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Breeder recommendation


Lenae98

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I am in love with Shubunkins, watonais and comets. I recently bought a beautiful sky blue and Sanke gold Shubunkin from Blackwater Creek for my small pond. I highly recommend Blackwater creek for customer service and the quality of their stalk. In my opinion their pond variety goldfish surpass their koi in beauty. I will definitely purchase the majority of my stalk from Blackwater Creek Koi Farm next year when we build a larger pond. However they don't as of yet have a couple color variations of goldfish I am looking for and that is a yellow, white or black in one of the above beloved goldfish breeds. I would be grateful if you could direct me to some great breeders of only long bodied pond hardy goldfish as mentioned above.

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Blackwater gives their goldfish weird and gimmicky names and charges ridiculous prices for them. I do not buy pond goldfish but to see them make up names like SANKE GOLDENFISH - PERFECT!!! and charge $1000 for their Koi hybrids that DON'T BREED TRUE is kinda problematic to me, but hey... if there are customers.

I would never get any of my stock from them. And they aren't respected in the Koi world as their Koi are low quality to serious keepers, so I actually agree that the odd goldfish they produce are far better than their Koi. 

Totally black goldfish are hard to find as this color mutation won't really occur in regular goldfish. Generally all black goldfish have to be mixed with another type of fish, typically a Koi or have some fancy goldfish genetics where the mutation has been worked on. It is very uncommon to find standard goldfish in black.

Rain Garden Goldfish used to produce yellow single tailed fish but they've been out of business for years. Its hard to find that brighter colored yellow too. Rarely, you'll see it just amongst regular orange fish. All white goldfish are fairly easy to find anywhere. Even many all orange fish end up turning all white with age. 

You can check your local ads or eBay. For example here's a nearly black "Comet"

https://www.ebay.com/itm/165066096343?hash=item266eb4bed7:g:6rMAAOSwcVhhPOEC

Ugliest goldfish I've ever seen... built like a common pleco in shape and absurdly expensive. But some may like him. It'll be hard to find someone who is breeding for specific colors in standard goldfish. Very few have existed over the years as generally standard goldfish don't have a market since most people are used to paying $1 a piece for them lol. 

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On 9/25/2021 at 3:51 PM, Lenae98 said:

I am in love with Shubunkins, watonais and comets. I recently bought a beautiful sky blue and Sanke gold Shubunkin from Blackwater Creek for my small pond. I highly recommend Blackwater creek for customer service and the quality of their stalk. In my opinion their pond variety goldfish surpass their koi in beauty. I will definitely purchase the majority of my stalk from Blackwater Creek Koi Farm next year when we build a larger pond. However they don't as of yet have a couple color variations of goldfish I am looking for and that is a yellow, white or black in one of the above beloved goldfish breeds. I would be grateful if you could direct me to some great breeders of only long bodied pond hardy goldfish as mentioned above.

Hey there!  I'm also a fan of long bodied fish.

I had not heard of Blackwater Creek, but after checking them out, they do seem to have some beautiful goldfish in unusual colors.  Please post photos of the fish you got from them!  :)  Good to hear they have good customer service.

As for another source, I'd suggest checking out NextDayKoi.  They offer black, white and apricot color goldfish (pure yellow is difficult to find in the USA) and many others.  Their sock changes once a month to every few weeks.  They also offer different fish (goldfish and koi) on their ebay page.  I haven't bought fish from them yet, but I've been watching their website for a long while now. 

Good Luck on your search!

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I have had several personal friends order fancies from Next Day Koi. They had typical imported fish problems - so if you order from there... be sure to quarantine very carefully.

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My issue with next day koi is they don't have a "see what you get" or "odd ball" individual purchase page on their website. I hear they have healthy beautiful fish but I have a small pond and want as much variety of color represented as possible in my fish. Yes, I would prefer to support American goldfish breeders. Unfortunately most of them I have found online specialize only in the fancies. My beautiful Shubunkins, watonais and comets tend to be ignored. Sad really, I feel pond goldfish are a much more sustainable option then koi and just as beautiful. I had high hopes that perhaps rain garden would have something special but see they've closed down. I really like the look of Blue Ridges fish but they only sell wholesale and I'll have to drive more then two hours to reach a dealer. Lol Of course that's what I did to buy my Blackwater Creek Koi Farm shubunkins and it have to say they were well worth it! I will be looking for a true yellow comet or Shubunkin next summer after we build a bigger pond so if you have any leads it would be appreciated. 🙂

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Um . . . NextDayKoi does have "see what you get" individual fish (and group) listings.  Did you check their website?  Let me get that link for you:  https://nextdaykoi.com/koi-fish/goldfish/pond-goldfish/  And remember, they update every few weeks to a month, so if something is low in a category, it will be filled soon enough.

