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Mysterious goldf-issue


AkPudge

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Yes, totes work very well. Or you can just change the water out by going bucket to bucket several times a day, but the tote is easier and less work.  We like the shallow ones with a lot of surface area, they're fantastic for goldfish.

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1 hour ago, AkPudge said:

I refill the main tank with 72F water from the tap, same as in the tank.

The hospital tank water was at .50ppm, the untreated tap water is 1ppm, treated its at 0ppm. So I refill the water in the hospital tank with treated tap water, it has raised to .50ppm in less than 24 hours. I assume the hospital tank is just too small for the sick goldfish. Its more of a slime coating all over him and frayed fins. It goes away when I change the water, but at the end of the day its back. I'm going to put the goldfish in a big rubbermaid tote tonight to help, because I'm not sure what else to do.

"the untreated tap water is 1ppm, treated its at 0ppm"  Treated with what?  

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Seachem Prime, sorry I thought I had put that in my original thing I filled out. All water going into any tank in my house is treated with Prime to get rid of ammonia and chloramine.

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Now I'm really confused.  

 

Prime does not change the ammonia reading on the API Master Kit.  It simply changes ammonia to ammonium.  The API kit reads total ammonia which is ammonia plus ammonium.   This will be the same before and after adding Prime.   Are you doing something else as well as adding Prime?

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I guess I maybe don't understand how Prime works....I test my tank water and write down those numbers, I empty out 50%, I add Prime to the tank (the dosage for the entire tank amount, not just the 50% new water) I refill with tap water that has ammonia at 1PPM. I assumed the Prime made the ammonia non toxic for 24 hours, which I thought is how long it takes ammonia to evaporate, so in my mind, the water is back at 0PPM ammonia after 24 hours. So when I test my water and it has any ammonia at all (big tank never does, small hospital tank showed .50PPM the day after a water change) I assumed it was from the fish and not residual tap water ammonia.

 

Every day in the morning I change 100% of the 5G hospital tank, by 5pm when I get home goldfish had a white slime/fuzz all over as pictured in my previous post about this. I'm still treating with salt and T.C Tetracycline but he doesn't seem any better, last night I put him in what I think is a 20G tote with his little filter and bubbler, still treating with salt and T.C Tetracycline. He is sitting in one corner, not moving but not white slimy. I no longer expect him to rally like hes done 2x before. I'm not sure what else to do, or if the Tetracycline is helping or hindering, its the only difference in treatment since the last time. I just feel so bad, all my other tanks are thriving and I'm really trying to do everything I can for this fish but its doesn't seem to be helping.

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Arctic Mama, I have him in a tub thats similar in size to a 20G tank, I'm going to the store tonight and trying to find a shallow but long tub. I'm picturing something like those wide flat plastic totes that usually go under a bed? Only a few inches tall?

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On 5/30/2017 at 3:42 PM, shakaho said:

the untreated tap water is 1ppm, treated its at 0ppm.

So this is your assumption rather than what you got from testing?

If your tank reads zero ammonia before a water change it just means you have a cycled tank.  If you do a 50% water change using tap water with 1 ppm ammonia, your water will have 0.5 ppm ammonia immediately after the change.  The Prime you used makes this ammonia level safe for your fish.  The ammonia level should drop to zero within a few hours since the nitrifiers convert it to nitrate.

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Yes, I guess its was an assumption, I have never tested the water immediately after a water change, because I didn't realize treated water would still have/show ammonia.

So, I no longer understand what I am supposed to do with this fish. Did the sliminess not come from ammonia burns because it was a false reading? Or how do I keep him from having ammonia issues in a hospital tank if the water will always have ammonia unless its cycled? Do I need to go buy jugs of water and only use that?

I was at a loss for what was wrong with this fish, now I'm still at a loss but also have no idea how to not keep making it worse. Not that it matters too much, this fish seems to be on his way out. Hes still just sitting in the corner, he looks dead but sorta flaps one arm when I tried to scoop him out (thought he was dead). I haven't had a sick fish, let alone a death in my other tanks in years (the last was my betta who died of old age at 4 years) so I'm really disappointed I couldn't stop or fix this.

