. 

Thanks, Hannah! I certainly hope that's the case. 

[koko]

1 hour ago, rie said:

 

The test kit got here so fast and I did the test this afternoon. Approximately 10 hours after the morning water change. My main tank is coming next Monday! So fingers crossed this issue has gone away before that.

Here's the future tank:

 

Thats a very nice tank. I just worry with not top on. Goldfish can and will jump in the water conditions aren't right. So keep an eye out

 

1 hour ago, rie said:

Update:
03/01 I did 50% water change around 08.00 AM in Jakarta and I did the complete test with API Freshwater Test Kit around 0530 PM.
Here's the result:
Baby Paris's container
Note: BP size is around 3.5 inch
Ammonia Level: 1 ppm
Nitrite Level: 0.25 ppm
Nitrate level: 10 ppm
Ph Level, container (a mix between bottled water and well water): 8.0
Ph Level, bottled water: 8.8 (not sure why it's that high!) 
Ph Level. well: 6.8 >> so I probably do better using my well water with some crushed corals in the filter for my main tank later?

@Arctic Mama or @mjfromga I not sure how to do the Well water with Bottle water guys.... Sorry Trying to get some members that are better at the water well thing than me to help you

So your Ph needs to be figured out hun. With bottle at 8.8 and the well at 6.8 Im sure it might be going into ph swings....

Can you test the QT tank for us

 

1 hour ago, rie said:

I did a 25% water change around 0900 PM and I took another measurement of the ammonia level: 0.25 ppm on 03/01 @ 09.00PM. I have a heater on today, set for 24.5C or 76F. It seems high but the normal water temperature in Jakarta is already around, on average, 22C or 71.6F all year round. We do have 5 months of rainy season but the temperature would probably around 20C or 68F at the lowest. I assume most fish bred here adapt to that for generations. Many local aquarists suggested that for fin rot treatment somehow but I started to suspect that this may not be fin rot so I turned the heater off for tonight. 

Thank you everyone! Hope this data helps to figure out what I should do next or if that frayed tails are concerning.

Here's Baby Paris 02/25:

Thanks, Hannah! I certainly hope that's the case. 

You dont need a heater for goldfish. I have had mine in the 40 gallon tank with out a heater for about 4 years. The only time they really need a heater is when they are sick and the treatment needs it. Other than that dont use the heater, they dont have heaters in nature lol.....

 

I would check your nitrites too, If its above 1.0ppm you will need to change the water. If the ammonia is above .50ppm do a water change. I would change out 50% of the water when this happens. Let the tank catch back up (24hours) then if you need to change again do another 50%.... 

Ammonia can burn the fish and the nitrites can poison them... 😮 

[rie]

9 minutes ago, koko said:

So your Ph needs to be figured out hun. With bottle at 8.8 and the well at 6.8 Im sure it might be going into ph swings....

Can you test the QT tank for us

So I don't really have a tank for now --not until the main tank gets here next week on Monday. This container is Baby Paris' tank from the first I got him in mid February. I mix the well water and bottled water (gallon size) in a big bucket and put two aerators in them 24/7 before I use them in the water change.

 

11 minutes ago, koko said:

You dont need a heater for goldfish. I have had mine in the 40 gallon tank with out a heater for about 4 years. The only time they really need a heater is when they are sick and the treatment needs it. Other than that dont use the heater, they dont have heaters in nature lol.....

Ah. Got it :). I put the heater because I still thought this is fin rot and some local aquarists suggested it with methylene blue + salt. Now I'm not so sure anymore if fin rot is the case or if I even have an actual concern beside the water perimeters.

Thank you for all the suggestions! I may have to change their water twice a day and see if that helps with the frayed tails/caudal fins.

[rie]

31 minutes ago, koko said:

I would check your nitrites too, If its above 1.0ppm you will need to change the water. If the ammonia is above .50ppm do a water change. I would change out 50% of the water when this happens. Let the tank catch back up (24hours) then if you need to change again do another 50%.... 

Ammonia can burn the fish and the nitrites can poison them... 😮 

So this is a bit crazy and off the original post. I checked the other container I have. Artemis, my oranda, has been with me since the end of December 2021 and she suffered from gill flukes and some anchor worms. She lived in an outdoor pond without filtration, plants, or enough aeration. When I took her --it's either me or she died-- I had some issues with my financial so I couldn't have an actual filter and or tank. 

I cured her from the gill flukes and anchor worms somehow and she lived/is currently living in a 15L plastic container. I also do the water change daily. Today I tested the perimeters in the PM AFTER 10 hours of water change in the morning and here's my result:

Artemis' container
Note: Artemis size is around 6.5-7 inch
Ammonia Level: 4 ppm
Nitrite Level: 1 ppm
Nitrate level: 20 ppm
Ph Level, container (a mix between bottled water and well water): 8.0
Ph Level, bottled water: 8.8 (not sure why it's that high!) 
Ph Level. well: 6.8 

I know that this is way off the charts. Artemis is SUPER active, swims around, is very greedy, never seems to be lethargic, and doesn't really have any ammonia burn on her body/fins. She DOES have 5-6 black spots (like a Dalmatian) on her scales/tails but I thought they're always there since the start. I guess it's been like this since December because I only change the water ONCE a day.