As for Blue Ridge . . . lol . . . they supply NextDayKoi with fish!  I'll get that webpage for you as well:  https://nextdaykoi.com/about/our-suppliers/ 

Hopefully those links help you with your research; you should really explore their website.

As for RainGarden, I've tried Emailing them, I think Koko even tried emailing them, but they give no reply.  On their website, they said "fish will not be available for sale again until late 2020 or early 2021" but that has gone and past.  I'd be (pleasantly) surprised if they came back, and if they did . . . I'd buy a breeding group of their yellow fish!  http://www.raingarden.us/goldfish.htm

Another goldfish supplier that had yellow goldfish (sometimes) was DandyOrandas, but I think they are closed too.  They used to have auctions on weekends, but I keep forgetting to check on the weekend!

There was also a seller on Ebay called lewnews that had Yellows sometimes.  But I haven't checked his listings for several years (except for just now, but I didn't see any yellow fish tonight).

I do have a source for Yellows from a private guy.  He used to sell on GetGills, but I haven't seen him posting there in a while.  I'm hoping to buy from him, once I have my new setup ready.  However, I do have his email.  Send me a PM and I'll give you his info.  Note, I have no idea what his reputation is, but he was nice and very informative when we talked via email. 

Good Luck!

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Dandy Orandas went out of business too. No auctions have been posted for years. He tried to blame Chinese tariffs implemented by Trump, but it's odd that all the other Chinese based fancy goldfish retailers have stayed in business. King Koi. Zhaos Fancies. Coast Gem. Chu Chu Goldfish. Goldfish Island and many more are still doing fine and they are all Chinese importers as well. Actually only HE went out of business amongst all the popular Chinese importers of fancy goldfish. No others did!

What makes more sense is that as other vendors entered a market that he previously had cornered, they simply took tons of his business. With better prices on fish, easier purchasing (not annoying outdated auction style), and better shipping rates... he simply begun to lose customers to other vendors. Finally unable to compete - he went out of business.

At least Rain Garden was able to admit that their goldfish business just wasn't profiting anymore.

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I think Dandy Oranda is still in business but is only selling repashy food. But yes all of these other vendors are still importing chinese fish so why not him... Try to contact Gary Hater on Facebook. He specializes in fish that you are looking for

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On 9/26/2021 at 8:55 AM, mjfromga said:

Blackwater gives their goldfish weird and gimmicky names and charges ridiculous prices for them. I do not buy pond goldfish but to see them make up names like SANKE GOLDENFISH - PERFECT!!! and charge $1000 for their Koi hybrids that DON'T BREED TRUE is kinda problematic to me, but hey... if there are customers.

I would never get any of my stock from them. And they aren't respected in the Koi world as their Koi are low quality to serious keepers, so I actually agree that the odd goldfish they produce are far better than their Koi. 

Totally black goldfish are hard to find as this color mutation won't really occur in regular goldfish. Generally all black goldfish have to be mixed with another type of fish, typically a Koi or have some fancy goldfish genetics where the mutation has been worked on. It is very uncommon to find standard goldfish in black.

Rain Garden Goldfish used to produce yellow single tailed fish but they've been out of business for years. Its hard to find that brighter colored yellow too. Rarely, you'll see it just amongst regular orange fish. All white goldfish are fairly easy to find anywhere. Even many all orange fish end up turning all white with age. 

You can check your local ads or eBay. For example here's a nearly black "Comet"

https://www.ebay.com/itm/165066096343?hash=item266eb4bed7:g:6rMAAOSwcVhhPOEC

Ugliest goldfish I've ever seen... built like a common pleco in shape and absurdly expensive. But some may like him. It'll be hard to find someone who is breeding for specific colors in standard goldfish. Very few have existed over the years as generally standard goldfish don't have a market since most people are used to paying $1 a piece for them lol. 

