Oranda not eating, not pooping, weak

[fanta_naranja 3]

• • * Ammonia Level(Tank) <.25
  • * Nitrite Level(Tank) 0
  • * Nitrate level(Tank) <5
  • * Ammonia Level(Tap) <.25
  • * Nitrite Level(Tap) 0
  • * Nitrate level(Tap) 0
  • * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) pH 8.0, can run the other tests if requested
  • * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) pH 8.0, no chloramines here
  • Other Required Info:
    • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? api drops
    • * Water temperature? 75
    • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? Main tank is 90 gallons, 8 months old
    • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Eheim Pro 4+ 600
    • * How often do you change the water and how much? 50% every 7 days
    • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? yesterday, 50%
    • * How many fish in the tank and their size? 2 Fish. A comet maybe 7 inches or more excluding the tail, and the Oranda maybe 4-5 inches.
    • * What kind of water additives or conditioners? Prime and a cap of stability every WC
    • * What do you feed your fish and how often? New Life Spectrum goldfish sinking pellets and Hikari purple bag with garlic guard.
    • * Any new fish added to the tank? no
    • * Any medications added to the tank? added prazi last week, and as symptoms worsened this week a medicated wonder shell and soaked food in metroplex because I suspected a gut infection.
    • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Followed instructions on the bottle
    • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? Honestly he looks very healthy just not eating. It might be my overactive imagination but I'm worried his belly might be more bulbous than usual
    • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? We have noticed the Oranda becoming weaker and more inactive over a few weeks. A lot of bottom sitting. Eating very little or refusing food and we haven't seen this fish defecate in a long long time. I think I saw it poop 2 weeks ago and it was the white and stringy type and very little of it. That's when I ordered the metroplex and I fed a few peas as well which he miraculously ate but I still havent seen him defecate.
      
      If he does show minor interest in food the Comet pushes him away and chases him around the tank. Normally the larger Comet harasses the Oranda a bit during and after feeding but not enough to make him give up and not get plenty of food.  The bullying has picked up due to the showing of weakness I feel. For this reason I have set up a 10 gallon quarantine tank for the first time. (hope it's large enough). he's swimming around a little bit, however he's shown no interest in food, even garlic soaked bloodworms. It might be my imagination  but his belly may be even more bulbous than usual and I imagine he really needs to have a bowel movement... Any ideas.
      
      edit: forgot to mention that I added 1tsp salt to the qt tank but other than that haven't medicated it since he didn't respond the the medications in the main tank.

Edited April 12, 2018 by fanta_naranja

[Arctic Mama 3,625]

How long/much metro did you give him?  He does look slightly ‘tight’ through the belly.  If you press on his stomach gentle is it firm like the tip of your nose or softer like your cheek?  

[fanta_naranja 3]

The directions said mix a level measure metroplex with a tablespoon of wetted food. over the 2 or 3 days I tried feeding this he only swallowed a couple (New Life Spectrum) pellets that I hand fed him.

As for his belly, it might be a little firm, but I don't really know where to poke or how hard to press without damaging him. The Comet is not giving me a good chance for comparison either... There is a solid ridge that visibly protrudes and starts just behind his dorsal fins and runs all the way to his anus. Is that normal?

Edited April 12, 2018 by fanta_naranja

[fanta_naranja 3]

Here are some pictures https://imgur.com/a/HJDuk

[fanta_naranja 3]

Got a second opinion on his belly: it definitely feels abnormally stiff.

[Arctic Mama 3,625]

Let’s do the metro in the water of a hospital tank - two solid weeks of it, please, with the heat gradually raised to 80 degrees if she can handle it without gasping.  Also add in the 1/2 a teaspoon of epsom salt and keep the water impeccably clean.  Feed lightly, just a mouthful of pellets twice a day if she will eat.

By about four days you should see some improvement if this is an infection caused by a gram positive bacteria OR parasitic (metro is good at both). If things still look the same with appetite and activity we may adjust treatment from there; but metro really needs to be run 10 days, minimum.

