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RobertTheOranda

Large lionhead seems to be badly constipated. Treatment underway. Possible gut bacteria? Similar symptoms caused dropsy in another goldfish I had.

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When it rains it pours it seems.. Please note, Creamsicle is already in a hospital tank and being treated with epsom salts and antibiotics.

  • Test Results for the Following:
    • * Ammonia Level(Tank) 0
    • * Nitrite Level(Tank) - 0
    • * Nitrate level(Tank)  - 0-5 PPM (10 gallon) Hospital tank
    • * Ammonia Level(Tap)  - 0
    • * Nitrite Level(Tap)  - 0
    • * Nitrate level(Tap) 0
    • * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7 to 7.2
    • * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)    7.6 or 7.8
    • Other Required Info:
      • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops?  Api master kit
      • * Water temperature?  -  76F - raised up from 68 slowly over a few days.
      • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running?  10 gallon hospital tank for medication purposes. Previously in a year old 40 gallon tank with 3 other fish with no symptoms. 
      • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? SunSun 304b, should be around 350 GPH
      • * How often do you change the water and how much? ~75% water changes weekly.
  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? His main tank was cleaned on Sunday and 75% of the water changed.
  • * How many fish in the tank and their size? 1x LG Faintail 4.5" long, 1x LG Lionhead 4", 1sm Oranda, 3". Creamsicle (the subject) is a HUGE lionhead, 5.5" or so.
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners? Seachem Safe
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often? Give the brand, type of food (sinking/floating pellets, gel food, steamed vegetable, etc.), and how frequently you feed each. Hikari Lionhead 1x daily
  • * Any new fish added to the tank? No
  • * Any medications added to the tank? In the 10g hospital tank I am treating with Epsom Salt at 1/4 tsp per 10 gallons and the appropriate dose of metronidazole.
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment.  Creamsicle has ben treated with Salt in the past just for preventative reasons. 
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? He's bloated, his/her vent is huge.
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? None

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I will be speaking about two different fish here. Cornbread and Creamsicle. Creamsicle is the subject of this post, and cornbread is another fish that also had horrible bloating that I was treating with reduced food and peas.

I apologize for how scattered the above information is. I have 3 40g breeders with 10 fancys scattered across them. One of tanks is domestic ranchus. I noticed one (Cornbread) of them was really bloated and a little buoyant in the back. I tried treating with peas, fasting, epsom salt etc. Things improved a bit, the bouyancy went away, but he was still bloated. I noticed last week that he was pineconing a bit and thats when I realized he had dropsy and the constipation was really actually causing issues. I ordered metronidazole to treat the dropsy and what I thought was a bad gut bacteria. The antibotics came last night but unfortunately Cornbread was unresponsive when I got home from work. 

Creamsicle is a large lionhead that lived in another tank across the room from the other fish. However hes always been HUGE, so to see the bloat I really had to look at him. He still looks healthy, no buoyancy problems.

I couldn't decide if they were constipated or egg bound. On Saturday night I moved Creamsicle (The alive fish) over to a tank with a mature male and female to try and see if she was eggbound. 2-3 days later and no improvement. 

She has to be constipated. So i began treating for that.

I stated by adding 1 tbs of epsom salt to her 40g tank with the other fish. This was temporary till I got the antibiotics. This was Sunday night.

Last night I gave her a 15 min dip in 3 quarts of water with 1/4th tsp of epsom salt and a double strength dose of metronidazole.

After the dip she was placed into a 10 gallon hospital tank with 1/4 tsp of epsom salt with a regular dose of metronidazole.

As of last night:

Her poop is often clear with maybe a bit of mucus in it, it often hangs off her butt. The strand was 1-2" long.  I didn't notice this in the previous days... Maybe its a bit of progress? 

She REFUSED to eat both peas and Repashy Soilent Green. I did mix metronidazole with both at first but even after that she refused a non-medicated regular pea. The peas were still somewhat firm. I will try cooking them further tonight.

I tried feeding a piece of broccoli today, she wasn't interested.

Is there anything else I should try? Any other advice on how to get her to eat the peas? 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As always - Thank you all so much for the help. It really is appreciated. 

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Can we have photos :please 

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I just took these, after her bath.

VJZyIR5l.jpgmTY1or7l.jpgSVlzoVVl.jpg

Best pic I could get of the vent.

fSdGLfrl.jpgodr1jVt.gifNfzH1Xml.jpg

 

Some good news though. This was the poop in the tank after I came home from work today. She also ate 3-4 peas with no problem today. So hopefully that works its way though tonight.

9qI7x28l.jpg

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She looks dropsied to me. Not mild either. Moderate. I don't think she's constipated. Might be a bit eggy? It's the right time of the year for that. The vent may spell eggs she tried to express but failed. Retained eggs may have caused infection? Constipated fish almost never refuse food. Sick fish do, though. Hopefully a moderator comes along soon.