I don't mind the gimmicky names on their site. I doubt they have much influence on people's purchases. I would be curious to know where your accusation of koi/goldfish hybrids comes from? It seems you've had a negative experience with Blackwater Creek Koi Farm. All I can attest to is my experience and I have a couple beautiful unique thriving fish. I suppose being new to the hobby that I don't know what show quality goldfish is but I do know what's beautiful and healthy. We agree on their koi but I find what they're doing with their goldfish stalk to be quite remarkable and exciting.

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The colors on the goldfish and the fact that if you breed them, you get regular plain goldfish attest to them having mixed Koi into the line somewhere. I asked them personally and they said that you'll never get anything that looks like the fish you purchased if you breed them.

If it were merely color variations within the variety, you may at least get SOME fish with similar coloring. But you can't, so this, paired with the fact that many of their fish indeed DO have the Sanke type coloring that is really only in Koi, and them being a major Koi distributor, it makes no sense that Koi DNA wasn't mixed in somewhere along the lines. 

Some people who buy the Blackwater goldfish would be very disappointed to learn that they don't breed true or can't be bred at all. This is not something that is revealed upfront. You would need to have asked beforehand. I sort of have an issue with that especially considering the price point of the fish. Thats all.

Everything else aside, people can purchase whatever fish they like. I have never personally bought any fish from them and never will. I don't pay high prices for regular pond type fish and mostly keep fancies anyway. But to each their own.

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8 hours ago, mjfromga said:

The colors on the goldfish and the fact that if you breed them, you get regular plain goldfish attest to them having mixed Koi into the line somewhere. I asked them personally and they said that you'll never get anything that looks like the fish you purchased if you breed them.

If it were merely color variations within the variety, you may at least get SOME fish with similar coloring. But you can't, so this, paired with the fact that many of their fish indeed DO have the Sanke type coloring that is really only in Koi, and them being a major Koi distributor, it makes no sense that Koi DNA wasn't mixed in somewhere along the lines. 

Some people who buy the Blackwater goldfish would be very disappointed to learn that they don't breed true or can't be bred at all. This is not something that is revealed upfront. You would need to have asked beforehand. I sort of have an issue with that especially considering the price point of the fish. Thats all.

Everything else aside, people can purchase whatever fish they like. I have never personally bought any fish from them and never will. I don't pay high prices for regular pond type fish and mostly keep fancies anyway. But to each their own.

I understand that you feel adamant about this but based on everything I've read about koi/goldfish hybrids there are no studies that have shown they can reproduce at all. I'm sure as with most things in nature there are occasional exceptions to the rule but for the most part we would not be talking about breeding true but sterile fish.

Are you suspicious of their entire Shubunkin stalk or just certain color varieties? My confusion comes in that I know the distributor who I received my Blackwater Sanke and sky blue Shubunkin from. In that shipment she had the shubunkins and Sarassas and she had a spawning from that same shipment. The colors are still developing to see if she got any Sankes or sky blue coloration and whether they "bred true" or not, but she definitely has Shubunkin fry and there shouldn't be any Shubunkin fry if these were hybrids. Attached is a picture of the still developing fry. 

Either way I take my recommendations seriously and feel knowing if these are hybrids important information for me to include in future recommendations. I have contacted Blackwater Creek Koi Farm directly regarding the matter and will report back to the group with their response.

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True Koi hybrids will generally have barbels. Most are sterile. Not ALL will be sterile.

https://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/threads/koi-goldfish-hybrids.188053/#js-post-1898216

And again all the fish in that bucket are standard Shubunkins without a trace of the SANKE coloring that the fish they sell have. And it'll always be that way. That's all I was saying. 

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Oh and I was not saying they aren't recommended - rather I have issues with their fish where it concerns the breeding aspect because of the price point. Just wanted to point that out. That's all. If someone still wants to buy the fish knowing that fact - by all means go ahead.

At the end of the day - the main thing is that you will pay $900 for a fish that you will never get any similar fish from... so make sure you know that before you purchase. You will get standard looking fish... from a fish you paid $900 for. I just kinda see an issue with that. In the fancy world - extremely expensive fish are expected to breed at least somewhat true AND meet breed standards set by age old goldfish clubs. So it sits oddly that this isn't the case here. That's LITERALLY my only issue. 

You can pay $5 for a Shubunkin and get what's in that bucket. That blue color is not the color I speak of. It can be found in standard types. It is the SANKE pattern that I speak of specifically. 

