QT started, quick question about fin rot

[SilverWen]

Just got home from work, did a 50% water change and started prazi-pro treatment on my two new fish...then I noticed a very small white edge to the moor's tail...I've never seen fin rot, so I've no idea if this is just the beginning of it. I have paragard and metroplex on the way - should be here Saturday.  I've attached a picture its the very bottom of the right edge of the caudal fin. No flashing or any signs of distress, he's eating like a pig. It's also really hard to get a good picture 😕  - basically looks like just the tip of the fin is white.

I know these are petstore fish and likely rife with diseases from poor conditions and stress, but other than ordering from an online vender this is the best source I have and I hope with some clean water, preventatives, and time they can be just as good as show fish.

Right now in a 40 gal with a same-size oranda (both about and inch long) - tank is 100% bare bottom except two round stones with anacharis clumps rubber banded to it. They are eating smashed peas today.

The filter in take is wrapped in filter sponge to buffer the current and the plastic itself. There really isn't anything to tear a fin on, unless it was torn in transport to the store. I scooped him up just as they were unboxing all the moors - he never touched the petsmart tanks' water. Which I'm sure was stressful to go from one bag into another and probably into very different water conditions. He was acclimated with the drip method over about 8 hours, before going into QT. The Oranda had already been at the store from a few days and the stores is on the same county water that I am.

I can't do the deworming treatment and a fin rot treatment at the same time, so if there is any chance this is fin rot, would it be better to treat that first and worry about internal parasites later? They def have the white stringy poo that usually signifies  parasites.                                                             

[SilverWen]

Test Results for the Following:

 Ammonia Level(Tank) 0

 Nitrite Level(Tank) 0

 Nitrate level(Tank) 0

 Ammonia Level(Tap) 0

 Nitrite Level(Tap) no tested

 Nitrate level(Tap) not tested

 Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) pH 6.6, no chloramine

 Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) no chloramine

Other Required Info:

 Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? seachem

 Water temperature? 70

 Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 40 gal - 30 days

 What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Whisper Power Filter 40gal - 210 gph

 How often do you change the water and how much? 50-75% daily

 How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? 50% today

 How many fish in the tank and their size? 2 fish, each an inch long

 What kind of water additives or conditioners? Seachem Prime and Prazi-pro

 What do you feed your fish and how often? Peas, repashy gold. repashy soilent green, repashy red rum, blood worms, mysis shrimp, blanched spinach, nori, and anacharis plants. Fed twice daily, only what they can eat in about 10 min. To be fed on rotation - since I got them yesterday they've only had peas, blood worms, nori, and repashy gold.

 Any new fish added to the tank? both new

 Any medications added to the tank? prazi-pro

 List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank.Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. First dose of prazi started tonight at 7pm

 Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? small area of white along the moor's caudal fin

 Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? no

[koko]

I would continue the Prazi-pro first. If the white is still there you can add aquarium salt to the tank as your doing the Prazi.

I would be more worried about Parasites than the white spots right now. ☺️

[koko]

Oh and it just hit me in the face... Your Ph is very low. We need to get that a little more to the 7.0 range.

Can you find crushed coral or a Wondershell?

[SilverWen]

Thanks, I have to admit that I may be a little more paranoid than I would like...the white thing on his fin was a bit of filter media from the new floss   lol

also, I mis-typed - pH is 7.6

[koko]

11 minutes ago, SilverWen said:

Thanks, I have to admit that I may be a little more paranoid than I would like...the white thing on his fin was a bit of filter media from the new floss   lol

 

That can happen ROFL  

11 minutes ago, SilverWen said:

 

also, I mis-typed - pH is 7.6

Oh good, cause 6.6 is on the low end and can cause whiteness on the fish. Basically burning there skin. 😮 

[SilverWen]

Just did a 100%  water change tonight and noticed that both fish are now occasionally flashing? This is day 4 of prazi - I also did a stupid thing and probably killed all my bacteria  😢  now I have that to contend with too.

