Help! Part 3 (dropsy?)

[titch]

Test Results for the Following:
* Ammonia Level(Tank) – 0.25ppm
* Nitrite Level(Tank) – 0ppm
* Nitrate level(Tank) – 20ppm
 
* Ammonia Level(Tap) – 0.25ppm
* Nitrite Level(Tap) – 0ppm
* Nitrate level(Tap) – 5ppm. Nitrates out my tap are generally 20-40ppm so I use a Pozzani filter to filter the water into tubs which I treat with Prime and usually let sit for 24hrs before adding to the tank. The ‘tap’ figures above are the levels in the water that has been filtered, treated and stood.
 
* Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) – 7.4ph
 
* Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) – 7.4ph
 
Other Required Info:
* Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API freshwater master kit (drops)
 
* Water temperature? – 25C (77F)
 
* Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? Juwel Rio 240 (approx. 240l) running for 2.5 years
 
* What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Fluval FX6 (3500lph) set up on 01-Dec
 
* How often do you change the water and how much? 150 litres at the weekend with a midweek change of approx. 90 litres.
 
* How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change?  Just now, 90 litres. Before that, 150 litres on Sunday
 
* How many fish in the tank and their size? 2 in total. Orange Fantail “Dad” approx. 12 years old (5” body), Chocolate Oranda “Piggy” approx. 2 years old (6” body), 3 nerite snails
 
* What kind of water additives or conditioners? Prime
 
* What do you feed your fish and how often? Tetra Gold Japan, Hikari Oranda Gold (saturated using a pellet pump), peas a couple of times a week, occasional veggie usually lettuce/cucumber, Repashy Soilent Green
 
* Any new fish added to the tank? No
 
* Any medications added to the tank? 
None
 
* List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. 
Fluke Solve 29-Oct to 12-Nov (2 weeks) Salt @3%
 
* Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? Dad (fantail) is showing definite signs of pineconing. Wasn't apparent until tonight. 
 
* Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.?
Bottom sitting & continuous heavy breathing/gulping. Will swim about when I approach & for food. He's feeding fine. 
Piggy (chocolate oranda) had some stringy fuzz trailing from the spot where his gill plate meets his wen yesterday. It's since dropped off. He's not currently showing any raised scales. 

Photobucket is doing some kind of maintenance so unable to load pics at the minute. 

I'm seriously freaking out, you hear so many horror stories!! Ive got Winston & his never ending red spots & now this. What should I do???

Meds on hand - Metroplex, Kanaplex, Sulfaplex, Focus, Triple Sulfa, Furan-2, salt & silver. 

[DawnMichele]

IM so sorry to hear this. Someone will be along to help you.  Hang in there.

[koko]

Is this your filter system hun?

[titch]

8 hours ago, koko said:

Is this your filter system hun?

No, I removed the Juwel internal filter on Sunday 8th January. I'm running with just the FX6 now.

Dad was bottom sitting less last night. He was hanging out at the top a lot (as was Piggy) but that was after feeding, which they do a lot. He's swimming around quite a bit this morning.

Picture of Dad was taken last night. The one of Piggy's fuzz was taken on Tuesday.

[koko]

OK hun a full tank shot again....Im thinking we may want to Epsom salt the tank.

[titch]

21 minutes ago, koko said:

OK hun a full tank shot again....Im thinking we may want to Epsom salt the tank.

Ok, I'll take a picture tonight, but I have no PC at home. Photobucket won't play nicely with my phone so I'm unlikely to get a picture loaded until tomorrow.

Not sure if this helps, but the tank looks just like this but with no internal filter and the Fluval 206 has been replaced with the FX6. And no Winston of course (still in QT) 

[Arctic Mama]

The orange one is your twelve year old correct?  With that sort of assymetrical swelling it can be organ failure, a blockage, or a tumor generally speaking.  The dropsy makes me lean toward organ failure, especially with his age.

 

The white spot on your chocolate oranda's wen is likely nothing to be alarmed about as it looks like a normal wen growth spot and should fade on it's own in a few days.  Topical swabbing of meth blue or hydrogen peroxide is the course of action to take if it doesn't resolve by Saturday though, or spreads, okay? The trailing fuzz may well have been some slime coat, but I really see nothing in the picture worrying at all.