Dips in metronidazole cannot possibly be of use. The medication takes a long time to work completely and that's when the fish is in the medicated water 24/7. Two weeks is a usual full course.

You might want to take them off that food. Many people report buoyancy issues in fish fed Hikari foods. The ingredients don't look very good to me either. Lots of fillers. Spreading the feedings out to a few tiny feedings a day rather than just once a day may help too. 

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Hi there!

 

Do keep the metronidazole in the tank or feed it, no dips.  Am I misunderstanding how you were dosing it?

 

Is the dropsy symmetric or asymmetrical?  It looks uneven/asymmetrical to me, which makes being evgbound less likely.  An infected swim bladder or other organ infection could be the cause, but not constipation or impaction since you saw peas in her feces.

 

When you press on her stomach does it feel squishy or soft/mushy like the hollow of your cheek or firmer like your chin?

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9 hours ago, mjfromga said:

She looks dropsied to me. Not mild either. Moderate. I don't think she's constipated. Might be a bit eggy? It's the right time of the year for that. The vent may spell eggs she tried to express but failed. Retained eggs may have caused infection? Constipated fish almost never refuse food. Sick fish do, though. Hopefully a moderator comes along soon.

Dips in metronidazole cannot possibly be of use. The medication takes a long time to work completely and that's when the fish is in the medicated water 24/7. Two weeks is a usual full course.

You might want to take them off that food. Many people report buoyancy issues in fish fed Hikari foods. The ingredients don't look very good to me either. Lots of fillers. Spreading the feedings out to a few tiny feedings a day rather than just once a day may help too. 

I'm surprised you say she's moderately dropsied, her scales are still flush. What indicators are you looking at? Just curious for future references. 

She ate 3-4 peas no problem last night, devoured them. I didn't see any poop in the tank this morning though. I think the green was the Soilent Green i fed a few days ago. 

The baths were just stronger then the tank dose. 1/4 tsp epsom, double dose of Kanamycin and Metronidazole in the bath. I was able to find Kanamycin locally yesterday. Her tank was also dosed with Kanamycin and Metronidazole and 1/4 tsp if epsom after the water change.

I will start looking into other foods, I haven't had any issues like this in two years and then all of a sudden two fish have the same symptoms. 

8 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

Hi there!

 

Do keep the metronidazole in the tank or feed it, no dips.  Am I misunderstanding how you were dosing it?

 

Is the dropsy symmetric or asymmetrical?  It looks uneven/asymmetrical to me, which makes being evgbound less likely.  An infected swim bladder or other organ infection could be the cause, but not constipation or impaction since you saw peas in her feces.

 

When you press on her stomach does it feel squishy or soft/mushy like the hollow of your cheek or firmer like your chin?

The Kanamycin and Metronidazole do go into the tank as well. The bath happens when I need to take her out of the tank to do a water change. I

As far as being symmetric - i don't think her body is symmetrical. Back tail is crooked I think, but I will try to get a better top down photo once i get home from work. 

I will check how firm her belly is when I get home - but it wasn't as soft as my cheek last night while holding her. Probably felt more like the pad on my palm under my thumb/rare steak firm. 

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Her scales aren't flush at all. In the GIF they are raised and in the top photo beneath the GIF they are raised. Right Taryl? I can't just be imagining it. And I feed Soilent Green. That poop isn't dark. It's light green. That poop is peas, not Soilent Green. And females can lack symmetry and it can be totally normal.

Your fish is quite bloated behind the gills as well. This also usually signals dropsy. When viewed from above, the roundness should be in the belly area, not begin behind the gills. It should be sort of like an eggplant shape from above, not a tennis ball shape. Compare your top photo to mine. Your fish is DEFINITELY dropsied. 

IMG_20170523_154505.jpg

Edited by mjfromga

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I wasn't arguing that she was or wasn't, I just wanted to be able to identify it easier in the future. Because i clearly missed it :(. Seeing them every day its hard to notice the small changes. Sorry if it came off that way.

Thank you for clarifying about the poop too, I didn't see her eat any but maybe she did. 

Should I do anything else or just continue the current treatment? 

Do you exclusively feed Soilent? 

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It is hard to see at first, but once you have seen dropsies close up and its happened over and over again you will see it a lot easier :)

If you look at your photo you will see all the scaled lifted up and not smooth. This is the first sign of bacteria in the fish.

If you doing Reg salt don't use it anymore when a fish is Dropsed like this... anytime you see this you need to have Epsom salt :) I will let these two help you :) 

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I don't exclusively feed Repashy. I feed it about 70% of the time. I feed Ken's Krill Pellets once a week. And I feed Blackwater Creek food once a week to see if everyone is eating and healthy since my pond is green and its hard to see them. I also feed seaweed once a week which also floats so they'll come up. Sometimes I also feed odds and ends such as bloodworms etc. I try to feed a varied diet. 

