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Eye issues again (a different fish and manifestation)


J.Allen

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hello forum, 

long time no see. I shall spare you the details of the drama, and I humbly request your assistance despite my absence.

Test Results for the Following:

 Ammonia Level(Tank).     0

 Nitrite Level(Tank)    0

 Nitrate level(Tank)  10 ( I have grappled with this since startup over a year ago)

 Ammonia Level(Tap) 0

 Nitrite Level(Tap) 0

 Nitrate level(Tap)0

 Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) PH 7.5      Kh 71.6            Gh 89.5 

 Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)

Other Required Info:

 Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API freshwater + API add on test ( kh gh etc)

 Water temperature? 75F

 Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? running over a year 75 gal + 55 gal sump for an estimated 100 gal of water 

 What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? custom

 How often do you change the water and how much?  one water change weekly roughly 40 Gal

 How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? last week roughly 40 

 How many fish in the tank and their size? 1 large  Thai oranda 2 large telescope eye 4 8 month old telescope eyes ( born here) 

 What kind of water additives or conditioners?  tap water treated with Seachem Prime

 What do you feed your fish and how often? usually feed them repashy super gold  once daily at 8 30 am EST , recently fed peas as replacement 

 Any new fish added to the tank? 

 Any medications added to the tank? 7 tsp of aquarium salt 

 List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank.Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment.

 Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? Noticed a "donut bubble"  of swelling around the eyes, thought it may be due to injury ( had a rock in the aquarium and removed) all other fish are fine, the fishes behavior is normal ,  much like WebMD my reading has not sent my self spiraling out of control. Im thinking A) injury B) Pop eye , but its not the whole eye ? C) kidney and digestive issues causing internal fluid backup D) egg bound? gave a little message but nothing came out...

 Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? Would probably pig out if I fed them but im going to fast them 

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Sorry that is indeed pop eye, or rather dropsy showing up in fluid pressure around the eyes instead of under it. I have a few fish that persistently have this on and off, some are prone to it. But oftentimes there is an underlying infection causing the issue.

Please isolate this fish in a hospital tank and let me know if you see any other behavioral changes over the next two days. Bottom sitting, floating in the current or at the top of the tank, poor appetite, etc.

What meds do you have on hand?

I’m also going to say it - those persistent fluid ring fish? We saw much less of that when we stopped feeding repashy. Something about the gel formula just seems to gunk up the tanks and create biofilms that I think make the fish more prone to illness long term. I’ve seen it in multiple people’s tanks, all with good husbandry practices. It’s infuriating because it’s hard to prove, but I’d consider going back to a good quality pellet when this is done or only feeding repashy once a week or so.

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Thank you for getting back to me today, This news is absolutely heart breaking.

I would be apt to believe that this poor fish is having kidney issues or something since the others Eem relatively fine and historically this fish is the LEAST sensitive to changes.

the fish has a big appetite but I have decided to fast them all today and intended to do so for the next 2 days.

the only medication I currently have is salt if that counts , I had put 7 rounded tablespoons in the tank , 

as I do not know if this is something wrong and infectious should I just treat my whole setup with all fish?

when you say quarantine, do you specifically mean in a separate body of water or will housing this fish in the same water in the sump tank work ?

I am standing by .

thank you again, 

Jordan

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2 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

I’m also going to say it - those persistent fluid ring fish?

could be the way I am reading this but I am uncertain, may I as for clarification?

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but then again , an after thought, I have recently started feeding the fish much less , I was feeding twice a day and was really struggling with the nitrates and gunk , so I cut it down to once a day, I fed them peas one day for good measure, and then this. could the peas had been contaminated?

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22 minutes ago, J.Allen said:

but then again , an after thought, I have recently started feeding the fish much less , I was feeding twice a day and was really struggling with the nitrates and gunk , so I cut it down to once a day, I fed them peas one day for good measure, and then this. could the peas had been contaminated?

Oh no. It likely wasn’t contamination, more likely the gunk in the tank made it easier for an overgrowth of the normal bacterial populations that colonize the tank to overgrow. The other theory involving repashy is that the sludge they cause in filters lowers their performance and stresses the fish with water quality issues like persistent high nitrates. But either way, there seems to be a lot of health issues longer term linked with its use and nobody can exactly figure out why. But after feeding super green on and off for several years I’ve noticed similar problems. Fish that just get sick more frequently, including with persistent fluid eye rings that get more and less swollen off and on for months until the fish finally gets sick enough to show other symptoms. Which may not be what is happening here, given how fast you said this came on it would be dropsy related.

 

my recommendation is to switch to a pellet food and drop the gel, and if you’re going to feed veggies that’s fine too.
 

If no other fish is showing symptoms (which is what you made it sound like) then please move the fish that needs treating to a hospital tank/quarantine so we only medicate the one. And let me know which meds you have on hand :)

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Just now, J.Allen said:

I currently have on hand Salt , what more should I get ?

I also took out a large stone I had in the tank , this probably changed the water flow and bacteria colony , do you think this may have had an effect?

 

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So the rock probably didn’t make much of a difference, I wouldn’t worry. A good knocking out of any gunk in the filter pad, changing food to reduce the sludge, and trying to treat this to narrow down if it is an infection versus organ damage is really all we can do.

you need a broad spectrum gram negative antibiotic, like kanamycin or oxytetracycline. Both are available online and sometimes in physical fish stores if they’re not chains, but a lot of the big chains don’t sell antibiotics at all anymore :(

Here is a link to the oxy online, and I believe they sell Kanamycin as well. 
https://wattleydiscus.com/product/oxytetracycline-hydrochloride-powder/

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Hey AM , 

Thanks for reaching out, I gotta level with you when I got up this morning and saw no reply yet I panicked a little and went to the store and bought some Melafix, as well at Meth Blue, worrying time may be of the essence.