 

I see you received your meds.  Am I correct in understanding you didn't treat anyone in this tank except Winston, who is still in quarantine?

Edited February 2, 2017 by Arctic Mama

[titch]

18 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

The orange one is your twelve year old correct?

I see you received your meds.  Am I correct in understanding you didn't treat anyone in this tank except Winston, who is still in quarantine?

Yes, orange one is 12 years old. He's had the swelling for quite a few years (I always put it down to living in a bowl with an awful maintenance schedule for many years, my bad) but the raised/pineconed scales is new. 

Meds have arrived & currently using Metroplex & Kanaplex on Winston in QT. No meds have been added to main tank since the fluke solve late last year. 

I've just got home after shopping for everything I need for another QT tank - large storage boxes, heater, air stone & pump and Epsom salts. 

Edited February 2, 2017 by titch

[koko]

If it was me hun. At this point I would remove that log. I know its got plants but Im starting to wonder if there is a hollow part to it.

AM what do you think?

[titch]

Just for info, the log has been in since October. 

If I need to go down the Epsom route, can you let me know dosage please (never used it before)? And also will the nerites be ok?

Edited February 2, 2017 by titch

[Arctic Mama]

Wait wait, the bulging side is a long term thing but the pine coning is new?

[titch]

33 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Wait wait, the bulging side is a long term thing but the pine coning is new?

Yes. Bulging certainly been there for a long while. Hubby thinks about a year, I think more like 2-3 Noticed pineconing last night. Defo wasn't there on Sunday. 

Edited February 2, 2017 by titch

[Arctic Mama]

Well okay then, if the bulging isn't emergent we can address the pineconing with Epsom salt at 1/2 teaspoon per ten gallons (won't hurt the snails) and kanaplex, thought it isn't the best med for use with dropsy present you really need the gram negative coverage since this is likely aeromonas or pseudomonas (the most common bacteria to infect fish who are weakened or in tanks with a high bioload).

 

You can and should probably treat him in quarantine. I'd also seriously consider what Koko is saying.  You may benefit from running your tank free of all decoration and substrate until the problems cease and then add each component back in with a few weeks in between and see if anything changes. 

Edited February 2, 2017 by Arctic Mama

[titch]

Thank you. 

It's late here so I'll have address everything tomorrow.

Theres no substrate. Tank is completely bare bottomed with just the log & attached plants. How best do I keep this alive in the interim out of the tank?

If Kanaplex isn't the best treatment, what is? 

Can I follow the same schedule as in my other QT? i.e. Treat every other day following 100% WC? 

Also I note Kanaplex says to treat max 3 doses (Shakaho mentioned possible kidney issues with prolonged use) is this the case here?

Finally, because I keep forgetting, 10 gallons is how many litres? *face palm*

 

Edited February 2, 2017 by titch

[FishyMandy]

10 Gallons is Approx 40 litres (37.8 to be exact)

You could keep the plant in a bucket/tub of tank water, and refill it with tank water each time you do a WC. It should stay alive

Edited February 2, 2017 by FishyMandy

[titch]

Thank you - I'll make a note of it somewhere so I don't have to ask the (dumb) question again! And fingers crossed for the plants & wood (I'm one of those people that only has to look at a plant and it dies, so I'm pretty chuffed this is still going strong).

11 hours ago, titch said:

If Kanaplex isn't the best treatment, what is? 

Can I follow the same schedule as in my other QT? i.e. Treat every other day following 100% WC? 

Also I note Kanaplex says to treat max 3 doses (Shakaho mentioned possible kidney issues with prolonged use) is this the case here?

Can anyone answer my other queries please?

I'll be placing Dad into QT tonight after work. He was bottom sitting first thing this morning, but was active when food was offered.

Updated tank shot as promised...

[koko]

We are talking in the back hun... But I want to know if you can get... Wonder Shells?

[koko]

http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/MedicatedWonderShell.html#regular

[titch]

I think so, but only from the US (from what i can see). Will be over 2 weeks shipping. 

Unless anyone knows anywhere in the uk that sells them? Perhaps they're called something different?

[titch]

it!! Just re-read the thread & realised I've put 1 tsp of Epsom salt in the QT, not 1/2 (he's is 10g tub).

