Suspected beginnings of Swim Bladder disorder?

[dahling8]

Very pretty Orandas, such an intense yellow on the lemonhead, sorry for the loss.  I love the dark eyes on the calico,  looks like he's primed to be a very good looking boy grown up.  Good luck with him.

I had temperatures running at least 75*F since the beginning of the year, it's just within the last 2 months when I decided to take out the heater so unless it's a warm day, temps hover around 70*F.

I'll be out of the country in a couple of weeks, so in the meantime, I'll play around with the food choices.  They get a scoop of duckweed daily and rotate between Repashy Solient Green, a combo of NLS Algaemax and Thera+, frozen bloodworms and mysis shrimp.  Once I get back, I'll see if keeping temps back up to 75*F and lower nitrates helps.  

[koko]

On 10/13/2018 at 11:54 AM, dahling8 said:

Very pretty Orandas, such an intense yellow on the lemonhead, sorry for the loss.  I love the dark eyes on the calico,  looks like he's primed to be a very good looking boy grown up.  Good luck with him.

I had temperatures running at least 75*F since the beginning of the year, it's just within the last 2 months when I decided to take out the heater so unless it's a warm day, temps hover around 70*F.

I'll be out of the country in a couple of weeks, so in the meantime, I'll play around with the food choices.  They get a scoop of duckweed daily and rotate between Repashy Solient Green, a combo of NLS Algaemax and Thera+, frozen bloodworms and mysis shrimp.  Once I get back, I'll see if keeping temps back up to 75*F and lower nitrates helps.  

While your gone, I would just give them the duckweed. They can survive on that for a while with no issues.  

[Arctic Mama]

On 10/12/2018 at 3:54 PM, dahling8 said:

Of course I spoke to soon, after several days, he's starting to exhibit floaty signs again.  The environment is the same, the only difference are the foods that I'm feeding the fish.  Duckweed, green peas aren't a problem so I'll back track and start introducing the other foods one at a time on it's own for several days and if he is symptom free, I'll add another menu item and so on.    

Greens make a huge difference.  I had to stop feeding various foods because of allergies and can only really feed vegetable matter and repashy super green mixed with a scoop of fish meal, but that particular diet has had the side benefit of cutting almost all constipation, floating, and excessive feces from my fish.  I had a lot more trouble with floaters on high quality dried diets and protein rich live/freeze dried food before, and it was very frustrating.  Goldfish love their spirulina/seaweed/duckweed/elodea and a bit of worm/fish/random bug added in.  Truly!  

[dahling8]

Oh I believe it!  This is my first goldfish that is a little floaty.  Were your floaters Orandas too?

My ranchu are doing ok, probably wondering what happened to all the other foods that were fed on a regular basis.  After 3 days of just duckweed but he was no longer floaty, but decided to mope on the bottom.  He could swim if he wanted to and took in duckweed, but not with a lot of gusto.  He went bananas when I dropped in an 1/8 of a tsp of NLS pellets.   After a couple of days of an 1/8 of a tsp of NLS, I doubled up and gave a second feed of NLS later on in the day.  He's more active, but his tail end is starting to go tipsy.  So it may be that commercial dry feed...back to just duckweed until he's swimming normally again.

I'm running out of days to experiment, so I'll cut out the NLS and test feed Repashy next if he's normal and then 2 weeks of straight duckweed while I'm gone.

Side note, I did a 100% water change on Saturday and I have been doing daily nitrate tests.  I had to do a double take each time for the last several days, 5 days after a water change, I'm expecting nitrate readings of 20ppm or so.  For the last 3 days they were barely orange on the API nitrate test, so maybe 5ppm if that.  I used a Salifert nitrate test and it was reading 2ppm.  Stunned...I was hoping for de-nitrification, so pleasantly surprised when it actually happened.  Cutting down on the volume of food may be a factor, but nitrates should still read more than 2ppm after almost a week.  The plan now is to just do 50% water changes weekly instead of the 2 x 75% water changes I've been doing to keep nitrates low.

 

 

[koko]

Now becareful with the Repashy food, cause some veggies will make them get gas too. Like broccoli and bell peppers. Also when you feed gel foods, make sure you turn off the filter for atleast 5 mins so that the fish can eat and the food doesn't get sucked up in the filter.  

[dahling8]

My Repashy mix is Solient Green, I have some Super Gold that I haven't tried yet. 

Repashy was my next test food after the NLS pellets, I gave them their regular amount of Solient Green and the next day Mr Oranda was a little tail high.  So  Solient Green is another contributor.

I'm running out of days to experiment so they get a bunch of duckweed daily right now and my fish sitter will just ladle in duckweed in the tub while I'm away.  Hopefully that would be a good reset to Mr Oranda's innards until I get back.

[mjfromga]

Try Super Green. It's likely that Super Gold will cause issues if Soilent Green does. I have prefilter sponges on my filters. This prevents food from ever getting sucked into the filters. With tiny food for fish like Tiger Barbs, it was necessary. 

