red spot on head, general lazyness

[eatfood 108]

My ranch sits on the bottom a lot.  he has been this way for a long time.  recently we had plumbing issue and the tank went too long without a water change and now I see this area on his head that appears redder than the rest.  not sure if this is a problem or if it will go away on it's own?  he never really swims very far off the bottom and appears to be sleeping a lot.  I thought it was because I messed up his auto feeder and was feeding him at night (bonehead), but I have since fixed that.  he has been a bottom dweller for quite some time so I thought it was just behavior related to being board and all by himself.  I have since added a couple new fish and he swims around a bit more, but mostly on the bottom.  water parameters are all good.  is this a wait it out type thing, or should I be medicating?

[shakaho 6,312]

What are the dimensions of your tank?

[eatfood 108]

It is a 50 breeder, 18x18x36

[Arctic Mama 3,593]

Your pictures didn’t come through, could you try again?  Include some closeups of him as well as the entire tank, please.  And can you fill out this form in as much detail as possible.

 

Disease Diagnostic Form

Test Results for the Following:

* Ammonia Level(Tank)

* Nitrite Level(Tank)

* Nitrate level(Tank)

* Ammonia Level(Tap)

* Nitrite Level(Tap)

* Nitrate level(Tap)

* Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 

* Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)

Other Required Info:

* Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops?

* Water temperature?

* Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running?

* What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)?

* How often do you change the water and how much?

* How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change?

* How many fish in the tank and their size?

* What kind of water additives or conditioners?

* What do you feed your fish and how often?

* Any new fish added to the tank?

* Any medications added to the tank?

* How long have symptoms been going on?

[eatfood 108]

Sorry I uploaded on the road from my phone.  I got home and tested everything tonight.  you can see the red area over the top of his left eye.

Test Results for the Following:

* Ammonia Level(Tank) 0 ppm

* Nitrite Level(Tank) 0 ppm

* Nitrate level(Tank) 10 ppm

* Ammonia Level(Tap) 0 ppm

* Nitrite Level(Tap) 0 ppm

* Nitrate level(Tap) 0 ppm

* Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) Ph = 8.2

* Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) Ph = 7.8

Other Required Info:

* Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API Master Kit, drops

* Water temperature? 23 C /  73 F

* Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 48 gallons, 5 years

* What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Aquaclear 70 filled with foam and floss for mech, ADA SuperJet 600ex canister filter filled with 8 liters of biomax for bio.  (18 watt UV sterilizer is down at the moment, new ballast should be here tomorrow)

* How often do you change the water and how much? usually every couple of weeks to once a month (one fish), bumping it back up to every week or two depending on test results now that there are 2 more fish added.  I did notice the red area in the wen after an especially long period between water changes (maybe 6-8 weeks, don't exactly remember).  I thought the way the wen has been developing that maybe this was just a new colorful area

* How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? one week, 80%

* How many fish in the tank and their size? (3), 6 inch Ranchu (fish in question) 2 new orandas, body and tail combined 6 inches 

* What kind of water additives or conditioners? just Aqueon water conditioner at water change

* What do you feed your fish and how often? a pinch, like a couple dozen little pellets (can't remember the exact weight) of new life spectrum thera a, 2mm size, 3 times a day. bumped to 5 times a day with new fish.  I use an auto feeder 

* Any new fish added to the tank? yes, 2 orandas a week ago

* Any medications added to the tank? No

* How long have symptoms been going on? red spot/wen area ~ couple of weeks, sitting around towards the bottom of the tank ~ year-ish

[eatfood 108]

Another thing that happened was my dimmer controller on the main led was unplugged for those couple of months too, making the light much brighter.  While he developed the red area he also lost most of the orange color on his body.  I sort of thought the change in light caused the color changes too...

[eatfood 108]

Did my pictures work?  any ideas? 