Anyone know if using prazi and prime just lower o2 in the water or do they do anything worse - this is the only contraindication that I could find. Hikari says not to use any conditioner containing sulfur, but instead of course to buy their water conditioner...seachem says not to use the prazi and instead to buy their anti parasitic - I've also ordered aquarium salt, should be here wednesday

[koko]

15 hours ago, SilverWen said:

Just did a 100%  water change tonight and noticed that both fish are now occasionally flashing? This is day 4 of prazi - I also did a stupid thing and probably killed all my bacteria  😢  now I have that to contend with too.

Anyone know if using prazi and prime just lower o2 in the water or do they do anything worse - this is the only contraindication that I could find. Hikari says not to use any conditioner containing sulfur, but instead of course to buy their water conditioner...seachem says not to use the prazi and instead to buy their anti parasitic - I've also ordered aquarium salt, should be here wednesday

As long as you didn't clean out the medium in the filter you should still have your cycle. Just test your water and you will find out

Do you have an air stone. You can plug that in and it will give you more O2 in the tank. I have always used Prazi and Prime together and never had an issue with it. Also salt you can buy Pickling salt. I use Morton's Canning and Picking salt. Its so much cheaper in the long run.  

[SilverWen]

Thanks!! I've been watching their behavior and they are still flashing some, but between lowered water level and the air stone I feel like there is plenty of surface agitation to help with o2. And great tip on the salt!

Well, I did the 100% change and turned on the filter and air stone to help circulate the water,,,just forgot to add the prime first    Thankfully the fishes were still in their bucket with all the plants. I'm not sure how fast chlorine kills off the BB, but I'm back to doing ammonia checks and such, still planning on doing large water changes anyway

[koko]

On 8/2/2021 at 4:28 PM, SilverWen said:

Thanks!! I've been watching their behavior and they are still flashing some, but between lowered water level and the air stone I feel like there is plenty of surface agitation to help with o2. And great tip on the salt!

Well, I did the 100% change and turned on the filter and air stone to help circulate the water,,,just forgot to add the prime first    Thankfully the fishes were still in their bucket with all the plants. I'm not sure how fast chlorine kills off the BB, but I'm back to doing ammonia checks and such, still planning on doing large water changes anyway

I think depending on how strong your cycle was. Just keep testing it. I'm sure it will be fine real soon.

Do you have a heater? I think we need to raise the Temp up to at least 78F  

[SilverWen]

I don't have a heater, but I can always get one. The tanks' at room temp which is around 74-76*F

Both have something besides internal parasites going on, it's much more noticeable on the moor - kind of a white film over the scales - and both have slight white edges to their caudal fins. The moor almost looks like fin rot, one of his pectoral fins is ragged and he isn't using it well. It's not gold like velvet, or fluffy like other fungus.

The moor looks like he's not going to make it - he just stops moving and drifts, only swimming enough to keep himself up right or he sits on the bottom. I'm just trying to keep water quality perfect right now and hoping for the best. The oranda has a little of the white film on his back and a slight edge on his tail but is swimming, eating, and acting pretty normal. All his fins are nice and strait and he's not clamping at all.

I don't know if it would be worth it to separate them at this time since they are exposed to the same things and I only have the one filter / air stone. The salt is dosed at 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons and has been raised very gradually. The white film started before the salt was added so I know it's not over-production of slime from that

You can see the fain sheen of white along the top of his back

This is just to show the ragged almost transparent look to his tail edges.

[koko]

Okay Im thinking we might have some fungus going on. 

Do me a favor. Do Not feed the Gel food for about a week. This stuff if you dont turn off the filter will go into the filter media and sit there and when it sits there to long on the filter floss can cause mold. That will cause fungus on the fish sometimes.

Did you get salt yet? 

[SilverWen]

9 hours ago, koko said:

Okay Im thinking we might have some fungus going on. 

Do me a favor. Do Not feed the Gel food for about a week. This stuff if you dont turn off the filter will go into the filter media and sit there and when it sits there to long on the filter floss can cause mold. That will cause fungus on the fish sometimes.

Did you get salt yet? 

I have the salt and started with the 1 tablespoon per 5 gal and have been slowly increasing the concentration to allow for acclimation - though I might be raising it too slowly.