Obviously I changed the water after I tested the water today (03/01 @ 06.00PM). It seems like I have to do AM and PM water change. After the 50% water change, the ammonia is down to between 1-2 ppm (I can't decide).

Here's Artemis on 02/07/22:

Don't be alarmed with her white spots on the sides of her body. It's a weird coloration but it seems like it's just her scales. It's been there since I got her in mid December 2021. With my tank coming on Monday, should I purchase any chemicals for the containers now to at least calm the ammonia down? I will keep doing water changes too of course.

Thank you! 

Edited March 1 by rie
Adding information

[koko]

Yeah 4ppm is well high 😮 You are doing good for keeping an eye on that ammonia. That nitrite is going to be a killer if it keeps going up..1ppm is the max you want to go.

Can you get Prime? ITs a water conditioner for ammonia, nitrites and helps eliminate Chlorine in the water. Also I would find some Salt.... You are going to look for Salt that has nothing but salt. Pickling salt normally is just plane salt or you can find Aquarium salt but its generally more expensive.

I would also see if you can get API General Cure or PraziPro.... Generally we do a QT with Prazi to kill any kind of bugs on and inside the fish. General Cure has the Prazi and Metro (anitbioatic). 

[koko]

11 hours ago, hannah said:

The white/ transparent edges look like fin regrowth to me. He doesn’t look in bad shape. 

I would have to agree, but that ammonia and the ph need to be addressed... Thank you. I wasn't see tears in the fins either, just more clear growth. Most likely this fish is going to change color.... I would think it will go white and orange. 

[Arctic Mama]

So we are asking about the water? You’d want to buffer it with minerals, mixing well with bottled, just to help stability. Crushed coral, limestone, sodium bicarb, all good choices. Your biggest issue is definitely the ammonia and smaller, more frequent water changes should help with that without swinging the parameters too much. 

[rie]

@koko Thank you! I was worried about the fins/tails situation but what you said makes a lot more sense. BP is still active as per now like nothing happens. 

@Arctic Mama  I will try to do smaller, more frequent water changes to keep the ammonia down. Per your experience, should I just use 100% well water buffered with minerals?  

Thanks to both of you! I'll update again once the main tank is here. Last question, any advice about how to reduce the nipping by the bigger fish to the smaller ones? Should I put the two smaller fish first to the tank so the bigger one feels less territorial?

[rie]

12 hours ago, koko said:

Can you get Prime? ITs a water conditioner for ammonia, nitrites and helps eliminate Chlorine in the water. Also I would find some Salt.... You are going to look for Salt that has nothing but salt. Pickling salt normally is just plane salt or you can find Aquarium salt but its generally more expensive.

Ah yes, I can get PRIME. I planned to get it after my main tank gets here but I'll get it now. I do have some aquarium salt here. As well as PraziPro. The API General Cure is on its way. As well as Metroplex and Kanaplex. 

[hannah]

7 hours ago, koko said:

I would have to agree, but that ammonia and the ph need to be addressed... Thank you. I wasn't see tears in the fins either, just more clear growth. Most likely this fish is going to change color.... I would think it will go white and orange. 

I read over the thread wayyy too quickly… sorry!

[Arctic Mama]

20 hours ago, rie said:

@koko Thank you! I was worried about the fins/tails situation but what you said makes a lot more sense. BP is still active as per now like nothing happens. 

@Arctic Mama  I will try to do smaller, more frequent water changes to keep the ammonia down. Per your experience, should I just use 100% well water buffered with minerals?  

Thanks to both of you! I'll update again once the main tank is here. Last question, any advice about how to reduce the nipping by the bigger fish to the smaller ones? Should I put the two smaller fish first to the tank so the bigger one feels less territorial?

 

Honestly I would. You want a stable pH, it’s low but it’s not stupid low, so I think with the natural increase in pH that will come with use of sodium bicarb you’ll be fine.

[mjfromga]

I do see minor fin rot that is trying to heal. Keep the water clean and the salt in... and he should recover with time.

Artemis doesn't look healthy either though. She's way too thin. And her gills may be inflamed or something too... though that may be just because she is thin. And definitely gotta get her ammonia in check. She'll die if it stays that high.

[rie]

11 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

 

Honestly I would. You want a stable pH, it’s low but it’s not stupid low, so I think with the natural increase in pH that will come with use of sodium bicarb you’ll be fine.

Got it! Thank you! I'll do that for the main tank as I plan to use my well water 100%. For now, I will use/combine the well and bottled water. At least until Monday!
 

8 hours ago, mjfromga said:

I do see minor fin rot that is trying to heal. Keep the water clean and the salt in... and he should recover with time.

