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titch

Piggy - dark patches, acne & lumpy scale

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Hello all. Just want to revisit this again please. 

I'm back from holiday & I'd like to go shopping for some new fish but want to check with you guys if Piggy is ok to welcome some company first...

I first referenced Piggy's dark patches & scales in this thread back in February:

https://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/topic/125875-piggy-was-feeling-left-out/i

And mentioned a raised patch in another thread, with pics in this post in April (I said "One of them is slightly raised - not in a pineconed way, think how your finger nail looks if you bashed it with a hammer!! Lol! Kinda looks like it's going to drop off, but as yet it hasn't").

https://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/topic/125579-help-part-2/&do=findComment&comment=2016937

Test Results for the Following:
* Ammonia Level(Tank) – 0ppm
* Nitrite Level(Tank) – 0ppm
* Nitrate level(Tank) – 20ppm
 
* Ammonia Level(Tap) – 0.25ppm
* Nitrite Level(Tap) – 0ppm
* Nitrate level(Tap) – 5ppm. Nitrates out my tap are generally 20-40ppm so I use a Pozzani filter to filter the water into a water barrel which I treat with Prime and usually let aerate for 24hrs before adding to the tank. The ‘tap’ figures above are the levels in the water that has been filtered, treated and stood.
 
* Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) – 8.2ph
 
* Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) – 7.4ph (usually raises to approx 8.0 after being aerated for 24hrs)
 
Other Required Info:
* Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API freshwater master kit (drops)
 
* Water temperature? – 25C (77F)
 
* Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 6'x2'x2' (approx. 600L) running for 2 months (previously a Juwel Rio 240 running for 2.5yrs)
 
* What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? 2 x Fluval FX6 (3500lph) - 1 set up on 01-Dec (previously on the Juwel Rio) other 1 set up on 13-May
 
* How often do you change the water and how much? 200 litres 3 times a week (Tuesday, Thursday & Sunday)
 
* How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change?  Yesterday - 400 litres (higher than normal due to returning from a 9 day holiday)
 
* How many fish in the tank and their size? 1 only - Chocolate Oranda “Piggy” approx. 3 years old (6” body), 3 nerite snails
 
* What kind of water additives or conditioners? Prime (also have a wonder shell in the tank)
 
* What do you feed your fish and how often? Hikari Saki purple bag, Tetra Gold Japan, Hikari Oranda Gold (saturated using a pellet pump), peas a couple of times a week, occasional veggie usually lettuce/cucumber, frozen bloodworm/daphnia
 
* Any new fish added to the tank? No
 
* Any medications added to the tank? 
None at present

* List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. 

Fluke Solve to previous main tank 29-Oct to 12-Nov (2 weeks) Salt @ 0.3%

Fluke Solve & Metroplex to previous main tank 15-Apr to 29-Apr (2 weeks)

Fluke Solve added to new tank 20-May for 3 weeks (fresh FS replaced with every WC)
 
* Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? 
Lumpy/raised scale on left side on lateral line (sometimes had a white/grey colour to it), uneven/bumpy scale on back right towards base of tail, pitted face like acne (on cheeks) which sometimes have a white hue to them, several darker patches to body, the odd shimmy/shaking of body and/or head (not a regular occurrence). There has been no flashing on objects/substrate witnessed
 
* Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.?
Feeding fine, eating normally. 

Meds on hand include - Fluke Solve, Oxymav B, Acriflavine, Metroplex, Kanaplex, Sulfaplex, Focus, Triple Sulfa, Furan-2, Silver (250ppm), Epsom & salt

There's quite a few pics I'm afraid - hopefully they provide you with enough of an insight. 

Also, just for info, I came home to algae!! Although it's not the pretty green stuff, it's brown. But at least the Nerites finally have something to munch on!

EC0EFFF2-E3D4-41EF-84C3-071781C295C6_zps

73B812F6-FDB8-493F-8CD9-1B5EFDBBBB1E_zps

43FE9747-39E1-4477-9F53-03B4C2E8699C_zps

47925705-6AF9-44F8-8DBF-9B82241382C1_zps

84051E4B-4160-4DA2-B28D-41DC804EE6C6_zps

FBCE4F31-78AB-4D4D-A786-FFD7BE1D6F52_zps

601E7A73-E907-46CD-AFB7-AE18E68685EA_zps

CCD9D9CD-1E17-49DF-A583-1FF70090A085_zps

C083E43F-E6F5-4A0A-9097-A2F18088FA5F_zps

5A805CA1-C46E-48E7-A439-3B74FE53F7B4_zps

58EF9E50-4574-4391-9FFE-686DF52CCCF1_zps

DD911600-5447-4FD3-AB95-6264B60BC94F_zps

B7F53CF7-7E2D-493D-A3B5-7B004926BFF7_zps

A10C2FD7-5143-490E-9036-2AB7687E221F_zps

D2AFBFC6-9EB3-4BE1-A4D1-2C6D60A1847F_zps

4DBE9C87-FE88-4AE8-B1A6-499A1A197389_zps

E4BD9109-0B91-41F1-AEED-8911694BA342_zps

D9A75E48-8A08-4B0A-8B76-6BBA4F48D22A_zps

 

