Using Furan 2 medicated food while dosing Maracyn?

[KJSegall]

What is Ammonia Level? 0
What is Nitrite Level? 0
What is Nitrate level? 0
What is Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH)? 7.8 PH
What is Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH)? 7.8 PH
What is the brand of test-kit used(strips or drops)? API Masterkit
What is your water temperature? 72 F
What is the size of the tank (how many gals.) and how long has it been set up? 75 gallons, about 17 months
What is the name and size of the filter(s)? Fluval 110
Is there any substrate in the tank? If so how deep? and what kind (sand, gravel)? Yes. Gravel, apprx 1/2 inch.
How often do you change the water and how much? Weekly, 30%.
How many fish in the tank and their size? 2. Medium and small.
Do you use water conditioner(if so, what kind)? Prime.
What do you feed your fish and how often? M-W, F-S they received boiled broccoli in the morning, and alternating Omega One and API Goldfish pellets in the evening. Th they receive Hikari algae wafer in the morning and Hikari freezedried daphnia in the evening. Sun they receive peas in the morning, and Hikari frozen bloodworms in the evening.
Is there any new fish/plant added to the tank? if so how long is the quarantine period? Unfortunately I added 5 nerite snails 3 weeks ago and did not quarantine.
Is there any medications added to the tank? Currently dosing Maracyn 2.
Describe the problems you are seeing: example grains of salt on body, bloddy streaks, frayed fins, fungus, staying at bottom, not eating, etc? Last week I was heartbroken to discover Sushi, a medium redcap oranda, had died suddenly. I took a close inspection on both her body as well as the two survivors. I had not noticed red veins appearing in their tails (Sushi had red on her tail naturally, and Bold and Chubman are orange, masking the issue. Still, poor observation on my part.) That morning Sushi ate and acted as normal. Further observation has shown white, empty poo coming from both Chubman and Bold. Chubman also has a small red spot on his belly. Both have eaten and generally acted normal but I felt it was clear this is septicemia--I did not quarantine 5 nerite snails added to the tank 3 weeks ago as I did not realize they were common carriers of disease. (Total failure on my part, I know, and poor Sushi paid the price.) I immediately removed the carbon from the filter and dosed the entire tank with Maracyn 2. After completing the first round and performing a water change, I observed that both the red streaks as well as white poo remained, so I continued for a second round. However I am nearing the end of that and still do not notice any improvement in either symptom. I have ordered Maracyn to attempt to resolve the issue. (I know that this will crash the cycle. I have a quarantine set up but it cannot safely hold both fish. I have plenty of Prime on hand and will be performing daily water tests. Also, the tank is 75 gallons, and with only 2 fish--including one that is still quite small--I am hoping to navigate that crisis. I also plan on removing some substrate as well as the biological medium from the filter and placing it in quarantine tank so as to quickly restart the cycle after treatment.)

As I know that septicemia is a very serious disease with a short time frame to try to cure--and now already well behind on that--I was thinking to also get some Furan 2 and make medicated food while dosing the tank with Maracyn. However, I cannot find any information on whether combining those medications will cause any complications. Does anyone know anything regarding that? Of course, if there is any additional advice that could help me save the survivors, I welcome that as well.

[koko]

@Arctic Mama is great with meds. When she gets the chance I'm sure she will try and help ya.

[Arctic Mama]

Can you run your water tests again carefully? The nitrate doesn’t look quite right.  Pictures of the affected fish would also help me very much.  Maracyn might not be the best choice here.

[Arctic Mama]

I’m also looking into it more and remembering why I don’t usually recommend Maracyn 2 (minocycline) - it works best in lower mineral, softer water.  Yours is 7.8 and I don’t know how hard it is, but too much dissolved calcium can limit the efficacy.  It doesn’t like combining with other meds either, just methylene blue.

[KJSegall]

Thank you @Arctic Mama! I apologize for not following up--I thought I had this set to give me alerts whenever someone replied and didn't see anything!

As a follow up to where we're at now, Bold (medium demekin) is not doing well. Might not make it through the night. She has been lethargic, the red streaks in her tail seem to have increased, and she did not eat over the past 3 days. Chubman (small ranchu) seems ok, but still has a red blotch on his side.

I ran my test results yesterday (had been doing so daily), the results were mostly the same with a slight increase (somewhere between 0 and 0.25) in ammonia, so I dropped some extra Prime in. 