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Thank you for the information. I need to come up with a better way to properly feed the Soilent and add more diversity into their diet. 

As far as Creamsicle goes:

Should I do anything else or just continue the current treatment? 

Again, thank you all so much for you help.

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Please read our guidelines for healthy goldfish.

With 3 large and one small adult goldfish in a 40 gallon tank you should change more water.  

I have to wonder if that apparent kink in the spine near the back of the fish contributes to the problem.

Continue kanamycin, metronidazole, and epsom for the dropsy. 

For constipated fish, we usually recommend fasting for 3 days and then feeding exclusively leafy greens until the fish passes only green poop.  I believe that stimulating exercise also helps.

I recommend getting a shallow container for your hospital tank.  Something like this.   The more horizontal space in the tank, the more the fish moves.  Then get some duckweed (available online) to serve as his only food.  Duckweed works very well to clear the digestive tract and also provides plenty of protein.  

 

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1 hour ago, shakaho said:

Please read our guidelines for healthy goldfish.

With 3 large and one small adult goldfish in a 40 gallon tank you should change more water.  

I have to wonder if that apparent kink in the spine near the back of the fish contributes to the problem.

Continue kanamycin, metronidazole, and epsom for the dropsy. 

For constipated fish, we usually recommend fasting for 3 days and then feeding exclusively leafy greens until the fish passes only green poop.  I believe that stimulating exercise also helps.

I recommend getting a shallow container for your hospital tank.  Something like this.   The more horizontal space in the tank, the more the fish moves.  Then get some duckweed (available online) to serve as his only food.  Duckweed works very well to clear the digestive tract and also provides plenty of protein.  

 

The fish store near me tends to have duckweed, I will go pick up a bag of it. Great suggestion.

I monitor the water quality monthly and clean the canisters at the same time. Nitrates are always in range. So i never worried about the tank being cramped. However, when creamsicle recovers I will move him over to another tank that only has 2 orandas in it. That will make 3 fish per each of my 40 gallon tanks.

The tote is also a great idea, I will go pick one up today for him on my way to the fish store.

Should I maintain water temp where it is at 76f?

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Since you got a Canister I would stop feeding the gel food. It can make the canister very gunky and then you can build up bacteria or other things in there. 

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1 hour ago, RobertTheOranda said:

The fish store near me tends to have duckweed, I will go pick up a bag of it. Great suggestion.

I monitor the water quality monthly and clean the canisters at the same time. Nitrates are always in range. So i never worried about the tank being cramped. However, when creamsicle recovers I will move him over to another tank that only has 2 orandas in it. That will make 3 fish per each of my 40 gallon tanks.

The tote is also a great idea, I will go pick one up today for him on my way to the fish store.

Should I maintain water temp where it is at 76f?

I use ambient temperature.  

What is "in range" for nitrates?

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3 hours ago, RobertTheOranda said:

I monitor the water quality monthly and clean the canisters at the same time.

When you clean your canister, how do you clean it? Do you rinse everything out and dump the water out too? 

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2 hours ago, shakaho said:

I use ambient temperature.  

What is "in range" for nitrates?

40 is danger zone, 20 is normal on water change days.

1 hour ago, koko said:

When you clean your canister, how do you clean it? Do you rinse everything out and dump the water out too? 

I take everything out and rinse out the sludge, then rinse all the trays and squeeze out the media in declorinated water.

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So I got home to this, the peas i fed yesterday passed today.

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20 hours ago, mjfromga said:

 

She looks dropsied to me. Not mild either. Moderate. I don't think she's constipated. Might be a bit eggy? It's the right time of the year for that. The vent may spell eggs she tried to express but failed. Retained eggs may have caused infection? Constipated fish almost never refuse food. Sick fish do, though. Hopefully a moderator comes along soon.

Dips in metronidazole cannot possibly be of use. The medication takes a long time to work completely and that's when the fish is in the medicated water 24/7. Two weeks is a usual full course.

You might want to take them off that food. Many people report buoyancy issues in fish fed Hikari foods. The ingredients don't look very good to me either. Lots of fillers. Spreading the feedings out to a few tiny feedings a day rather than just once a day may help too. 

I think she may be eggy, her belly is really soft and the peas i fed her today, passed today.

7 hours ago, shakaho said:

Please read our guidelines for healthy goldfish.

With 3 large and one small adult goldfish in a 40 gallon tank you should change more water.  

I have to wonder if that apparent kink in the spine near the back of the fish contributes to the problem.

Continue kanamycin, metronidazole, and epsom for the dropsy. 