Edited by titch

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And the obligatory poop shots!

A mix of long clear bubbly string, clear string with a reddish brown line through the middle, green string & giant green/brown slugs. 

CE718F14-4156-462E-A5D6-3485289C1BE2_zps

69030CD8-1DD0-4DE1-B00F-80FC1366F1CB_zps

5545CF9A-6EF7-4E06-9296-02F14C469EAA_zps

4175B320-0551-4642-80CA-6BCB3D901BA6_zps

77CD253E-76DA-496E-935D-650DD7E130B1_zps

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Poor little guy! First things first - I think Acriflavine is a good route to go to eliminate a bunch of potential parasitic issues.  I'd run that in the quarantine water for 7-10 days.  Please let us know how he is responding by day 4 or so, as that will determine the duration of the cycle.  We may also need to try other parasitic treatments but this is a good antiseptic.

 

No salt in with this, but warm water (78 if he can tolerate it) and good water circulation/aeration.

Edited by Arctic Mama

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22 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Poor little guy! First things first - I think Acriflavine is a good route to go to eliminate a bunch of potential parasitic issues.  I'd run that in the quarantine water for 7-10 days.  Please let us know how he is responding by day 4 or so, as that will determine the duration of the cycle.  We may also need to try other parasitic treatments but this is a good antiseptic.

 

No salt in with this, but warm water (78 if he can tolerate it) and good water circulation/aeration.

Thanks for this Taryl, really appreciate your response (I'm sure you're very busy family wise & packing).

My QT tank is only 40 litres & the Acriflavine says to dose 10ml per 750 litres - so only 1/2 ml? Is that right?

If so, it says to repeat after 10 days. However I assume you'd want me to do bucket to bucket everyday, right? So should I just redose everyday instead?

This is my Acriflavine 

068360F6-56EC-4BCD-B550-96C21FAD17F7_zps

2AEFC7A4-F829-44E4-A4C5-D07A0957C6B7_zps

Aside from the 3 Nerites, Piggy is the only thing in the tank. With this in mind, could I dose the tank? What effect does Acriflavine have on the cycle/plants/snails? Or is that a big no no?

When you say other parasitic treatments, what are you thinking? Just want to check if I need to get anything (can take a few weeks if I need to import).

Edited by titch

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The acriflavine will nuke the plants and filter, don't do it!  Only in quarantine.  Don't do the Nettie's either.  You can run colloidal silver in the tank or do a really thorough cleaning, but the acriflavine is no good in there.  I'd redose daily in the bucket, yes, and half a ml.

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Welcome back Titch!!!  Hope you had a nice time!!! Hope Piggy feels better!!!

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36 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

The acriflavine will nuke the plants and filter, don't do it!  Only in quarantine.  Don't do the Nettie's either.  You can run colloidal silver in the tank or do a really thorough cleaning, but the acriflavine is no good in there.  I'd redose daily in the bucket, yes, and half a ml.

Ok, I'll get him QT'd & dosed up in the morning. 

Just so I'm clear - nothing but the Acriflavine right? No salt or anything?

He'll have an airstone & heater set at 25*C (correct?), but no filter and I'll do 100% WC everyday, repeating the full dose each time. 

Could you confirm what I'm treating for please and also if whatever it is in in the water column or actually on Piggy (this is my round about way of asking if you're going to get me to nuke the tank and equipment)?

My silver is 250ppm, tank is 600 litres - how many drops do you suggest?

27 minutes ago, DawnMichele said:

Welcome back Titch!!!  Hope you had a nice time!!! Hope Piggy feels better!!!

Thanks Dawn. Had a lovely time but nice to be back.  Just want to get my tank sorted so Piggy can have a few friends!