I've tried using the Furan 2 medicated food since my initial post but am ending that as of tomorrow. I ran 3 doses of Kanaplex, ending yesterday. Today we performed a 50% water change and I added carbon to the filter to try to get rid of the medications in there.

I did not use the Maracyn because I didn't know if I could combine that with Furan 2 food. I did pick up some API E.M. erythromycin yesterday. Have not used yet (again, wanted to get all the other stuff out first).

I have some pictures of Bold here. Some with lights on and some with lights off (I've turned the lights off to try to ease stress for Bold). I've tried to get pictures of Chubman's side but he's been... less than co-operative.

[KJSegall]

OK, managed to get a picture of Chubman's side today, with the red dot that has been there for a while. (Yes, he is missing an eye, that happened about 6 months ago and we never did figure out what happened).

[Arctic Mama]

Okay refresh me, what are the current symptoms aside from the red dot and some bottom sitting? I’m having a hard time understanding what’s you’re trying to fix, and your nitrate test still isn’t right for an established tank.  You shouldn’t be showing any ammonia either, have you been dosing the main tank with the filter in?  

[KJSegall]

@Arctic Mama Um, maybe just best to take it from the top so I get all relevant info in:

 

About a month ago, my redcap oranda Sushi suddenly died. About a week or so prior I had put some nerite snails into the tank, but because I'm an idiot I didn't realize they needed to be quarantined. He had natural red in his tail (he wasn't exactly a show quality redcap, he had red and white all over), which masked red streaks that I then discovered upon examining his body. I examined the other two--Bold, a female orange demekin and Chubman, a male orange ranchu--and noted that Bold had red streaks as well in her tail and that Chubman had a red spot on his side. Best I could tell from research it was septicemia, but full disclosure that's just an amateur having read a ton of stuff on Google, no vet opinion or such. 

I dosed Maracyn 2 for two full rounds. While both continued to behave and eat as normal throughout, the red streaks/mark did not disappear. Both also had white, stringy poo at times (amongst their normal poo). So I then used some Furan 2 and garlic powder and soaked it into some of their food (Omega One). The streaks and spot did not clear up, although I did no longer observe any white, stringy poo. As Bold has swimming issues when fed only pellets, I also floated romaine lettuce daily in the tank (a previous habit) which keeps him clear and not floating. I then also performed 3 full rounds of Kanaplex.

As of about 5 days ago Bold stopped eating and has become lethargic, generally just sitting on the tank bed. Chubman has generally behaved normally, although I stopped turning on the lights to try to ease the stress for Bold and so sometimes Chubman does seem to just chill--but I can't quite tell if its lethargy or if it's because with the lights out, he's just relaxing more?

I stopped feeding altogether about 3 days ago when I performed a 50% water change and added carbon back to the filter (it was removed when I first dosed the Maracyn 2). The parameters were fine--no ammonia until as I mentioned just before the water change, it did go up some. As of today the ammonia has definitely spiked*. I've dosed 5x Prime to the tank to detoxify (I took this action immediately when the ammonia crept up and made sure when the water change was performed an adequate amount was replaced with it).

All medications were given to the main tank as both goldfish showed symptoms, and with the snails in there I wanted to make sure I took care of the root problem as well. I knew a crash was likely, so I made sure to test daily with plenty of Prime on hand. 

*to note, the water I use here has chloramine in it, so ammonia readings always spike the same day as a water change. I always use about 2x Prime dosage in the new water before adding to make sure it's not a problem, and typically it's back to 0 by the next day.

Anyways, to my surprise Bold is still with us, but still not eating and still being very lethargic, with the red streaking still prominent in her tail. Chubman again seems to be generally acting fine but does still have the red spot. I'm not sure where to go from here. I have E.M. erythromycin from API on hand but haven't taken any action yet, wanted to give the carbon a bit more time to clear out the old stuff.

Ok, I think that's everything. If there's additional info please let me know. And thanks again for helping!!! I'm not sure what to do here. I don't want to lose either goldfish. We're bracing for Bold to pass but at least I'm hoping to save Chubman.

[Arctic Mama]

I’m at an airport.  But I am COMING BACK TO THIS.  I promise.  Sorry I haven’t been more prompt in helping.

[Arctic Mama]

Okay so you treated in the main tank? The Maracyn would definitely trash your filter.  At this point I wouldn’t do meds to address this until the filter is calmed down, and any meds we would do would be in a hospital tank or bucket.  But you’ve tried so many things, I’m afraid more might kill them.