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I love the fact that we are having an intelligent conversation where nobody is getting angry or rude.  🥰

I wonder . . . is it possible that the pictured fry (above) will develop Snake coloration?  As we all know, many goldfish gain and lose color as they grow.  Why would that be different for Snake coloration?

 

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3 hours ago, Acro said:

I love the fact that we are having an intelligent conversation where nobody is getting angry or rude.  🥰

I wonder . . . is it possible that the pictured fry (above) will develop Snake coloration?  As we all know, many goldfish gain and lose color as they grow.  Why would that be different for Snake coloration?

 

I only said that because

#1. SANKE is not a natural goldfish color pattern. Again - it belongs to Koi. Outside of Blackwater Creek - this pattern in goldfish does not exist as far as I know. 

#2. Calico coloration in Shubunkins is seen very early on. It doesn't develop the way you speak. It DOES develop, but not to that extent.

#3. Nobody that I have seen had been able to replicate the coloration with breeding. I was quite deep in the Koi world so this was very interesting to me... as normally it wouldn't be THAT hard.

#4. And FINALLY - because of all I saw, I went and ASKED Blackwater Creek, who actually told me that none of the "Sanke Goldenfish" they sell breed true at all.

The Koi genetics being somehow mixed in is merely my surmision and I could be wrong about that for sure - but I definitely am not wrong about the fact that their line of fish don't breed true.

And again - I am ONLY referring to the SANKE pattern coloring. The blue coloring isn't unique to Blackwater and can be found in Shubunkins outside of them.

And I am NOT implying that the fish are unhealthy, dyed, or anything that would make them generally NOT RECOMMENDED. If one is okay with the fact that they don't breed true and the price point - BY ALL MEANS PURCHASE.

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On 10/3/2021 at 8:04 PM, mjfromga said:

I only said that because

#1. SANKE is not a natural goldfish color pattern. Again - it belongs to Koi. Outside of Blackwater Creek - this pattern in goldfish does not exist as far as I know. 

#2. Calico coloration in Shubunkins is seen very early on. It doesn't develop the way you speak. It DOES develop, but not to that extent.

#3. Nobody that I have seen had been able to replicate the coloration with breeding. I was quite deep in the Koi world so this was very interesting to me... as normally it wouldn't be THAT hard.

#4. And FINALLY - because of all I saw, I went and ASKED Blackwater Creek, who actually told me that none of the "Sanke Goldenfish" they sell breed true at all.

The Koi genetics being somehow mixed in is merely my surmision and I could be wrong about that for sure - but I definitely am not wrong about the fact that their line of fish don't breed true.

And again - I am ONLY referring to the SANKE pattern coloring. The blue coloring isn't unique to Blackwater and can be found in Shubunkins outside of them.

And I am NOT implying that the fish are unhealthy, dyed, or anything that would make them generally NOT RECOMMENDED. If one is okay with the fact that they don't breed true and the price point - BY ALL MEANS PURCHASE.

I think not breeding true is on an entirely different level when referring to the ethics of a business then surmising that they are passing off hybrids as goldfish. But now I understand you are coming at this entirely from a breeders perspective. I think we can both agree there are MANY EXQUISITE goldfish on Blackwater Creek Koi Farm's web page that AREN'T labeled Sanke that are WELL below $900 that people can enjoy without concern. 

I am posting pictures of my two goldies that I got from Blackwater. Total they cost my $25 and a 5 hour round trip to their dealer. I am sure they are far from show quality but I find them to be much higher quality in health and looks then the big box stores. I am not much a fan of the small patterned calico highly metallic shubunkins I see at many petco's and petsmart's.  The colors just look a bit muddy to me. What I love about Blackwater Creek is they seem to breed for the larger blocks of color that I personally find attractive but most importantly they're fish seem healthy and thriving. Anyway it's been an engaging debate that I think proves people have different priorities when purchasing fish.

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Wow, lovely fish!  I do like those "larger blocks of color" too, and your fish totally have that!  They look big, maybe I missed it above, but how large are they?

Also, any chance you'd post a picture of your whole pond?  Those plants look great!  About how many more fish can your pond handle?  Are you just looking to add one Black, White and a Yellow?

 

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We are in agreement then! And lovely Shubunkins you have indeed!