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The acriflavine will nuke any fungus, ectoparasite, likely much of the surface bacteria on the fish, and it should also impede replication of any viral lesions.  We don't know exactly what is going on and this is a good first step that doesn't involve antibiotics, which we may not need.  I'm suspecting parasites or a virus, but because I can't examine the fish and don't have any scrapings and a microscope view I can't be sure.  So this is an opening treatment option that will help me narrow down what my be causing this.  I have no idea if it is in the water column or filters.  But viruses and bacteria need hosts and if you can't nuke your system at least you can make it inhospitable to them.  If other tankmates are showing symptoms we will have to quarantine everyone and treat and tear down the tank, so let me know if that's the case.  

 

You have to nudge Koko on the colloidal silver voodoo, she has all sorts of dosage stuff I haven't memorized :lol:

 

25C is good on the water but bump it up slowly and keep aeration high.  If you see surface gasping let me know.  And yes, redose it daily with water changes.  Only acriflavine.  

Edited by Arctic Mama

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15 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

If other tankmates are showing symptoms we will have to quarantine everyone and treat and tear down the tank, so let me know if that's the case.  

Piggy is the only fish in the tank. Could the Nerites also be hosts? Not sure what symptoms they would display if any at all? Do you want me to remove/QT them as well, would that ensure no hosts are left in the tank & whatever it is will die? How would I treat them?

29 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

You have to nudge Koko on the colloidal silver voodoo, she has all sorts of dosage stuff I haven't memorized :lol:

:teeheeOh @koko I need your help. Again. 

21 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

25C is good on the water but bump it up slowly and keep aeration high.  If you see surface gasping let me know.  And yes, redose it daily with water changes.  Only acriflavine.  

The main tank is already at 25C so he's already acclimatised to that kind of level. 

5 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

Please let us know how he is responding by day 4 or so, as that will determine the duration of the cycle.

Is there anything specific I should be looking for? What do I definitely NOT want to see & if I do I should inform you ASAP?

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6 hours ago, titch said:
7 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

You have to nudge Koko on the colloidal silver voodoo, she has all sorts of dosage stuff I haven't memorized :lol:

:teeheeOh @koko I need your help. Again. 

I would go with a Teaspoon of it :) 

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3 hours ago, koko said:

I would go with a Teaspoon of it :) 

Don't suppose you could translate that to drops for me please? :whistle

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19 minutes ago, titch said:

 

4 hours ago, koko said:

I would go with a Teaspoon of it :) 

Don't suppose you could translate that to drops for me please? :whistle

Sorry, also how often should I redose? Every time I do a WC (currently 200 litres 3 times a week)?

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In addition to my queries above (about Nerites & monitoring) my husband has just asked me if you're aware of the previous issues I had with Winston & Dad. I just assumed you were, which is my bad (I forget how many D&D threads are on the go at once, and you're not likely to remember who's who & what's happened before).

Could this virus or whatever it is with Piggy have been the root cause of those problems or indeed be as a result of them? Winston started out with mysterious red marks on body & blood in the tail which we tried treating for over 6 months, eventually ending in dropsy. Dad also succumbed to Dropsy but also had a significant lump on one side.

Edited by titch

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I'm back...

Not sure if this is related or not. Just done the WC on the main tank, sitting with a cuppa just watching the tank & see this!!

If it hadn't have been wiggling I'd have thought it was an uneaten bloodworm. I have a video but can't seem to load it to imgur (and photobucket doesn't seem to work anymore?).

I've only found one but have no idea what it is or if this could be the cause of my issues. It's maybe about 1cm long or very slightly longer.

Thoughts?

m6k8Qej.jpg

Edited by titch

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On July 8, 2017 at 1:39 AM, titch said:

 

Sorry, also how often should I redose? Every time I do a WC (currently 200 litres 3 times a week)?

Well Im thinking it would be close to about 150 drops :o 

I would do it twice ( one now and one in a week.) 

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On July 9, 2017 at 8:46 AM, titch said:

I'm back...

Not sure if this is related or not. Just done the WC on the main tank, sitting with a cuppa just watching the tank & see this!!

If it hadn't have been wiggling I'd have thought it was an uneaten bloodworm. I have a video but can't seem to load it to imgur (and photobucket doesn't seem to work anymore?).

I've only found one but have no idea what it is or if this could be the cause of my issues. It's maybe about 1cm long or very slightly longer.

Thoughts?

m6k8Qej.jpg

 

No thoughts of what it is. but my thought when I saw this is :yikes 

I hope AM or Sharon can help here. 

for Videos I would us youtube. Photobucket is now charging ppl to use it :o 

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6 minutes ago, koko said:

Well Im thinking it would be close to about 150 drops :o 

I would do it twice ( one now and one in a week.) 