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Just follow the advice you have received.  As I said above, Prime makes ammonia concentrations up to 1 ppm safe for the fish.  I see no evidence of ammonia concentrations above 1 ppm.

 

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6 hours ago, AkPudge said:

Arctic Mama, I have him in a tub thats similar in size to a 20G tank, I'm going to the store tonight and trying to find a shallow but long tub. I'm picturing something like those wide flat plastic totes that usually go under a bed? Only a few inches tall?

Bingo!  Those are great for this purpose :)

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At Shakaho, So you said you see no evidence of ammonia above 1ppm, are you saying that because it didn't test over that you don't believe the slimy white stuff in my picture was caused by ammonia? If so, do you have any feelings on what it might be?

 

 

I have moved the sick fish to a large under bed tote, with wheels, so I can take him for a walk like a puppy in a wagon ;)

I stopped the Tetracycline treatment, I can't say if it was helping and medicine is usually pretty harsh on fish. I added only a tiny bit of salt, not the full dose. No filter, but I have the bubbler going.

Fish is just laying in the flat tote, as he was in the bigger tote. He doesn't seem to be trying or able to swim, just a full body wiggle/shimmy, so I put the food right by him. He ate 3 pieces which he unfortunately spit back up a few minutes later....but he did try to eat them again so theres that. Should I try to set up a filter in this some how, or be doing something different?

 

6BKhf9r.jpg

 

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Do use a small filter, with a bit of cycled medium in it.  

Ammonia burns usually produce redness, not excess slime coat.  At a pH of 6.4, virtually all of the ammonia you read should exist in the virtually harmless ammonium form, even without adding Prime.  The excess slime coat may come from external parasites or from the low pH.  

At this pH, almost any form of carbonate -- cuttlebone, oyster shells, crushed coral will raise the KH and pH.  You can also raise the KH and pH with baking soda.  

You can treat sliminess with salt.  To do a salt treatment, add 1 teaspoon of aquarium salt for each gallon of water in the tank.  This produces 0.1% salt.  If you do this in the morning, add the same amount of salt in the evening, raising the salt concentration to 0.2%.  The next morning, add the same amount of salt again. raising the salt concentration to 0.3%, the medicinal level.  This level of salt won't hurt the fish, but can kill some parasites and aid in producing new, clean slime coat.  Once you have a salt concentration of 0.3%, maintain it by adding 1 tablespoon of salt for each gallon of new water when you change water.

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If the excess slime coat (if thats actually what it was, Ill re-attach the photo from earlier this week) is from low PH or parasites, wouldn't it have been on the fish the whole time? and not just 2 days after moving him to the hospital tank? Its hasn't showed back up since I've moved him to this new flat container either.iBroQ0l.jpg

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If it was a ph burn it would take some time to show up. I have had a Ph crash and that looks like it with some Fungus going on too. :( 

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Well, I thought it was ammonia burns and I thought Arctic Mama felt the same by her reply. But after discussing ammonia levels with you I felt like the ammonia wasn't the issue. I'm not saying low PH or parasites is wrong, I just wanted to add the info and ask, would those things cause issues the whole time, or just show up after being in the hospital tank? I added that info because I like to gather all the details and evidence to help come to a solid conclusion on whats wrong, when things go wrong. I am unable to find photos of PH burns on fish, so I wasn't able to compare those to my fish. I truly do not know whats wrong, I have fixed the PH, theres no ammonia, hes in a shallow low current tank with the salt, I'm just stumped on what else I can or should be doing. Its really hard to wait it out and hope he makes it. The first time he got sick he improved daily, this time he got worse at first and now his condition is bad but its no longer getting worse (as far as I can tell). Without obvious improvement its hard for me to tell if what I'm doing is working.

I continue to and have done research before coming here to post, I'm not trying to waste peoples time by helping me with things I can search myself, I'm just looking for info from people with goldfish experience (something that only comes with time) who can respond to my questions to this specific situation (something reading articles can't do). Any suggestions people have, I am going off and reading more about it myself to try and get this under control and learn for any future issues. (I was wrongly under the impression stable PH is more important the correct PH for fish, this is written and many articles unfortunately. I had never read before that ammonia would still show up on tests after being treated with Prime, or that low PH makes ammonia into less toxic ammonium....but from this post alone I've already learned these new things).

