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Sieta

Very sick fish from long term miscare

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I was hoping to get some help with these two oranda guys I just got. I'm a fairly experienced goldfish keeper but these two have me worried.

 

They were a friend's and I know he had them for a year.... They are over a year old, very tiny and very sick.

I'm calling them Ren and Stimpy for now. 

They lived for over a year in a 65 gallon tropical tank that was stuffed to the gills with various fish. 3 adult bn plecos, clown loach, barbs that I know of along with others. I don't know how often the tank was cleaned but I know it was massively poorly stocked and overstocked and had many deaths in it.

 

As of now they are both in my 20 gallon quarantine tank.

They have went through a 4 dose furan 2 treatment as soon as I got them. Then 2 days after the antibiotic I started a tetra parasite guard treatment, they have had 2 doses and will receive the third follow up dose Friday.

 

Ths first and worse case is Ren.

He is much larger then the other at maybe a 2 to 2.5 inch body but still insanely small for a year old goldie. He is clamped, bottom sitting , has a very heavily red veined tail with a melted edge to it, his eyes almost look like they have large blisters on them. (The eye itself isn't protuding like in typical Popeye instead it looks like a large cloudy cone over the eye itself, he is not eating or responding to food. He just sits there swallowing almost like he has a gravel in his throat but I don't see anything in there when looking with a flashlight. A few times over these past two weeks I have saw him fall over on his side but he generally stays upright.

Then there is Stimpy who is so tiny it's insane he has a body size of maybe an inch to an inch and a half basically he is the size of my pinky finger tip. He is also bottom sitting and clamped , missing scales, but does swim on very rare occasion and maybe eat a bit of something.   He doesn't have the cloud or veins and stays upright though.

I have tried to temp these guys with pellets, flake, frozen blood worm, rapashy gel food and deshelled peas.  Very minimal food is even touched.

I will fill out the d and d form below as well but I can't tell you much more than this since they are in qt and weren't mine. 

 

  • Test Results for the Following:
    • * Ammonia Level(Tank) 0
    • * Nitrite Level(Tank) 0
    • * Nitrate level(Tank) under 10
    • * Ammonia Level(Tap) 0
    • * Nitrite Level(Tap)0
    • * Nitrate level(Tap)0
    • * Ph Level, Tank (If  possible, KH, GH and chloramines)
    • * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)7.2
    • Other Required Info:
      • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API master kit
      • * Water temperature? 68
      • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 20 gal QT with an established filter
      • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Sponge
      • * How often do you change the water and how much? Depending on the meds I've been using.
  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? 25% per med instructions 3 days ago
  • * How many fish in the tank and their size? 2 golds, tiny
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners? Prime 
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often? Refused most foods, trying twice a day with various foods
  • * Any new fish added to the tank? Them
  • * Any medications added to the tank?, tetra Parasite Guard this week
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank.Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. Furan 2 a 4 dose cycle, now on second dose of paraguard
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? Cloudy blisters over eyes, red veined tail, melted tail appearance, gulping, bottom sitting, clamped, and refusing to eat.
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? See above

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Poor babies!  I recommend you change 100% of the water daily.  This means you have to replace the medication you remove, but fish as sick as these shed a lot of dead tissue, bacteria, and parasites into the water and you need to get rid of it.  Does the water stink?  

The fish might develop a bit more appetite if you slowly warm them, particularly if they lived at a higher temperature before you got them.  Do you know what your friend fed them.?  I expect they got only one kind of food and may not recognize anything else as food.  

What are the active ingredients in Tetra Parasite Guard?  I haven't been able to find them. Once you finish the round of Parasite Guard, don't start any new medications until we've had a chance to evaluate and recommend.

I will report this case to the whole moderating team.  We will discuss possible treatments and get back to you.

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Active ingredients in the parasite guard are prazi, diflubenzuron, metronidazole and acriflavine.  I've always had good results from it.

The water does not stink at all, nice and fresh like a typical established tank, I didn't do daily changes with the furan 2, just double dosed prime every 24 hours with the recommended 25% change after the second dose because I was on my last pack of furan and couldn't get it delivered in time. (I didn't realize I was getting these guys and had to set up an emergency at tank at midnight)

After it was over I did a 100% water change and added a seeded filter since usually the parasite guard usually doesn't hurt the cycle in a well established filter, so now I've been doing them every 3 days to remove the excess food that they aren't eating. About 80% changes. I will start doing daily instead.

 

I would almost bet they were eating flake before which is the only reason I offered it as I usually don't feed flake. The smallest did seem to react to the smell of the flake as well as some of the other stuff but only enough to make one quick dart out and then back to it's corner with only getting either one bite or not finding it and giving up. The larger one Ren, doesn't react at all but I believe he may have ate one blood worm I dropped in front of his face while I had my back turned feeding one of the other tanks, that was one of the times he was on his side and the worm was gone. ( I believe the exertion from eating it made him tip over)

I'll throw a heater in and slowly start warming them up.(by the time I got them that night they had been bagged up in his car for several hours and was already room temp)

 

Edited by Sieta
Forgot something

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Oh yikes!  

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These poor babies are breaking my heart. I do have some good news on the smallest "Stimpy" When I went to throw a heater in I added a small amount of bloodworms again and he actually started eating to the point I had to add a few more. And he again ate very well this morning. 

Ren however is still barely even reacting to food in the tank, he scooted forward a few inches when I put the bloodworms in but didn't eat.

I was also able to observe his mouth a little better this morning when he did several very jerky attempts to yawn.  It almost appears as the little tube part of his mouth that normally extends on a goldfish when eating /yawning/ etc.....  is either stuck or gone....   When I first got these guys they were covered in so much gunk and slime coat build up I couldn't tell any details hardly.