Am I doing more harm than good? Should I replace half the water? In my rush to get him in QT I misread the dosage you suggested  

 

Edited February 3, 2017 by titch

[Arctic Mama]

I live in Alaska and don't wake early even for my timezone, just assume anything I answer will be nine to thirteen hours after you post it

 

As for the epsom, just dose it correctly on the next water change.  It won't hurt in those quantities but that's a little overly highly for what we are trying to achieve here.

 

I know what the instructions on the kanaplex say, but it is more effective in the modified dose schedule I gave you.  We don't want to do it longer than two weeks straight without a break though.

 

It is a highly effective medication for internal bacterial infections, but the other one we recommend is oxytetracycline, especially for cases of dropsy. It seems to have a slight edge in getting on top of it in fish who can actually recover.  What you're running into is that older and weaker fish don't recover as quickly or easily and succumb more rapidly to infections as their bodies age, just like elderly humans.  So something a younger fish could bounce back from in a few days might take an older fish longer if they can do it at all.  I don't believe you're going to see significant improvement if you switched to oxy instead of kana, but if you had oxytetracycline medicated flakes or the powdered antibiotic on hand it might be helpful down the road.  If the kana doesn't work I don't think a round of oxy and metro would with this particular fish, though.  

[koko]

6 hours ago, titch said:

I think so, but only from the US (from what i can see). Will be over 2 weeks shipping. 

Unless anyone knows anywhere in the uk that sells them? Perhaps they're called something different?

I will try and take a look see for you hun

[titch]

OK, so turns out I don't have a tub big enough to keep the log in, so I'm afraid it's still in the tank at the moment. I'll have to go shopping.

Quick question though... if the log was hollow, wouldn't I see a fair amount of water draining from it when I remove it as well as a big 'glug' and air bubbles when I return it to the water?

I remove it every time I do a water change so I can clean the algae from the bottom of the tank and provide a bit more space for the guys as the water level drops. There's never an excessive amount of water draining from it (only seems to be what's 'on' it & the leaves) and no air/glug when it goes back in. And I've never known it to be whiffy either (Koko asked me to do the sniff test once before and I do it every time I get it out now). 

[koko]

On February 3, 2017 at 10:08 AM, titch said:

I think so, but only from the US (from what i can see). Will be over 2 weeks shipping. 

Unless anyone knows anywhere in the uk that sells them? Perhaps they're called something different?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Weco-Wonder-Shell-Natural-Minerials/dp/B003C5K9LU/ref=sr_1_2?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1486398254&sr=1-2&keywords=Weco+Wonder+Shell+Natural

 

Here you go hun  As for the Log its more as a Precaution than anything. Trying to elimate the issue  

[titch]

17 minutes ago, koko said:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Weco-Wonder-Shell-Natural-Minerials/dp/B003C5K9LU/ref=sr_1_2?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1486398254&sr=1-2&keywords=Weco+Wonder+Shell+Natural

 

Here you go hun  As for the Log its more as a Precaution than anything. Trying to elimate the issue  

Thanks Koko. I found these too, but they're also in the US with 2-3 week shipping.

Are they an on-going thing and if so how long does a single shell last? There's no point me ordering a single shell only to realise 2 weeks down the line that I need to replace it every month. Are they suitable for all water parameters or used to target specific issues?

I found these but not sure they're the same thing (I just googled mineral blocks) as I think they contain a food supplement also. http://www.aqualibra.uk/product-information According to the website, the ingredients are; 

Nutrition: Typical Average Values mg/100g unless specified. Calcium Sulphate: 77.5gm, Calcium Carbonate: 2000, Crude Protein: 370, Crude Fat: 60, Calcium (Other Bioavailable): 37.9, Vitamin B12: 24, Vitamin C: 21, Fatty Acids: 20, Bicarbonate: 14.8, Vitamin A: 10, Sulphate: 6.85, Sodium: 3, Vitamin E: 1.3, Vitamin D3: 1.3, Magnesium: 1.3, Potassium: 0.15, Chloride: 0.9, Zinc: 0.04, Iron: 0.03, Nitrate: trace <0.0005% + other trace minerals. Contains Spirulina and Aragonite (pure ground coral).

Also, just to let you know I've ordered the API GH & KH test kit. Should be with me tomorrow.