For constipated fish, we usually recommend fasting for 3 days and then feeding exclusively leafy greens until the fish passes only green poop.  I believe that stimulating exercise also helps.

I recommend getting a shallow container for your hospital tank.  Something like this.   The more horizontal space in the tank, the more the fish moves.  Then get some duckweed (available online) to serve as his only food.  Duckweed works very well to clear the digestive tract and also provides plenty of protein.  

 

Thank you for the tip. Creamsicle has a much better room layout now.

Jiq8dpOtor7bY21WHDDtGIRmnNWCrw1HN0Bs4wCg

 

19 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

Hi there!

 

Do keep the metronidazole in the tank or feed it, no dips.  Am I misunderstanding how you were dosing it?

 

Is the dropsy symmetric or asymmetrical?  It looks uneven/asymmetrical to me, which makes being evgbound less likely.  An infected swim bladder or other organ infection could be the cause, but not constipation or impaction since you saw peas in her feces.

 

When you press on her stomach does it feel squishy or soft/mushy like the hollow of your cheek or firmer like your chin?

Her stomach felt really soft, it was almost unexpected. Her upper abdomen was pretty firm though. However the peas from yesterday passed today.

 

As far as her being symetrical or not, I think shes more symtrical then she looks. Her spine is crooked, and its beds to one side, she also tilts to that side a bit.

 

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_CkQkQWld15j2BM5x8LVszFobaAQpYwzePg5iIUT

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

So i guess there are two options, the blockage has passed or she wasn't constipated and she's eggy. I'm going to finish the 7 days of metro to be safe, she has one more dose of Kanamycin left.

Anything else that I should change?

Edited by RobertTheOranda

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Nope, not at this time.  

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She received another dose of antibiotics with today's water change. Final 3rd dose of Kanamycin. Also the 3rd dose of Metronidazole .

I would like to add the Metronidazole to her food and feed her some pellets, however the dose is 9g of powder. It's a full capfull of the Metro+ that I have. I think the seachem version is much more potent then what I have on hand. I feel like the mixture would be half food half powder.

Is this even worth doing? I have some Medicated flake from AnglesPlus too, both one and two. One is Kanamycin and the other is Oxytetracycline based.

Her scales looked more flush today which is nice. Belly also seemed softer :). Vent is still huge though.

On a side note, I'm going to be placing an order from AAP so please let me know if there is anything else I should have on hand.

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If the dropsy persists and you're done with the kanamycin you can definitely feed the oxy flakes, I like them very much but they're just tricky to dose properly.  Has the dropsy changed at all?  If her belly is soft that makes being eggbound less likely, to be honest, but it's still possible.  Soft or mushy and asymmetric is something I'd expect to see more with an infection.

 

If the dropsy has improved and she seems softer then an infection and constipation together are definitely possible.  Follow Shakaho's advice for duckweed and shallow containers and I think you'll see big improvement.

Edited by Arctic Mama

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1 minute ago, Arctic Mama said:

If the dropsy persists and you're done with the kanamycin you can definitely feed the oxy flakes, I like them very much but they're just tricky to dose properly.  Has the dropsy changed at all?  If her belly is soft that makes being eggbound less likely, to be honest, but it's still possible.  Soft or mushy and asymmetric is something I'd expect to see more with an infection.

 

If the dropsy has improved and she seems softer then an infection and constipation together are definitely possible.  Follow Shakaho's advice for duckweed and shallow containers and I think you'll see big improvement.

She wasn't really feeling the duck weed. Got some in her mouth and spit it out. I left some in the tank with her so we will see. I'll feed her some more peas so i know she's eaten.

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I noticed today that one of the Tropicals I have is also severely bloated. A completely different tank from where creamsicle was. And cornbread was in a 3rd tank.

So that's 3 fish from 3 different tanks that all have the same symptoms. I fed some of the tropicals some left over soilent the other day, but other that that they have been on the same diet for 2 years. The 3 dot Gourami that is now looking severely constipated is one of my oldest fish. Never had any issues with him and now, within weeks of the others he has the same symptoms.

Coincidence or not?

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So your feeding Gel food to all your tanks? What kind of filters are on your tanks..

I would honestly stop feeding Gel food for now. Some kind of bacteria is in your system and looks to have spread :o Do you use the same hose for all your tanks? 

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11 hours ago, koko said:

So your feeding Gel food to all your tanks? What kind of filters are on your tanks..

I would honestly stop feeding Gel food for now. Some kind of bacteria is in your system and looks to have spread :o Do you use the same hose for all your tanks? 

No, I just fed the gelfood that once because i had some left over i didnt want to toss.

I do use the same pump for all the tanks, I used to have a dedicated clean line in but I had to get rid of that 2 or so months ago. So now i use the same hose and pump on all tanks.

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