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titch

Help! part 2

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Monday update...

Been at home today so been able to observe him all day. 

Wen has improved as the day has gone on. Side patch much the same. Tail patch looks MUCH better. 

As you can probably see, I've added an airstone.

Silver has been dosed ready for WC tomorrow.

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Keep an eye on that spot in that last photo.. That one worries me. 

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30 minutes ago, koko said:

Keep an eye on that spot in that last photo.. That one worries me. 

Me too. 

We've seen them before - first pic taken in December second in March. Defo looks like blood in/under the scale.

What are you thinking?

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Edited by titch

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Could be a bacterial cyst.  If the scale looks raised at all let us know, we have some protocols for helping with those.  An external course of antibiotics (furan 2) might also not be amiss since this has been a persistent problem, but don't proceed before Koko okays  it as she has been your point of contact for most of this.

Edited by Arctic Mama

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On 8 May 2017 at 6:55 PM, koko said:

Keep an eye on that spot in that last photo.. That one worries me. 

 

On 8 May 2017 at 7:31 PM, Arctic Mama said:

Could be a bacterial cyst.  If the scale looks raised at all let us know, we have some protocols for helping with those. 

Ok, I've had him out of the water tonight to do a proper check of the spot. It's not raised although it does look like it is when he's in the tank (optical illusion?).

i also checked for raised scales as I've observed him & thought I could see some around his bottom when he's nose down. I ran a finger softly over the area & everything feels smooth. 

No (obviously) excess slime coat.

Both wen spots (top & rear) are cleared up. 

There is some clear poop trailing though.

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Hun I can't remember has he been on "furan 2" yet 

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5 minutes ago, koko said:

Hun I can't remember has he been on "furan 2" yet 

Yes - for 2 weeks at end of December alongside Metro+

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And did that seem to help clear the issue?  I'm asking because I think we can do anlonger course of just the furan if it was effective in clearing this before.  Otherwise we are pretty much stuck at the end of what help we can give without a better idea of what is causing the lesions.

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1 hour ago, Arctic Mama said:

And did that seem to help clear the issue?  I'm asking because I think we can do anlonger course of just the furan if it was effective in clearing this before.  Otherwise we are pretty much stuck at the end of what help we can give without a better idea of what is causing the lesions.

Thats what Im thinking. I was reading and I wish that Furan Green I think its called was still around. I think it would do the trick. 

Other than adding Silver in every other water change :) 

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I've been back through all my threads/posts and found the Furan-2 bit (page 1 of this thread). 

If I'm honest, and this is in no way intended as a dig (you guys are awesome - I'd be in a MUCH bigger mess if if weren't for you) nothing we've tried has cured this weirdness.

Having said that, I'm not sure I dosed the Furan-2 for long enough (miscommunication between you and I) and it may well have got rid of it once and for all if I'd continued for longer. After the Furan-2, we moved on to Metroplex & Kanaplex.

Please don't think bad of me but..... I'm reluctant to QT him and dose any more meds. He's already spent a good 5+ months in QT with us throwing everything at him (ok, slight exaggeration, but quite a bit) . As it stands today, he's probably the best he's been throughout all this (visibly).

Ultimately I will follow your advice and if you think it's for the best, I will treat with Furan-2.

I've searched the forum for other cases of bacterial cysts and in some cases I note that the advice is that they usually work themselves out and do not necessarily require treatment. 

I plan on moving them both over to the new tank on Saturday. Might I be ok to do this and observe him for a few days before making a final decision ref. meds? Am I clutching at straws to think the problem is with the current tank and a new home might be the cure?!

Please don't be upset with me for voicing my reluctance - that's all it is. Please don't take it that I'm throwing your advice back in your face. I'm truly not.

I like it here and I'd like to stay if you'll have me! :donthit:

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Oh hun. I wouldn't get upset with you at all :hug

You and your fish have been through a lot. If it was me right now I would get there tank set up. Keep an eye on them for a bit. If anything you can use that won't hurt them is the Silver. I use Silver every day. 

No one will be upset you with you. Your a good mommy and thinking of his well being :hug

 

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9 minutes ago, koko said:

Oh hun. I wouldn't get upset with you at all :hug

You and your fish have been through a lot. If it was me right now I would get there tank set up. Keep an eye on them for a bit. If anything you can use that won't hurt them is the Silver. I use Silver every day. 

No one will be upset you with you. Your a good mommy and thinking of his well being :hug

Phew, thank you. 

It's so difficult when typing a message to know how people will react/read it. Some may think I was using a malicious/ungrateful tone and that's not at all how I intend it to be taken.

I'll continue as planned with the new tank and I'll add silver to the first load of water once it's filled. How may drops would you suggest for the new tank (approx. 600 litres, silver @250ppm)?

One other thing, I note Sharon said to rinse the filter media in old tank water. Should I also rinse the new filters' media in old tank water or is that not really necessary?

My pH for tap is 7.4, tank is at 8.2(ish). However, once the tap water has been stood for 24hours with an airstone it's up to 8.2. As a result, I'd planned on filling the tank on Saturday (Prime'd with an airstone) and then add the boys on Sunday.

With that in mind, can I run the new tank with JUST the new filter for 24hours? My reasoning is that I don't want to remove the filter from the current tank and leave them without one whilst the new tank settles. Does that make sense or am I over thinking it?

