Tumor (?) on my beautiful ryukin :(

[exoskeletron 2]

Hello fabulous and friendly fish enthusiasts! I don't post here much but the last time I was having health issues with my goldfish you guys were able to point me in the right direction and my fish eventually healed thanks to your advice.

Unfortunately I have a new issue. My ryukin has what looks like a tumor on the left side of his body right where the caudal peduncle meets the caudal fin. I had noticed a bump there pretty much since I got him about a year ago. I thought it was just a slight malformation because it didn't look red or sore, and never bled or anything. It was just kind of a weird shape under his scales. However, last week he was acting lethargic and stressed (as well as clamped fins and kind of tipping backwards), so I looked at him more closely and it looked like the bump had actually split open. I believe I was seeing raw tissue in the split opening. So either it split open from swelling or he scraped it on one of the rocks in his tank. I immediately removed the rock so now the tank has nothing in it but a round vase ornament and a fake plant. Then I did a 75% water change and slowly added 2 tspn/salt per gallon over the next 24 hours, and turned the temp up to 80F. Since then he has been behaving normally with no fin clamping or lethargy. BUT the tumor is still there and looks pretty gross. The split seems to have closed up but the tumor and the area of the caudal fins around the tumor has become opaque. The tumor itself looks kind of dark orange. In the not so awesome image below I have circled the opaque region in black and the tumor in grey. I can faintly see a few red capillary veins in the side of his caudal fin that has the tumor. Please let me know any suggestions you have. He is a big, beautiful fish and I'm devastated that he has this painful (I assume) problem to deal with. I thin its time to get them a 55 gallon tank but I'm assuming that living in a 40gallon tank isn't what gave him the tumor (if its a tumor).  See water conditions etc. below. Maybe worth mentioning: After doing a water change the nitrates are always at 0, but by the time I do the next water change the following week the nitrates are up to ~5ppm each time.

Test Results for the Following: * Ammonia Level(Tank): 0 * Nitrite Level(Tank): 0  * Nitrate level(Tank): 0-5 * Ammonia Level(Tap): 0 * Nitrite Level(Tap): 0 * Nitrate level(Tap): 0 * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines): 7.6 * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines): 7.6 Other Required Info: * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API drops * Water temperature? 80F at the moment * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 40gal, about 1.5 years * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Aquaclear 70 and Aqueon 50(?) * How often do you change the water and how much? 50% weekly with 75% one week per month

* How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? its been exactly one week since the 75% water change * How many fish in the tank and their size? 2, each fish is about 3.5 inches long * What kind of water additives or conditioners? AquaSafe Plus * What do you feed your fish and how often? varied diet of hikari lionhead sinking pellets, peas, blanched spinach/kale, rarely a boiled and chopped wax worm, sometimes algae wafers * Any new fish added to the tank? no * Any medications added to the tank? not currently * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank.Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. only salt - 2tspn/gallon, started one week ago. before that there was nothing in the tank but water and the AquaSafe Plus * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? the hideous tumor, a few visible veins in the caudal fin, opaqueness (almost looks like thickening or stiffening) of the caudal fin near the tumor * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? lethargy, clamped fins and tilting backwards in the water before starting treatment Thank you SO much for reading!!

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[shakaho 6,312]

Tumors usually cause no discomfort to the fish.  I think it more likely that he has a bacterial infection.  I suggest you take him out of the tank, get a good picture of the lesion, and swab it with hydrogen peroxide.  Do this only once, but follow up with daily swabs with betadine or other iodine.  

Continue the salt treatment and increase your water changes to 75% weekly.

[exoskeletron 2]

7 hours ago, shakaho said:

Tumors usually cause no discomfort to the fish.  I think it more likely that he has a bacterial infection.  I suggest you take him out of the tank, get a good picture of the lesion, and swab it with hydrogen peroxide.  Do this only once, but follow up with daily swabs with betadine or other iodine.  

Continue the salt treatment and increase your water changes to 75% weekly.

Thanks for the quick reply and the suggestion! So I'll change 75% of the water today in the tank, take him out, get a picture, and swab his lesion-thing with hydrogen peroxide. Then tomorrow I'll take him out of the water again and do an iodine swab. Do you think I should do the iodine swabs every day for like a week? longer?   Will this cause him significant stress to be taken out of the water repeatedly?

Thanks for your help!

[shakaho 6,312]

Yes.  do them daily for a week.  By then we can tell if that treatment works.  He won't like being out of water, but he'll get over it.   If you lay him on a wet towel and put another wet cloth over his head, he may relax and lay still.

[exoskeletron 2]

On 12/15/2017 at 1:17 PM, shakaho said:

Yes.  do them daily for a week.  By then we can tell if that treatment works.  He won't like being out of water, but he'll get over it.   If you lay him on a wet towel and put another wet cloth over his head, he may relax and lay still.

Thank you for the advice with using wet towels. It totally worked. He was flipping out (literally) until I set him down and put the towel on his face and then he laid still. I used a cotton swab to dab a few drops of hydrogen peroxide on the sore/tumor. He was only out of the water for maybe 30 seconds. I assume I was not supposed to let the hydrogen peroxide sit on the wound for any length of time as that would involve having him out of the tank for a while. So the hydrogen peroxide rinsed right off after I put him in the tank. I did take a picture but it literally looks like nothing is there. I'll post another one tomorrow if I can get a better one. He is now in the tank with his fins clamped :(, I'm assuming because the peroxide application hurt. I burst into tears as soon as I got him back in the tank - he's such a trooper but I know he's in pain. 