[fanta_naranja 3]

Ok. Thank you very much. I have a question about the metroplex. It says 1 level measure per 10 gallons. Repeat every 2 days. What would a good WC/dosing schedule be then to keep the tank clean. I do have cycled media in the HOB on there. So should I add for example a full measure after a 50% WC every 2 days, or only a half measure, or a full measure with a 100% WC.

At any rate I can keep epsom concentration at 1/2 tsp/10gal, and I assume I should maintain the salt concentration of 1tsp/10 gal as well?

[koko 14,335]

On 4/12/2018 at 6:45 PM, fanta_naranja said:

Ok. Thank you very much. I have a question about the metroplex. It says 1 level measure per 10 gallons. Repeat every 2 days. What would a good WC/dosing schedule be then to keep the tank clean. I do have cycled media in the HOB on there. So should I add for example a full measure after a 50% WC every 2 days, or only a half measure, or a full measure with a 100% WC.

At any rate I can keep epsom concentration at 1/2 tsp/10gal, and I assume I should maintain the salt concentration of 1tsp/10 gal as well?

So what I would do is treat it every 2 days but change the water 100% every 2nd day before the meds.

This way the meds and water are nice and clean every 2 days

[fanta_naranja 3]

Update after 4 days of treatment and 2nd WC: He made so much white stringy "poop" that it coated the filter intake, then we finally witnessed two real poops (not as big as we were hoping for). His(?) strength and activity are partly improved.  His appetite is still weak - he eats a few pellets at one meal and ignores them at the next, despite being alert. Right now he is having float problems (not pictured) with his head floating higher than his tail... hopefully that's resolved by morning.

Thanks so much for your help so far Arctic Mama

https://imgur.com/a/PTMDh

Edited April 17, 2018 by fanta_naranja

[koko 14,335]

The next thing I would do for this fish is get some Duckweed. Great food for the fish  and most goldfish can't resist it  

[fanta_naranja 3]

I will pick some up tomorrow. On a side note can you tell if he is a she?

[koko 14,335]

6 minutes ago, fanta_naranja said:

I will pick some up tomorrow. On a side note can you tell if he is a she?

From what I can see I would say a boy. Looks to have an inny butt and the pectoral fins look thick in the front  

[fanta_naranja 3]

Continuing with treatment as planned but now there is a white ring around his eye and it's beginning to swell. It's the same eye that's gotten popeye before... I can't see how this cropped up when he's in the hospital tank .

[fanta_naranja 3]

Checked for ammonia and according to the API drops it was almost .5, so I checked the tap and it was the same. Not sure what to make of that. I'm reading that it might be a false positive from chloride or ammonium. I added an extra dose of Prime.

[koko 14,335]

12 hours ago, fanta_naranja said:

Continuing with treatment as planned but now there is a white ring around his eye and it's beginning to swell. It's the same eye that's gotten popeye before... I can't see how this cropped up when he's in the hospital tank .

Can you get us some new photos

[fanta_naranja 3]

Here's a couple showing his eye. It actually looks better this morning than it did last night.  https://imgur.com/a/cUdeeL7

video: https://photos.app.goo.gl/D79AtLgxOouMdpub2

Edited April 20, 2018 by fanta_naranja

[Arctic Mama 3,625]

Sorry I wasn’t getting notifications on this topic.  

 

His eye looks maybe slightly swollen.  If you can, continue the metro and look into purchasing oxytetracycline.  It works extremely well for dropsy and plays nicely with metro, but is a little gentler than kanamycin (and more broad spectrum).  

 

Angelsplus is my fapvrite supplier of it:

http://www.angelsplus.com/MedsAntibiotic.htm

 

If your ammonia is getting that high I’d absolutely switch to daily water changes, as clean water to fight this infection is extremely important. If you really think it is the two I recommend using buckets to draw up water and let it sit out overnight with prime, THEN using that water to change out the tank.

 

But if it isn’t your tap, do switch to daily water changes.  Just redose the full amount of each med every time you water change.  It’s a little more costly but I’ve found it to be more effective.  Feed right before a water changes too, so that you can easily remove uneaten food and waste instead of letting it break down all night.

Edited April 20, 2018 by Arctic Mama

[fanta_naranja 3]

Would you suggest I add Spectrogram if I have that on hand? Or is that too harsh as well?