Seriously?! 150 drops?! :thud

Wow. Ok. I've done my Sunday WC today. Next ones will be Tuesday, Thursday & next Sunday. I'll dose again on Sunday after that WC.

But again... Wow. Best order some more!

7 minutes ago, koko said:

 

No thoughts of what it is. but my thought when I saw this is :yikes 

I hope AM or Sharon can help here. 

for Videos I would us youtube hun. Photobucket is now charging ppl to use it :o 

Also my reaction! I've been googling it all afternoon but will wait to see what Taryl & Sharon think.

Also, sorry to pester, but could someone please take a look at my earlier queries please (quoted below)?

On 7 July 2017 at 10:59 PM, titch said:

Piggy is the only fish in the tank. Could the Nerites also be hosts? Not sure what symptoms they would display if any at all? Do you want me to remove/QT them as well, would that ensure no hosts are left in the tank & whatever it is will die? How would I treat them?

In relation to monitoring Piggy...

On 7 July 2017 at 10:59 PM, titch said:

Is there anything specific I should be looking for? What do I definitely NOT want to see & if I do I should inform you ASAP?

On 8 July 2017 at 10:52 AM, titch said:

 

In addition to my queries above (about Nerites & monitoring) my husband has just asked me if you're aware of the previous issues I had with Winston & Dad. I just assumed you were, which is my bad (I forget how many D&D threads are on the go at once, and you're not likely to remember who's who & what's happened before).

Could this virus or whatever it is with Piggy have been the root cause of those problems or indeed be as a result of them? Winston started out with mysterious red marks on body & blood in the tail which we tried treating for over 6 months, eventually ending in dropsy. Dad also succumbed to Dropsy but also had a significant lump on one side.

 

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Tell me what you observe after a few days in treatment and I'll tell you if I think it's working or not.

 

It could be related to what your other fish had, maybe not.  Tough to say.  I'm keeping it in mind.

 

The red worm looks like a tubifex?

Edited by Arctic Mama

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6 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

Tell me what you observe after a few days in treatment and I'll tell you if I think it's working or not.

 

It could be related to what your other fish had, maybe not.  Tough to say.  I'm keeping it in mind.

 

The red worm looks like a tubifex?

Thanks Taryl. He's been in the Acriflavine for almost 48hrs so I'll check back in on Wednesday. So far nothing exciting to report. He's active & feeding well though. 

3 hours ago, koko said:

I agree - defo doesn't look like that.

3 hours ago, koko said:

Im thinking this is what she has.. It looks exactly the same :o

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/tapewmfwf.htm

 

2005081302-redworm.jpg

It does look a bit like that. I'll try to post the video & another pic or two for you. 

Could it also be a chironomid larvae though? It's mentioned on the WWM site on this page, just over half way down - the title of the section is Red Worm ID (Royal Plec) 11/19/07.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fwsubwebindex/fwaqinsectfaqs.htm

We've had the windows & doors open a lot here & I've kept the tank hood open to aid with keeping the temp reduced. Is it possible a midge has laid eggs in the tank?

Edited by titch

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Note: it's not as lively this morning but it is still alive (yes, I still have the little creature).

Video taken when I first captured it. Photo taken just now.

IpiFPJJ.jpg

Edited by titch

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Agreed. In the video it doesn't look like a tubifex.  Now I'm surthe acriflavine was a good idea and some levamisole might not hurt either.

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8 hours ago, titch said:

Could it also be a chironomid larvae though? It's mentioned on the WWM site on this page, just over half way down - the title of the section is Red Worm ID (Royal Plec) 11/19/07.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fwsubwebindex/fwaqinsectfaqs.htm

We've had the windows & doors open a lot here & I've kept the tank hood open to aid with keeping the temp reduced. Is it possible a midge has laid eggs in the tank?

So not a midge larvae then?

You think it's related to Piggy's lumps & bumps?

42 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Agreed. In the video it doesn't look like a tubifex.  Now I'm surthe acriflavine was a good idea and some levamisole might not hurt either.

Levamisole is another new one to me. Is it an active ingredient in something or stand alone med? Is it readily available in the uk - what should I look for?

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1 hour ago, titch said:

So not a midge larvae then?

You think it's related to Piggy's lumps & bumps?

Levamisole is another new one to me. Is it an active ingredient in something or stand alone med? Is it readily available in the uk - what should I look for?

I do think so . I looked up on the web and it says that in the UK you have to get a prescription from a Vet. :o

What else can we use then? hummm...

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