Actually the second one looks a lot like one of the babies of my lady Elizabeth. The yellow in these babies came from lemonhead Orandas that she bred with. Just accidental survivors. Love them all the same tho.20211003_130845.thumb.jpg.1b3ebd2c6207919cf006f533eed5d2b0.jpg20211003_130852.thumb.jpg.e459be88d866f9fe2bdbdd4248b04615.jpg

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7 hours ago, Acro said:

Wow, lovely fish!  I do like those "larger blocks of color" too, and your fish totally have that!  They look big, maybe I missed it above, but how large are they?

Also, any chance you'd post a picture of your whole pond?  Those plants look great!  About how many more fish can your pond handle?  Are you just looking to add one Black, White and a Yellow?

 

Hehe Acro are trying to subtly find out if my pond is over stalked? No worries I respect that. Animals well being is always paramount. The blue one is approximately 4 inches, the spotted gal is approximately 5-5.5 inches. They look so large in scale because the water lily is one of the smallest of dwarf varieties. My current pond is maxed out with these two. My pond is just a small perform around 125 gallons but we are planning a larger 15 x 20 pond build next summer. Until then I am just researching where to find them fish I want. Most i will purchase from Blackwater Creek Koi Farm. They have some gorgeous black shubunkins with red heads i am in love with right now but they have no yellows or totally white. I am fond of the Bristol tailed Shubunkins. I've seen some of Gary Hate's ghost Bristol Shubunkins and they are just stunning but they're availability is somewhat limited as I got the sense he focuses mostly on fancies.

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18 hours ago, mjfromga said:

We are in agreement then! And lovely Shubunkins you have indeed!

Actually the second one looks a lot like one of the babies of my lady Elizabeth. The yellow in these babies came from lemonhead Orandas that she bred with. Just accidental survivors. Love them all the same tho.20211003_130845.thumb.jpg.1b3ebd2c6207919cf006f533eed5d2b0.jpg20211003_130852.thumb.jpg.e459be88d866f9fe2bdbdd4248b04615.jpg

Are the pink ones comets or just white shubunkins? Almost no color, very curious!

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13 hours ago, Lenae98 said:

Hehe Acro are trying to subtly find out if my pond is over stalked? No worries I respect that. Animals well being is always paramount. The blue one is approximately 4 inches, the spotted gal is approximately 5-5.5 inches. They look so large in scale because the water lily is one of the smallest of dwarf varieties. My current pond is maxed out with these two. My pond is just a small perform around 125 gallons but we are planning a larger 15 x 20 pond build next summer. Until then I am just researching where to find them fish I want. Most i will purchase from Blackwater Creek Koi Farm. They have some gorgeous black shubunkins with red heads i am in love with right now but they have no yellows or totally white. I am fond of the Bristol tailed Shubunkins. I've seen some of Gary Hate's ghost Bristol Shubunkins and they are just stunning but they're availability is somewhat limited as I got the sense he focuses mostly on fancies.

Nope, not trying to subtly find out if you are over stocked.  If I wanted to ask that, I'd do it outright.  ;)

But I still want to see a full pond photo!  It's been months longer than I had planned, but I am still trying to get my indoor pond system(s) set up and I love seeing what others are working with to get ideas.

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19 minutes ago, Lenae98 said:

Are the pink ones comets or just white shubunkins? Almost no color, very curious!

There is one mostly white fish. He has a blue patch near his tail and totally matte scaling. Comets must be metallic. He is a Shubunkin/Oranda cross. They all are. But single tail genetics are WAY stronger than fancy genetics so when a single tailed females eggs will produce 99% single tailed fish. 

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56 minutes ago, mjfromga said:

There is one mostly white fish. He has a blue patch near his tail and totally matte scaling. Comets must be metallic. He is a Shubunkin/Oranda cross. They all are. But single tail genetics are WAY stronger than fancy genetics so when a single tailed females eggs will produce 99% single tailed fish. 

Lol how does a fancy male even catch up to a single tail female? He's a bit out matched. Nature has her way I suppose.

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25 minutes ago, Lenae98 said:

Lol how does a fancy male even catch up to a single tail female? He's a bit out matched. Nature has her way I suppose.

There are like 5 male fancies out there. She spawned with several. These are the accidental survivors. Their colors just tell me they got some of the lemonhead genes in the pool. 

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