I have begun the melafix treatment  ,but haven't done anything with meth blue, for the whole community since I have no idea what's going on. I was scared that moving to the hospital tank and segregating from friends and sleep buddies might be the straw that breaks the camels back and fully compromise immunity.

my local stores don't have much of a selection which is why I bought what I bought. I did find another store in proximity that has " kanaplex" which I understand to be a nuclear option for the bio filter and will require a hospital tank or will kill all bacteria.

please understand I do not disregard your advice and very much appreciate your time and effort. I just so happen to be in a bit of a " perfect storm " here and am forced to operate in these unique constraints at the time. this is the more upsetting part of the ordeal. 

I ask that if at all possible you might tailor your assistance to what I have readily available. this now consists of  API Aquarium Salt, Meth blue, Melafix, and I may be able to get some of that Kanaplex tomorrow.

please let me know if its possible with these items or if it only the previously mentioned way, or no way.

I am going to hug my tank now for a few minutes, attempt to " charge" the water with love. and wish well my fish friends.

stranger things have happened.

thanks again, for everything.

Jordan

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Generally speaking this is why it is good to have basic meds on hand before an emergency, so if time is really if the essence you have it available and don’t have to wait to ship.

 

The dirty little secret of conditions like dropsy, however, is that if it is moving fast and severe enough to kill your fish within a week or so, the meds would not have helped anyway. You’re already having massive organ failure. That is why I indicated what to order abs asked you about your fish’s behavior and eating/pooping in quarantine, because a few days of observing the fish closely will not make a difference with a fish that can actually be saved and can help tailor treatment and give clues as to what is going on. This is specific to dropsy and a few other particular pathogens, so always comes to us to ask when you see something and we can help you figure out the course of action to take.

 

I have seven children, including a baby and one rehabbing from a massive bilateral hip surgery, and I homeschool my kids. My computer time right now is very limited, apologies on the speed but sometimes it does take me awhile to respond. If it an urgent issue though, you can always @ Koko or @ FishyMandy or another user to get help, too, but if I think it’s fast moving I’ll give advice that covers it like it is.

 

Melafix is useless and if you have the receipt I’d return it. You can dose Kanaplex in the main tank but as I already said this is something that needs a hospital/quarantine tank with just an air stone and heater, anyway. NO FILTERS IN THE HOSPITAL TANK, unless you have brought in new livestock I’m not understanding from your post above, this is not a tank wide infection. ONE fish is showing symptoms that I’d posit are a result of a weakened immune system. So we treat just the one fish and correct the food/husbandry issues to keep the rest healthy in the meantime, okay?

 

Now, for the Kanaplex, I said earlier that was fine - that is Kanamycin. It’s a broad spectrum gram negative antibiotic. Which is what we need :) 

You have not clarified for me, have you removed this fish to a hospital tank setup or bucket? Please clarify, and I’ll give treatment instructions. You are to do nothing with the main tank and treat with no product right now, not even salt. We just need to clean your filters, make sure there isn’t mulm in any substrate, and then change out the repashy for a good pellet like Omega One or Fluval Bug Bites, which cause less organic residue and sludge than the gel foods.

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Hi AM, 

I have the fish in hospital tank . No filter just air stone , 

Fish behavior is somewhat normal, fish seems slightly stressed from transfer.

temperature and PH differences at time of transfer were less than .5 difference

I have the kanaplex as well as API general cure ( suggested to have on hand by fish store owner)

please advise your next recommended steps at your earliest convenience.

- Jordan

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Kanaplex I believe Is one five ml measure scoop per ten gallons of water. The trick with Kana is to keep it in the water and the water quality high. For a big fish in a smaller hospital tank this often means daily me every other day complete water changes. When doing so, please redose the full amount of kanaplex, and continue the treatment for fourteen total days.

 

water warm, 76-78 degrees is good, feed very lightly.

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ok I will add the first dose of kanaplex now.

this box says that I may repeat dosing "every 2 days until symptoms disappear up to a max of 3 doses" - what are your thoughts on this?

also I have overlooked the heater detail. I am in Florida, my daily ambient room/tank temp is around 75, drops down to 73 at night....  should I get a heater?

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Yeah I know what Seachem says; but again if you’re maintaining good water quality you likely won’t be able to stretch it that long between doses. Follow my instructions, we have tried them with kana dozens of times.

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Too low and we don’t want swings, need a heater. Always useful to have on hand too but not necessary in your main tank, just the smaller hospital tank.

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so far , she has been eating in the hospital tank and when I saw it this morning the water was kind of cloudy and she had pooped , I emptied half the 10 gallon tank and mixed in fresh water, then I emptied half of that mix and put in fresh water so im thinking that equals a 75% water change,  I added the dose of kanaplex and fed lightly again , I believe some of the eye swelling has gone down but this may be wishful perception as I do still see a little "pine cone" effect on the scales still.

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You’re going to have to check your water morning and evening and feed lightly, or you’ll be doing twice daily changes. But we need 100% changes in the hospital tank, really. I usually scoop the fish up into a cottage cheese container or something or similar size, empty the whole thing, and then refill and dose with meds. Alternately You can empty it down until the fish is barely covered, refill halfway, and drain down again until fish is barely covered before filling completely and dosing with meds. This can be more stressful for a sick fish though.

 

but yeah, test your water morning and night. If the ammonia crosses .25 ppms it’s time for a complete change and new meds. You don’t need to change the water until that happens though.

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