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I would like you to add salt, gradually raising it to 0.3% as described here, sections 2 and 3.  I would like to do salt dips to strip away the slime coat and its collection of parasites, but I think they aren't strong enough for that yet.

I wonder if you held a bloodworm in a forceps and put it right up to Ren's mouth, if he would take it.

I was hoping you could try feeding Ren the exact brand of flake he was used to.  Flake is just a shape and comes in many flavors and qualities.  

Edited by shakaho

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I'll ask him exactly what he was feeding and see, he buys his food in bulk mostly online I believe and if so that's gonna take awhile to ship. I could see if he wants to give me a handful if nothing else. 

Ren does show interest in the bloodworms by scooting forward at least.

a couple days ago he wouldn't take it from my tweezers but I'll certainly try again he may feel a bit better. 

It's hard to believe but they look much better now than when I first got them.

Ideally my next planned steps originally were going to be the salt/prazi rounds but when they were refusing to eat and tipping I was worried they wouldn't be strong enough.  I will go ahead and start the salt concentration now.

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How long has Ren gone without eating?

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I have not actually seen him eat since I got them almost 2 weeks ago aside from the blood worm I think he might have eaten.

 

And thank you for all your help :)

Edited by Sieta

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Their salt concentration is at .03% now.

Last night after the second addition of salt both fish actually started swimming around for a little while when I put it in. Not sure if it irritated them enough to make them move or put enough boyancy in the water, either way this was the first time I've seen Ren off the bottom since I've had em. This morning they were still staying at the top of the tank but more or less top sitting.  

Stimpy continues to eat.  But Ren is still refusing to eat even when I tried giving it to him with the tweezers. He is however showing more interest in wanting to eat and even going up to it now, but still not eating.

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Hope they feel better soon.

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Appreciate all the hard work you are doing to help him out! Hoping his healing "kicks in" ASAP & he starts to gobble up his food & completely heals!!!

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URGENT please! 

 

Stimpy the little one has started pineconing, and eye bulging.

Start taking salt out?

Edited by Sieta

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Along with the droopsy symptoms on Stimpy, (pineconed and bulging eyes,)   Ren is also showing sore spots on his body. I've done two water changes to pull the salt out.    Unless someone tells me otherwise I'm going to start droopsy treatment with epsom and kanaplex. 

 

I don't like to use so many meds and these guys are being put through the ringer but with dropsy I'm afraid to wait. Please let me know ASAP.

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I know the mods here say to not use Kanaplex on dropsy. Rather, you want to use Metroplex. Combination with oxytetracycline if possible. I've always found metroplex works better when fed to a sick fish but they might recommend the water method only. Either way don't use Kanaplex. Hang tight. Someone will be along soon. 

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Oh no!  I hope we can fix them, but it doesn't look good.

As, Myra said, we prefer metronidazole and oxytetracycllne  if they are readily available.  Kanaplex is pretty harsh for weak fish.  Remove salt and dose epsom at 1/2 teaspoon per 10 gallons.  

If you don't have metro, and can't find it in a local fish store, go to a big box pet store and get  API General Cure, and if you can't find oxy quickly pick up some API Triple Sulfa.  I think even Walmart carries these products.  

I hate the instructions on these products.  I would just do a packet per ten gallons initially and replace the medication when you do your water changes.  Treat for two weeks.

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I have metroplex and general cure on hand but no oxy.

I can order some from Amazon with 2 day shipping but to be honest I don't think I can drive out to get some... Myself, my husband and our toddler all have strep throat and have been going in and out with fevers ourselves.

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Ok my husband made it out and picked up the triple sulfa, 

I have a question about replacing the meds after daily water changes. Do I put in for my 20 gal 2 packets initially, then  water change the next day with 2 packets again or this time double the dose and have 4 packets in etc? I'm just not sure if the med concentration needs to stack as the treatment progresses. 

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Do you have any other antibiotics?  Use the metro and order some oxy.

They give no explanation for their instructions, but it seems likely to me that they assume you are treating in the main tank.  The doubling doesn't make much sense.  I'd do a full water change and add two packets every other day.

Edited by shakaho

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My husband made it out and picked up the triple sulfa, so they are currently being treated with metroplex, triple sulfa, and Epson salt.

 

Gotcha on the dosage, thanks. 

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Good.  I hope it works.

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Quick update, Stimpy is still the same, if anything some scales may have went down some. If nothing else at least they aren't worse. One side of his body is more prominent than the other but they are still not fully extended. Suprisingly he is very active though swimming and actually begging for food.

Red however has developed new symptoms, his mouth is very red and irritated with a small flap starting to flap in and out as he breathes

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Edited by Sieta

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With all the redness and blanched color, as well as the heavy slime coat, it reminds me of costia.  What do you think sharon?

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First off some great news, Stimpy is no longer pineconed! They all went back flat.  They are both actually swimming around now but Ren is still obviously very weak and tipping from time to time, but he rights himself and swims on. Still not seeing Ren eat, but he is struggling more with his mouth like he is trying to force it to work again

 

Today was originally supposed to be their week follow up with the parasite guard, active ingredients prazi, diflubenzuron, metro and acriflavine.

I also have general cure on hand, as well as prazipro and levisole.

 

Please let me know if I need to add prazi to their medication cocktail or switch out the metroplex for general cure etc, I'm due to do their 100% water change very soon tonight.

 

Again thank you for the help.

3 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

With all the redness and blanched color, as well as the heavy slime coat, it reminds me of costia.  What do you think sharon?

Edited by Sieta

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I have no experience with costia.  Isn't the treatment salt?

 

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