 

edit: also if I let the tap water sit overnight with Prime it should read 0 ammonia in the morning? I'll have two 5-gallon buckets filled to the brim and have to put him in the 4 gallon bucket during the WC. Good thing I've got all these buckets!

Edited April 20, 2018 by fanta_naranja

[Arctic Mama 3,625]

I’m not sure what’s in spectrogram, can you tell me the ingredients?  I recommend the oxy because it seems especially effective with dropsy.  But there are a few other gram negatives that could possibly work as well.

 

As for the off gassing, I’m not sure if the water will offgas or not, but adding prime right before antibiotics can affect their efficacy, so that gives the prime time to neutralize and bind to the ammonia and stabilize, if you’re having major fluctuations in your water source, without shocking the fish or accidentally binding to the antibiotics instead.  

 

To just straight up test your tapwater after off gassing, don’t add prime.  Just run it into a bucket and let it sit overnight, then measure pH, hardness, nitrates, and ammonia and compare it to a fresh sample from the tap on all those same parameters.  Make sense?

[fanta_naranja 3]

Spectrogram is Kanamycin Sulfate and Nitrofurazone. The oxytetracicline is $40 with shipping though :|

That sort of makes sense... You're saying let it sit overnight so there is no need to add Prime as long as ammonia is reading 0 by the morning?

Edited April 20, 2018 by fanta_naranja

[fanta_naranja 3]

The white and stringy stuff just keeps coming. Going into days 9 and 10 of treatment. Don't have any degassed water yet but I will by tomorrow hopefully

Edited April 21, 2018 by fanta_naranja

[fanta_naranja 3]

OK now to test my degassed water

• pH (tap)-                             7.6 ?
• pH (24 hours later)-          8.0 ?
• GH (tap)-                             16
• GH (24 hours later)-          19
• Nitrates (tap)-                      5
• Nitrates (24 hours later)-   unchanged
• Ammonia (tap)-                   .5   ????
• Ammonia(24 hours later)- unchanged

Because reading color charts is the hardest thing to do in fishkeeping I'm uploading pictures so someone can check my work.

https://imgur.com/a/wJAdQn7 . So is that good news or bad news?

Edited April 22, 2018 by fanta_naranja

[fanta_naranja 3]

My understanding is that any chlorine/chloramines would have evaporated in 24 hours, so the ammonia reading in water that's been left out must really be coming from ammonia. I have read that a standard dose of Prime will detoxify up to 1ppm ammonia, so what I'm going to have to do is keep using Prime, not go above the standard dose, and give the Prime some time to bind to the ammonia/nitrates before adding any medicine. I'm thinking 10 minutes before adding meds.

[Arctic Mama 3,625]

Yeah, that looks like ammonia and not an off gassing issue, though the pH swing isn’t awesome.  It’s not bad enough I’d say you absolutely have to offgas it to do a safe water change, and definitely add prime and wait a bit before redosing meds.

 

The Spectrogram would be good to do alone, but I wouldn’t do it with metro.  That’s a lot of meds at once.  I’d still go for the oxy but if it is too expensive I understand that.  Did you post a picture of the stringy poop?  I’d like to see in a separate dish or help up to the glass with really good light, please

[fanta_naranja 3]

The white poop was thicker before but now comes out in very fine whitish/clear strands that can be seen if you're looking for it. I took pictures of him pooping but it is so clear it did not show up in the photos. However it can be seen building up on the filter intake. Here's a picture of that: https://imgur.com/a/j24iEpK

 

I should note that he does make normal poop now, though not very much of it since he is eating sparingly. Sometimes it's interspersed with the white stuff.

Making a liar out of me, he let me get a picture as I was typing this:  https://imgur.com/a/Xe61PZL . A strand  can be seen trailing him.

To be clear your recommendation is to stop metro at 10 days and continue with a different form of treatment (in this case spectrogram) until the white poop stops? The Spectrogram suggests treating every other day for 5 days (meaning 3 treatments). I'm worried that the stress of treatment (and being in the small bare QT) is perpetuating the problem we are trying to fix. But I might be just a worrywart.