Ah. Noted! I'll keep the salt in for the rest of the week then.
 

8 hours ago, mjfromga said:

Artemis doesn't look healthy either though. She's way too thin. And her gills may be inflamed or something too... though that may be just because she is thin. And definitely gotta get her ammonia in check. She'll die if it stays that high.

Oh no! These three are my first goldfish and I thought Artemis's stomach is fat \o/. I will definitely up her food intake once this ammonia issue is handled. I am keeping a close eye on it --doing that small water changes every 6-7 hours now to reduce the ammonia and nitrites, also to balance the pH as suggested. As per today, the pH finally reached 7,4-7,6, ammonia 1 ppm, nitrites 0.5 ppm. Still not ideal but that's way better than before. 

I have another water change in a few hours and then another big one in the morning Jakarta time after 8 hours (I let them rest in the dark for 8 hours every night). Hopefully this will keep the ammonia at bay :(. 

Thank you everyone for the input! It's Thursday night in Jakarta and I have 3 more days until the main tank is here <3. I know I have to check the cycle --the store said it will do it for me but I'll double check. 
 

Edited March 3 by rie
Adding information

[mjfromga]

@rie

So since you're new to fancies, I figured to add this to help you too. This is my sweet Diamond for example. She is an Oranda just like Artemis.

In a healthy well fed fancy type, we want a roundness to them when viewed from the top. Not TOO MUCH to where they look like golf balls... but more like eggs. This goes especially for female goldfish. 

Little more food and maybe an internal parasite treatment and Artemis should be right as rain.

[rie]

1 minute ago, mjfromga said:

@rie

So since you're new to fancies, I figured to add this to help you too. This is my sweet Diamond for example. She is an Oranda just like Artemis.

In a healthy well fed fancy type, we want a roundness to them when viewed from the top. Not TOO MUCH to where they look like golf balls... but more like eggs. This goes especially for female goldfish. 

Little more food and maybe an internal parasite treatment and Artemis should be right as rain.

Diamond is beautiful <3! Also, I see what you meant better now! As for the internal parasites treatment, I have PraziPro for now. Is that enough? Other meds I have to have them delivered from the states --a friend is shipping me maracyn, metroplex, kanaplex, general cure, furan 2 in a few days. Anything I should add to that for some future emergency stock? Those can be super expensive to get here and not always available

Thank you!

[mjfromga]

Prazipro is more of an EXTERNAL parasite treatment. Though it can help with some internal types, thats not its main use and it misses the most problem causing ones.

For a broad spectrum INTERNAL treatment, we generally want to use Levamisole or Fenbendazole medicated feed or something similar. Internal parasites need to be attacked internally with a medicated feed or a force fed medicated syringe.

She may not have any internal parasites, but she's thin despite having a good appetite, so it's a good idea.

[rie]

10 hours ago, mjfromga said:

or a broad spectrum INTERNAL treatment, we generally want to use Levamisole or Fenbendazole medicated feed or something similar. Internal parasites need to be attacked internally with a medicated feed or a force fed medicated syringe.

 

Is this one okay to use? It said it has Metronidazole in it. 
Thank you!

[mjfromga]

Hex Shield is good - however NLS stopped making it years ago, so I'm not sure it can be found anywhere.

[rie]

7 hours ago, mjfromga said:

Hex Shield is good - however NLS stopped making it years ago, so I'm not sure it can be found anywhere.

Somehow I can still find a few here! I'm gonna check the expiration date and make sure all is god before I buy. Thank you for the information!

[rie]

On 3/4/2022 at 5:53 PM, mjfromga said:

Hex Shield is good - however NLS stopped making it years ago, so I'm not sure it can be found anywhere.

Update:

Both sellers who claimed they sold it just cancelled my transaction but I find a brand called KEN'S FISH that is selling medicated fish food with METRONIDAZOLE in it. However, this is the ingredients:
 

1. Ingredients: Salmon Meal, Dried Brewer’s Yeast, Soy Flour, Wheat Flour, Oat Flour, Corn Gluten Meal, Dried Spirulina Algae, Garlic, Shrimp Meal, Dried Krill, Fish Oil, Paprika, Lecithin, Vitamin Supplements A, D3, B12, Biotin, Metronidazole, Natural Coloring, Ascorbic Acid (Source Of Vitamin C).
2. Guaranteed Analysis: Crude Protein 45.0% Min., Crude Fat 4.0% Max., Crude Fiber 3.2% Max., Moisture 8.0% Max. All natural ingredients, except for some artificial coloring. No preservatives
    

The direction said to feed the fish 2x a day for 6 days.
I know some of you said that we should avoid giving the fish pellets with lots of fillers and this one seems to be mostly fillers? I tried to soak the pellets as well after I cut them into several parts (it's pretty big) but the center of the pellet itself is super hard; almost like a stone. I don't know if it's worth it. Should I just try to find METRONIDAZOLE in other form and feed it to my fish? Do you know the brand at all and do you think if it's worth trying?

Thank you!