[koko 14,315]

* How often do you change the water and how much? usually every couple of weeks to once a month (one fish), bumping it back up to every week or two depending on test results now that there are 2 more fish added.  I did notice the red area in the wen after an especially long period between water changes (maybe 6-8 weeks, don't exactly remember).  I thought the way the wen has been developing that maybe this was just a new colorful area

You need to change the water in the tank at least 50% every week. You can do smaller water changes but at least 50% total every week.

* What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Aquaclear 70 filled with foam and floss for mech, ADA SuperJet 600ex canister filter filled with 8 liters of biomax for bio.  (18 watt UV sterilizer is down at the moment, new ballast should be here tomorrow)

 

Do you ever change the water out of the filters? you should be dumping that water out every water change and rinse the media once you see it building gunk in it.

* How many fish in the tank and their size? (3), 6 inch Ranchu (fish in question) 2 new orandas, body and tail combined 6 inches

Also you should only have 2 fish in this sized tank. Anything more you will need to bump up your water changes.

 

If it was me and this fish I would first Qt the fish in a 10 gallon tank or container with a sponge filter. I would only add some Aquarium salt to the tank for the first step. 

[Arctic Mama 3,593]

I actually wouldn’t medicate for that just yet.  A quarantine with great water (daily changes please) and slowly increasing the salt to .3% until the bump subsided or pops.  Watch his behavior in the quarantine and if it deteriorates we can run some antibiotics and a prazi round.

 

Do you need specific instructions for running the quarantine or administering the salt?

[eatfood 108]

I have a spare 10 gallon and aquaclear 20 sitting in the garage.  do you think I really need a sponge filter?  is a the 10 gallon big enough? 

I am noticing this activity level is getting better every day, but he still seems to tucker out here and there, and he is still swimming mostly 1" off the bottom of the tank.   

Here is an updated picture of his head while he is playing with his marbles.  what do you think this is?  ammonia burn or something?

Edited May 16, 2018 by eatfood

[koko 14,315]

You could use that filter or do a 100% water change every day.  

[Arctic Mama 3,593]

Yes, I’d probably just have an air stone in and do daily 100% changes in the ten gallon.  Prazi and salt rounds for now, and let us know how things look over the next week or two.  Prazi has been known to make fish pout and bottom sit, just fyi

 

Here are the salt instructions

https://www.kokosgoldfish.com/UsingSalt.html

 

And here are the instructions for rounds of prazi and salt together:

 

You did quarantine the new fish before adding them in, right?  If not, we may want to treat them all together with the salt and prazi.

 

 

[eatfood 108]

1 hour ago, Arctic Mama said:

Yes, I’d probably just have an air stone in and do daily 100% changes in the ten gallon.  Prazi and salt rounds for now, and let us know how things look over the next week or two.  Prazi has been known to make fish pout and bottom sit, just fyi

 

Here are the salt instructions

https://www.kokosgoldfish.com/UsingSalt.html

 

And here are the instructions for rounds of prazi and salt together:

 

You did quarantine the new fish before adding them in, right?  If not, we may want to treat them all together with the salt and prazi.

 

 

I did not, but they came after this happened to the other fish (they did not bring it with them and they seem healthy).  I do have an uv on this tank.  Should I just do the treatment in the main tank with all 3 fish?  and do I need to pull my above water plants or will this hurt my filter media?  I am pretty sure I should not add any under water plants

Edited May 17, 2018 by eatfood

[Arctic Mama 3,593]

Yes, just do the main tank.  The plants won’t love the salt so I’d remove them if they’re sensitive, but things like anubias should hold up fine.  The filter will be fine as well.

 

Definitrly quarantine new arrivals -  I learned that one the hard way more than once!

Edited May 18, 2018 by Arctic Mama

[eatfood 108]

ok will do, these were the first fish I have bought in years and I got too excited lol.  I will set up my hospital tank for my plants lol, and dose the main based on those links you sent.  

Thanks so much for all the help Arctic Mama and Koko!  I really love this fish and want to see him back in fully glory.  

Side note, the new red oranda is mean, chases and pushes the other two around every time the auto feeder drops food.  I am worried about the added stress this is creating...