[dahling8]

Super Green - I'll add that to my online shopping cart.  Thanks.

Eventually I may have to move Mr Oranda to his own tank/tub or an Oranda only tank with their special dietary needs.  The ranchus are half his size (body weight) and they can easily take in more and a greater variety of food without any floatiness issues.  

[dahling8]

I'm a big believer in pre-filters, especially on canister filters.  I have them on all my filters - it just makes sense to allow bits of food that can be picked off by the fish so it doesn't rot in the filter.

[dahling8]

Back from vacation - sorry this thread is more like a journal.  Fish appears fine, my 40 gallon duckweed tank is just thick with daphnia and duckweed.  I hope they don't grow tired of duckweed.  I know I would.

Took a nitrate reading, less than 5ppm, not readable on the API Nitrate test...just barely orange.  I'll test with the Salifert test another time.  I had my fishy helper do occasional 3 gallon water changes with prep'd water whenever she felt like it, 30 gallons were used up while I was away for 2 weeks.  Nitrates were going up about 5ppm daily for the past 6 months that the filters were setup  and I needed 2 x 75% weekly water changes to keep Nitrates on the low side, so it looks like my biomedia has completed the denitrfying cycle.  Now I'll probably drop down to just a 50% water change weekly just to keep water fresh.

Mr Oranda is ok after 2 weeks of duckweed.  I started introducing some NLS Algaemax 2 days ago and he still seems fine and not really floaty.  Not really too active either until I drop in some Algaemax and he goes bananas.  I increased temps to 75*F hopefully to get him more active and swim more.  I'll introduce some new food this weekend if he's still good with the Algaemax. 

Edited November 13, 2018 by dahling8

[dahling8]

Quick update, Mr Oranda seems to be swimming ok with duckweed and NLS Algaemax.  He is more active now with a combination of higher temperatures and foraging for NLS pellets.  I just started introducing frozen blood worms to the tub yesterday.  The wens for all 3 fish are coming along, but they could be "poofier" if that's such a word, so I'll continue with the blood worms unless there's floatiness issues developing again.  If the bloodworms work out, I'll experiment with frozen mysis shrimp.

Just took a nitrate reading.  It's been a week since a water change.  I can't even get a nitrate reading with the API test kit.  I tested with the Salifert test and it comes out to 2ppm.  Exactly what I was hoping for.  I just have to resist letting my water change schedule slide, I still want to do 50% water changes weekly but it's nice to know that I have a cushion if I'm not able to do a water change.

[koko]

On 11/18/2018 at 10:27 AM, dahling8 said:

Quick update, Mr Oranda seems to be swimming ok with duckweed and NLS Algaemax.  He is more active now with a combination of higher temperatures and foraging for NLS pellets.  I just started introducing frozen blood worms to the tub yesterday.  The wens for all 3 fish are coming along, but they could be "poofier" if that's such a word, so I'll continue with the blood worms unless there's floatiness issues developing again.  If the bloodworms work out, I'll experiment with frozen mysis shrimp.

Just took a nitrate reading.  It's been a week since a water change.  I can't even get a nitrate reading with the API test kit.  I tested with the Salifert test and it comes out to 2ppm.  Exactly what I was hoping for.  I just have to resist letting my water change schedule slide, I still want to do 50% water changes weekly but it's nice to know that I have a cushion if I'm not able to do a water change.

That is sounding so much better. Yes keep up on the water changes but keep an eye on that Ph while we go into rainy season  I know mine will change little bit  

[dahling8]

14 hours ago, koko said:

That is sounding so much better. Yes keep up on the water changes but keep an eye on that Ph while we go into rainy season  I know mine will change little bit  

Thank you!  You have very soft water too with little buffering capacity too?  During the winter I do have to watch out for oxygen supersaturation too with larger water changes.

[koko]

10 minutes ago, dahling8 said:

Thank you!  You have very soft water too with little buffering capacity too?  During the winter I do have to watch out for oxygen supersaturation too with larger water changes.

I use the Wondershells to keep it balanced. For some ppl it doesn't work if the KH is very low. The reason it will dissolve to fast for some. Mine I only need to put the pond size in my 40B tank about every three weeks. I have yet to have a problem with my PH (knock on wood) since I started to use them.  I have the same problem with supersaturation too. For this I do two water changes a week and only us 95% cold water, thats the other reason I do smaller changes cause the water is so cold right now.  

[dahling8]

I've heard of Wondershells and we have 0*dKH.  I rely on baking soda to keep my a KH reasonably high enough to keep the pH stable, so the water does need changing if just to replenish carbonates used during the week.

[koko]

On 11/20/2018 at 9:29 AM, dahling8 said:

I've heard of Wondershells and we have 0*dKH.  I rely on baking soda to keep my a KH reasonably high enough to keep the pH stable, so the water does need changing if just to replenish carbonates used during the week.

How big is your tank/pond?

 

[dahling8]

3 hours ago, koko said:

How big is your tank/pond?