They are currently at 4 tablespoons in a 40 gal tank (so half of what the concentration should be) - I've been raising it by 5 gal increments twice a day - before and after work - giving around 12 hours to adjust to each higher dose (dissolving 1 tablespoon of salt in a small amount of water and then pouring it into slowly the aquarium).

Also, I have sponge around the filter intake and a finer pad of floss in the filter itself - the rest of the space is ceramic media. I've been rinsing the sponges in tank water at every water change. and once a week gently swishing around the media to make sure particles come out. Not sure if this makes a difference on the feeding.

I have to take the filter apart about once a week and soak the propeller in white vinegar to get all the limescale off , so I take the opportunity to rise the media of gunk as well.

They have completed the first 7-day round of prazi and the bottle recommends re-dosing after a three day break. 

This is my first time really using salt, how long do you recommend keeping the water salted?

[SilverWen]

Sorry for all the long posts, I've just not had quite this rough of a QT before. My other goldies were just prazi and done, they never developed any other illnesses after that

[koko]

3 hours ago, SilverWen said:

Sorry for all the long posts, I've just not had quite this rough of a QT before. My other goldies were just prazi and done, they never developed any other illnesses after that

No need to be sorry hun. I will try my best to help you

Okay so I would get the salt up the .2% and start that now and when you re do the prazi keep the salt in the tank for at least a week. If he can handle it we can go to 2 weeks. That should kill the bugs the salt should help with whats going on. If not then we need to doa treatment for fungus Im thinking. .👍

[SilverWen]

As of right now, if my calculations are correct they are at 0.1% which is 10 tablespoons in 40 gals. I've  raised them from no salt to this concentration over 48 hours. Should I continue to slowly raise it every 12 hours or it that necessary

[koko]

Do you have a scale? That is the easiest way to do it.

The reason for a scale is that salt comes in different sizes and it can weigh differently. So do you and your fish a big favor and get a scale.

I would increase it every 48 hours.  

[SilverWen]

Thanks, yes - do have a gram scale.

I've been using the  Vsolute/Vsolution x 100 to get the % of salt in 40 gal of water...how do you calculate it by weight?

Just curious how many grams of salt per gallon of water?

[hannah]

1 gram per litre = 0.1% therefore 3.8g per US Gallon = 0.1%. 

[koko]

1 hour ago, hannah said:

1 gram per litre = 0.1% therefore 3.8g per US Gallon = 0.1%. 

Okay do you have him in a 40 Gallon tank right?

If so.... You would need 151. grams of salt. I have a 40 Gallon Breeder tank and I put in 151 grams for the first 24 hours then 151 more gams the next time...

 

[SilverWen]

Thanks! to both of you 

Yes, It's a 40 gal.

[SilverWen]

Quick Update...both fish are doing really well. I haven't seen any flashing in the past 24 hours, both are eating great, and the moor is swimming instead of drifting and finally holding his dorsal fin all the way up. The only change is that all the pigment still seems to be fading from the moors' tail and dorsal fin- the edges are getting more translucent but the day. The edges are smooth and not ragged or torn and in the light he's starting to have a metallic shine, so I'm wondering if his black is going to fade quickly, wish they kept it longer 

[koko]

14 hours ago, SilverWen said:

Quick Update...both fish are doing really well. I haven't seen any flashing in the past 24 hours, both are eating great, and the moor is swimming instead of drifting and finally holding his dorsal fin all the way up. The only change is that all the pigment still seems to be fading from the moors' tail and dorsal fin- the edges are getting more translucent but the day. The edges are smooth and not ragged or torn and in the light he's starting to have a metallic shine, so I'm wondering if his black is going to fade quickly, wish they kept it longer 

Can you try and get another photo for me. I want to make sure that its not velvet ore something. 😮 

[SilverWen]

Sure. Its hard to get a good non-blurry pic - you can really see the metallic shine on the belly in the reflection

 

[koko]

It almost looks like he's turning gold. Are you sure he isn't just changing color?

Goldfish can change color. 😮