[Arctic Mama 3,593]

Given the time of year he’s probably feeling some spring fever and trying to get frisky, goldfish style.  But you can always reorganize the habitat and float a plastic colander in the water with him for a bit to keep him on fishy timeout and give the others a bit of a break too

[eatfood 108]

1 minute ago, Arctic Mama said:

Given the time of year he’s probably feeling some spring fever and trying to get frisky, goldfish style.  But you can always reorganize the habitat and float a plastic colander in the water with him for a bit to keep him on fishy timeout and give the others a bit of a break too

haha I like that!  Yeah I see the white spots on his gill plate and the silver oranda that appears to be a female (no spots) gets it the worst!  He is like the weirdo at the club for sure!  

[shakaho 6,312]

My observations say that the more horizontal space the fish has, the more it swims.  I think the goldfish keeps thinking "There might be some food over there," and swims over there to check it out.  

Simillarly, the shallower the water, the more likely the fish will get off the bottom.  If you give some floating food -- ideally duckweed -- the fish finds getting off the bottom much more interesting.   I always use a shallow spacious container container for inactive fish, something like this or this.   

[eatfood 108]

2 minutes ago, shakaho said:

My observations say that the more horizontal space the fish has, the more it swims.  I think the goldfish keeps thinking "There might be some food over there," and swims over there to check it out.  

Simillarly, the shallower the water, the more likely the fish will get off the bottom.  If you give some floating food -- ideally duckweed -- the fish finds getting off the bottom much more interesting.   I always use a shallow spacious container container for inactive fish, something like this or this.   

so you think that maybe I am not dealing with a disease? 

[Arctic Mama 3,593]

I think we both want to try the easy fixes/husbandry habits/basic maintenance care stuff first.  There is nothing that screams ‘infection!’ at me, even the red spot on the web might just be a bacterial cyst from water quality issues or even normal wen funkiness.  And you have new aquarium animals that weren’t treated for ecto-parasites or quarantined and watched for a month or two.  So hitting the easy stuff with the least stress is what we want to try in the absence of worse symptoms.

 

And Sharon is right - goldfish like shallow tanks and lots of horizontal space.  Think ponds and rivers.  Not only would it be good for them, but adding in a great aquatic plant food like duckweed is helpful for their condition and digestive tracts in general.  It is nutritive and laxative, both.  Again, easy things to try first

[eatfood 108]

nice!  I try to feed green peas (squished out of the shell) but I don't do it near enough.  Actually I see the best results when I cut the pellets off for the weekend and only feed him some peas one of the days.  He gets way more active (still towards the bottom), but all over the place.  It is like the pellet digestion takes it out of him, or he knows he does not need to try very hard for food.  I mean he has been bottom sitting for over a year so I would have thought worse symptoms would have happened by now?  IDK, I want him to live much longer and be happy, so if I need to try some salt/prazi - no big deal.

[shakaho 6,312]

Yes,  we don't think the fish has an infection since it has had the same symptom for a year.  Infections get worse, often very quickly. 

A fish that finds swimming hard work for whatever reason tends to just sit around.  Think of a person who works at a desk all day long and then goes home and sits in a chair and watches TV rather than going outside and getting some exercise.  Even walking seems like too much work to him.

[mjfromga 1,784]

Also, the tank is pretty bare. I would just sit around bored too if my home looked that way. There's very little to do. 2 or 3 marbles isn't really sufficient mental stimulation if you ask me. Goldfish love to forage and they like plants. It is my opinion that really bare tanks aren't appropriate.

I keep lots of things on the bottom for my fish to move around and forage through even though I don't have substrate yet. I also have artificial plants scattered all around and bubbles that they like to swim through. 

[eatfood 108]

I am in the process of adding back my plant pots (see my tank thread if you like).  maybe some more marbles too?  curing boredom was the biggest reason I added tank mates.

[koko 14,315]

9 hours ago, eatfood said:

I am in the process of adding back my plant pots (see my tank thread if you like).  maybe some more marbles too?  curing boredom was the biggest reason I added tank mates.

I find that moss balls give them something to do in my tank