Quick question: if he has an abscess under his skin, will dabbing peroxide or iodine on his skin actually do anything? I just want to be clear that this is not an open wound as far as I can tell. 

Edited December 18, 2017 by exoskeletron

[exoskeletron 2]

Ok so I did the first treatment with iodine today. Pretty nasty stuff! After application (first pic) his wound/bump turned brownish and the slime coat all turned white and started stripping off... Looks extremely painful. It looks like I poured battery acid on my fish and my heart is breaking for him. The second picture is from before treatment. If I do this iodine treatment everyday for the next week I feel like my fish is going to be dead. Can anyone let me know if this is looking right? I felt the bump today and it seems less like a fluid-filled sack and more like a there is a bone under the surface here, like maybe his tail bone is deformed. I don't know. 

The iodine I used on him was an iodine tincture, with 2% iodine. 

[shakaho 6,312]

If it bothers you, don't do it.

[exoskeletron 2]

56 minutes ago, shakaho said:

If it bothers you, don't do it.

Maybe I shouldn't mention my emotions in my posts. woops!    The issue certainly isn't whether or not it bothers me - its the health of my fish. I'm just asking if this is how it's supposed to look. Shakaho, I assume you've done this to other fish. Is the 2% iodine tincture the right thing to use? Did your fish turn white in the spots you put the iodine? I'm really not trying to annoy you, I just want to know how to save my fish

[koko 14,376]

iodine will change any skin a different color and will do a very good cleaning of that spot. That is why it looks that way.

What I would do is just let the fish be for a day and see how it is in 24 hours. Its not going to hurt your fish unless it gets in the gills or left on to long.  

How is the fish acting? 

[exoskeletron 2]

1 minute ago, koko said:

iodine will change any skin a different color and will do a very good cleaning of that spot. That is why it looks that way.

What I would do is just let the fish be for a day and see how it is in 24 hours. Its not going to hurt your fish unless it gets in the gills or left on to long.  

How is the fish acting? 

wow! Thank you so much for the quick response Koko. His fins aren't clamped and he's acting pretty normal right now. The area of his tail fins right under the tumor/bump is mostly white and looks raw :-/   But if the iodine won't do actually burn him or anything then I think he's ok. Do recommend that I skip a day tomorrow and then do it again the next day? Shakaho's suggestion was daily for a week. 

[koko 14,376]

13 hours ago, exoskeletron said:

wow! Thank you so much for the quick response Koko. His fins aren't clamped and he's acting pretty normal right now. The area of his tail fins right under the tumor/bump is mostly white and looks raw :-/   But if the iodine won't do actually burn him or anything then I think he's ok. Do recommend that I skip a day tomorrow and then do it again the next day? Shakaho's suggestion was daily for a week. 

It can burn off the slim coat. Most meds will do that to a fish. But I would go every other day. 

On one had though it doesn't look like a cyst or anything. Im wondering if you can while you are swabbing, get a photo a close one for me  

[exoskeletron 2]

Merry Christmas everybody!

Although not a super merry xmas for my fish unfortunately. So here's the latest:

I've done 3 iodine swabs on his bump/wound/growth and although he doesn't appear to be in pain, the wound has not shrunk or changed much. It looks pretty gross from the effect of the iodine on his slime coat, so I'm going to let him be and not swab him for a few days so I can see what the area looks like when the slime coat is fully regenerated. Then I'll get a good picture of the wound site.

However, today I see that his other caudal fin (the right side of the fin) has split and the edges of the split look a little jagged and white. Also, he and the other fish seem to be twitching a little bit, like maybe there is something that is hurting their skin (?). I haven't added any medication or more salt so I'm guessing its from nitrates, but the nitrates in the tank are basically stuck at 5ppm. It's hard to tell if the reading is 5ppm or 10 because I'm using the API drops and the difference between 5 and 10 ppm is a faint difference in the shade of orange... However, I am changing about 75% of the water per week (over multiple water changes).

Anyway, I'm adding a 3rd teaspoon of salt per gallon to the tank over the next 24 hours to help with the split fin hopefully. I'll do another big water change tomorrow. 

Let me know if there are any suggestions. 

[shakaho 6,312]

They may have flukes.  Treat with praziquantel.  It won't hurt them even  if they don't have flukes.

[exoskeletron 2]

Hey everybody,

I wasn't sure if I should add to this old post or make a new one. The tumor (or whatever it is) is still there on my fish. It has no gotten smaller, but maybe grown if anything. The fish doesn't seem to be in pain, but his tail looks bad and I'm noticing that now the rays descending from the tumor are growing weirdly and a hole has formed in the fin

I have some new pictures. The quality still sucks, but I think I would have to buy a new camera to get better pictures since I'm just using my iphone. 

 

Please let me know if you have any new ideas or questions.  I have no idea what to do. Maybe the "tumor" needs to be lanced? Maybe the fish needs antibacterial medicated fish food (not that he would eat it). Let me know what you think. My husband is basically saying I need to find a way to treat the tumor or euthanize my fish   Not that it's his decision but I'm feeling a lot of pressure.

[koko 14,376]

how is the fish doing now?