Are you okay would giving it two weeks of zero treatment and daily or every other day water changes? The next treatment we would try is metronidazole, if they’re not improved.  What say you?

[KJSegall]

@Arctic Mama You've been so helpful, thank you again! Truly!

If you think that's the best route, I'm game. I changed the water again today, I'll just keep up 30% every 48 hours.

My question would be--if I treat the goldfish in a hospital, what about the fact that the snails are in the main tank still? Wouldn't the goldfish just get re-infected when returned to the tank?

[Arctic Mama]

You’d want to treat the snails with the goldfish and let the tank run with no animals for a few weeks.  Pathogens need hosts, and with only a minor cleaning agent like meth blue and no hosts you’d be good to go again in the main tank within two weeks or so.

[KJSegall]

Got it. What if it's bacterial? (Just asking questions)

[Arctic Mama]

4 hours ago, KJSegall said:

Got it. What if it's bacterial? (Just asking questions)

It will die out even faster.  Parasites are your longest lived without a direct host in some cases, but those tomites don’t last forever.  Very warm water and two weeks AND something like potassium permanganate or meth blue run through there will nuke pretty much anything.  Whatever may lie dormant in the fish or snails is the bigger worry by far.

[KJSegall]

Gotcha. Thank you so much again. I'll check back in if anything develops or at the 2 week mark, whichever is faster. :-)

As some good news--Bold is up, swimming and eating. Very surprising!

[KJSegall]

Update--while Bold is definitely doing much better (still red streaks in fins and white, stringy poo) Chubman now seems to be on a downturn. He's still swimming some, and still eating, but I've observed a lot of lethargy out of him over the past 48 hours. We've maintained frequent water changes (Saturday and yesterday... slipped a tad there). Readings are roughly the same, although Nitrate is now at 5ppm (I guess there was some sort of error before? no clue how it's gone up with so many changes) and Ammonia is steady at 1ppm (again, there is chloramine in our water, so water changes won't ever lower that), and I've been maintaining 3x Prime dosage every 2 days religiously. Their feeding has been reduced, they get alternating pellets every other day with some romaine lettuce, and boiled broccoli on the other days, only in the morning. Yesterday they got peas.

I've studied Chubman like a hawk but cannot determine anything visually wrong. Unfortunately with his fins lacking any white, it's near impossible for me to tell if there are red vein streaks like with Bold. Whenever I see him poo it appears normal.

Any advice? Should I just stick with the current plan? Images attached below.

[Arctic Mama]

The stringy poop could be stress, it’s tough to say. His tail looks okay to my eye, some residual redness but not terribly inflamed. Would you like to try metronidazole with him? Two weeks of either a medicated flake or some in the water in a hospital tank would be the next thing I’d recommend, with the caveat it’s a 50/50 toss up as to whether it would work.  Metro is nice because it’s fairly broad spectrum and affects parasites too, so it gives us a good coverage of things the Maracyn might not have affected 

[KJSegall]

Hmmm. I suppose so. You think they're ready? If the white poo is stress, feels like the last thing I would want to do is push them further...

And RE Bold's tail, I wish I had a better camera. There are veins going from the base nearly all the way to the tip that are bright red. Could that just be residual if its like that?
 

(Also once again, thank you *so* much for all this help!)

[Arctic Mama]

A little visible veining is okay, but when they look bloody or bright pink that’s the worrying sign

if they’re not getting better beyond this point it’s really your call.  The listless side laying isn’t a good sign, so if you don’t see that go away you don’t have a lot to lose  You can give it more time to observe; too.  That’s always an option.

[KJSegall]

OK. We did a water change today... I guess I'll give it another 24 hours of observation? But good point about not having much to lose. Bold's tail definitely has bloody red veins. Like I said with Chubman, I just can't tell. Ugh.

I could beat myself for bringing these snails in. (Tank does look great at least.)

[Arctic Mama]

It’s really your call.  I don’t think it would hurt, but I also can’t say with confidence it would help at this point, and I don’t like using needless antibiotics since that contributes to resistant strains.  However if there is one more treatment that could assist this would be it.

[KJSegall]

Alright, thanks. I'll try to find some medicated food.

[Arctic Mama]

https://angelsplus.com/collections/fish-flake-food/products/fish-antibiotics
 

This is one I’ve really liked, but read the instructions carefully, medicated food isn’t fed like normal food

[KJSegall]

Ordered, along with their prevent and recover. Read up on their tips for proper feeding. Fingers crossed!

[Arctic Mama]

Sounds good  As long as they’re eating it should work.