 

At Koko: Its just so weird, this fishy has been in the hospital tank 2x since I got him in January, no PH changes at all during that time (its always low, but consistently). The first time he got better in the hospital tank and went back into the big boy tank for months before he got sickly again, the PH is the same in both tanks though. In my mind, if it were PH he wouldn't have gotten better in the hospital tank because the PH would still be the same low level. I did however add cuttlebone to all my tanks to fix the low PH issue, so I don't know if that was the problem, but I'm fixing it just in case to narrow down what the issue might be.

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Hun can you give me a photo of your whole tank :)

I just saw a photo of your tank but I don't know if it recent. Reason Im asking is that log in there, is it still in there? 

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Its a grapevine branch, its still in there, it doesn't release any color (tannins) at all. If you are thinking thats the PH lowering issue, I'll mention I have 3 tanks, 2 have sticks and 1 has none, all have low PH and the water coming from my tap has the same low PH. Here's a photo from last night of my tank, with its new plants.

xZMlIG9.jpg

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Ok hun :)

I would like you to do a simple test for me :)

1. Get a Gallon Jug fill it with Tap water. Test the Ph and KH and GH if you have it.

2. Let it set with an air stone for 24 hours then test it again.

This will help us with how the tap water is changing with out anything in it :) 

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15 hours ago, AkPudge said:

I can test the PH that way, I don't have a GH or KH test, I can order one, but its going to take 7-14 days.

Do you have a LFS around that could test it for you? 

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I don't, our LPS doesn't test the water for you and only carries API Master Test Kits, no KH GH tests. I ordered the KH and GH test, should get here in about a week.

 

Goldfish in the hospital tank is more lively, hes at least laying on his belly instead of his side, he still can't swim, just wiggles, and he is still trying to eat.

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21 hours ago, AkPudge said:

I don't, our LPS doesn't test the water for you and only carries API Master Test Kits, no KH GH tests. I ordered the KH and GH test, should get here in about a week.

 

Goldfish in the hospital tank is more lively, hes at least laying on his belly instead of his side, he still can't swim, just wiggles, and he is still trying to eat.

La Bummer :( Well lets still test the Ph and make sure its okay :)

Then we can do the KH and GH when you do get it :) 

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Just an update, still waiting on the test kit to even ship (Amazon holds my orders for up to 3 weeks before shipping, no idea why, its been going on for 3 years now) should be here on the 14th.

I was able to raise the PH in my betta tank and my tropical tank, from 6.0 to 6.8 and 7.0 by adding buried cuttlebone/crush coral in a pantyhose. (If it matters, it took less cuttlebone than it took crushed coral to raise the PH). I stuffed crushed coral pantyhose in my goldfish filter and hope to have it raised within a few days (No idea how long it takes for PH to adjust from the coral but the 10G betta tanks PH raised overnight).

Sick goldfish is still in his bin, which has had cuttlebone in it for a week, I added more crush coral because the cuttlebone had not changed the PH at all. He still doesn't swim, sometimes I find him stuck on his back, if I flip him over he stays upright. He doesn't come to the surface at all, so either hes too tired to dart anymore or he doesn't need to dart for whatever reason. He will wiggle towards food but I haven't actually seen him eat in a few days. The bin is unheated in a backroom, so hes not at his normal 72F, more like 68F.

I can leave him in the bin if that is best for him, but I did build a breed box last night from a 3" tall ring of plastic mesh inside a pantyhose leg. (I can add a picture if that helps anyone.) I can hang this inside the main tank, with a raised PH and see how he does? This would let him be with his buddies, but at the surface where he doesn't need to work to get to the surface and in a slightly warmer tank.

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Because we don't know exactly what he is suffering from I would personally keep him in a hospital tank. But if you judge that he may fare better in a breeder box in the main tank you can try it.  You're on the right track with the coral and cuttlebone, and baking soda buffering is also wonderful too.  Cheap and effective, all of them :)

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