 

Capacity of the stock tank is 50 gallons.  I have it filled up to about the 40 gallon level.

Separate question.  I ladle in a cup of duckweed in the stock tank a couple times a day.  The fish are at the surface slurping/mouthing at the duckweed until it's all gone, could be like an hour each time.   Would that promote extra gas in their system nibbling on all that duckweed?

[shakaho]

1 hour ago, dahling8 said:

Capacity of the stock tank is 50 gallons.  I have it filled up to about the 40 gallon level.

Separate question.  I ladle in a cup of duckweed in the stock tank a couple times a day.  The fish are at the surface slurping/mouthing at the duckweed until it's all gone, could be like an hour each time.   Would that promote extra gas in their system nibbling on all that duckweed?

No, it won't.  You can't feed anything better for their digestion than duckweed.

[koko]

14 minutes ago, shakaho said:

No, it won't.  You can't feed anything better for their digestion than duckweed.

I 100% agree with ya there. I wish I could find one that I trust. I cant grow it here as its the rainy season again. 

[dahling8]

3 hours ago, koko said:

I 100% agree with ya there. I wish I could find one that I trust. I cant grow it here as its the rainy season again. 

Thanks!  Took me awhile to cultivate mine.  Now I have a thick layer growing in a 40g breeder tank.  I started off with a small portion of duckweed and sterilized it with a misting of Hydrogen Peroxide followed by Vinegar.  Much of the duckweed didn't survive, but a few did and now I have way too much.

[koko]

14 hours ago, dahling8 said:

Thanks!  Took me awhile to cultivate mine.  Now I have a thick layer growing in a 40g breeder tank.  I started off with a small portion of duckweed and sterilized it with a misting of Hydrogen Peroxide followed by Vinegar.  Much of the duckweed didn't survive, but a few did and now I have way too much.

Im going to try and grow some this spring. I have a place around here that sells it but it takes about 45 mins one way to get there. So I only go when Im going to be out in that area  

[mjfromga]

I cannot grow it at all. I tried multiple times. Much like the rest of my aquatic plants, it dies. My goldfish never get it at all. 

[dahling8]

When I try to get rid of my duckweed, it rises from the dead and it invades the tank again. 

I'm using the 40g breeder that my goldfish were in, filled it up 3/4 of the way with old tank water, an airline w/o air stone just to keep the water from getting stagnant.  A few live daphnia and a splash of Seachem plant fertilizer weekly.  5 weeks later starting with just a few duckweed and it's thick like pea soup.  Help - I can't keep up!  I have an old LED light over it for probably 15 hours a day.

When they get there twice daily scoop of duckweed, I'm sure some daphnia gets ladled out too.

[koko]

On 11/25/2018 at 12:52 PM, dahling8 said:

When I try to get rid of my duckweed, it rises from the dead and it invades the tank again. 

I'm using the 40g breeder that my goldfish were in, filled it up 3/4 of the way with old tank water, an airline w/o air stone just to keep the water from getting stagnant.  A few live daphnia and a splash of Seachem plant fertilizer weekly.  5 weeks later starting with just a few duckweed and it's thick like pea soup.  Help - I can't keep up!  I have an old LED light over it for probably 15 hours a day.

When they get there twice daily scoop of duckweed, I'm sure some daphnia gets ladled out too.

You should send me some

How are they doing today? 

[dahling8]

On 11/27/2018 at 2:28 PM, koko said:

You should send me some

How are they doing today? 

Ooops...sorry I missed this. 

All the fish are doing fine in the Rubbermaid 50.  So of the foods that I have, the ones I can feed without any issues are duckweed (about 1/2 a cup twice daily), New Life Spectrum Algaemax, frozen blood worms.  Repashy Solient Green, NLS TherA+ pellets, Paradigm Herbivore freeze dried crumbles, frozen PE Mysis shrimp cause floaty issues in Mr Oranda.  The 2 ranchus are still smiling without any problems.  I try to sneak in some Repashy food for the ranchus, but one of them is a slow eater, likely the eyesight isn't very good.  It takes him several passes to take in any food and quite often he misses.  That gives Mr Oranda enough time to swoop in and hoover up the forbidden food and sure enough, the next day  I usually find him floating at the surface.  I have a 2" round air stone  that produces lots of fine bubbles and he seems to like to hover directly over the air bubbles.  Yesterday, I found him floating upside down and when he saw me, he righted himself pretty quick.

For water quality, I've just started using a Wondershell.  A large one for 40 gallons worth of water, it seems like it should last me about 3 weeks.  I have enough to give it a good trial so we'll see how the goldfish do with that.  If they do well, I may start using that to raise some baby ranchu next summer.

I cleaned out the filter housing and rinsed the bio filter media with old tank water, my de-nitrifying bacteria didn't seem to like that.  I was consistently getting less than 5ppm readings of nitrates a week between water changes for the past 2 months and now it's back up to 20-25 ppm after 7 days.  😡  Back to multiple water changes a week now.  🙄