Edited by titch

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14 minutes ago, titch said:

Phew, thank you. 

It's so difficult when typing a message to know how people will react/read it. Some may think I was using a malicious/ungrateful tone and that's not at all how I intend it to be taken.

I know hun its happened a lot over the years but I have gotten to know you and I know your a sweet person :hug 

14 minutes ago, titch said:

I'll continue as planned with the new tank and I'll add silver to the first load of water once it's filled. How may drops would you suggest for the new tank (approx. 600 litres, silver @250ppm)?

DUDE thats a 158 gallon tank, thats HUGE :yikes  I would go with 30 drops in there :) 

14 minutes ago, titch said:

One other thing, I note Sharon said to rinse the filter media in old tank water. Should I also rinse the new filters' media in old tank water or is that not really necessary?

Not ness but it wouldn't hurt either, get some of those bugs in the new filter :) 

14 minutes ago, titch said:

My pH for tap is 7.4, tank is at 8.2(ish). However, once the tap water has been stood for 24hours with an airstone it's up to 8.2. As a result, I'd planned on filling the tank on Saturday (Prime'd with an airstone) and then add the boys on Sunday.

With that in mind, can I run the new tank with JUST the new filter for 24hours? My reasoning is that I don't want to remove the filter from the current tank and leave them without one whilst the new tank settles. Does that make sense or am I over thinking it?

Nope you did good thinking... I would do that too :) 

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Oh I agree there isn't much for it.  My only suspicion, if it's not just viral, is that you're getting some repeated bacterial cysts under the scales due to a low grade infection that flares when he is stressed, hence why it isn't always there.  By and large those tend to be gram negative bacteria in fish (much more common) and the furan-2 excels at external bacterial issues.  It's safe to try for longer periods of time to try and sufficiently knock back what's going on, but there is no guarantee because we don't have scrapings or biopsies to confirm any diagnosis. We are only looking at the symptoms.

 

I don't believe it is parasitic, it could be viral but no other fish have shown symptoms, and it hasn't responded consistently to meds.  So yes, you can try another long round of furan (2 or  3 straight weeks) or just give up and put him back in the main tank, accepting that if the symptoms flare there is nothing much to be done at this point that hasn't already been tried in the realm of easily obtainable home vet medicine.

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1 hour ago, koko said:

Nope you did good thinking... I would do that too :) 

Ok, thanks. I'll run with just the new filter for 24 hours & add the old/existing one just before I transfer the boys over.

10 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Oh I agree there isn't much for it ...

... accepting that if the symptoms flare there is nothing much to be done at this point that hasn't already been tried in the realm of easily obtainable home vet medicine.

Thank you.

Just didn't want you to think I've given up on him or am fed up to the point of not caring anymore. Just don't want to expose him to too many meds. He's doing a lot better & in my opinion he's looking amazing in comparison to the early days. I may well treat again in the future with Furan-2, but at this stage I'm happy to leave as-is.

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Hey hun I been talking to a friend about this. One suggestion I would like to make now is to stop feeding the gel food. Some times this food leave a bio slim if you will and if not taken care of it builds up and if a fish is rubbing on it it makes sores. 

 

Here is some information she gave me and it makes since of what is going on here. Your doing a great job! We are always learning with goldfish. I have over the years my self :) any who... here is some good information :)

 

Quote
Just basing it on the setup, the diet and the pictures alone - I can already tell you what this infection is. This is a severe form of body flukes. No amount of metronidazole is going to cure this because this is not a one-celled protozoan infection but rather a fast multiplying group of parasites. The hemorrhaging/small ulcers all over the body --- these are all being attacked by the "worms" as it sucks blood and nourishes itself with skin fragments. This fish also now has secondary infections both bacterial and fungal from where the parasites have attacked it. The reason this is recurring is that it's populating in both her filters and along the water column of her tank. The gestation rate can be fast, in one month as much as a million young can be produced. Since the fish is a chronic bottom sitter -- it is also the main host.
 
The whole tank needs to be nuked. She needs to disinfect everything including all her media and throw out all the foam/sponges. If this were me I would discontinue the Fluval altogether - this is where it populated and it will happen again if she can't maintain that filter and do a thorough rinsing to prevent clogging EVERY week. Once the tank has been disinfected along with the filters, decor -- don't use for a month. Leave it to dry. 
 
As for the fish I hope it's not too late. Treat the fish in the quarantine tank -- no filters, just a strong airstone. There are 2 ways to treat this:
 
1. Formalin (37% formaldehyde) - 1 tsp per 9 gallons for 3 days with partial water changes *at least 25%. Temp should be less than 70F otherwise the formalin becomes toxic. Formalin will deplete oxygen so make sure there is strong aeration. Formalin may be too strong for a weakened fish.
 
2. Acriflavine - 1 week to 2 weeks (instructions on the bottle). THIS IS WHAT I WOULD USE - Acriflavine will treat all: bacteria, fungus, and the parasite.  If she uses Acriflavine, I recommend installing a heater set at 86F.
 
Shannon, I can't guarantee that this will completely eradicate the infection since it's been ongoing for so long. It may heal fast, or may heal slow. Please advise her to stop feeding the fish Repashy in the main tank. Everyone should do this: if you're feeding with gel food, feed in a separate holding tub. Never in the main tank. Residues can dissolve in the water and organic mulm can clog the filters which becomes an anaerobic environmen, the perfect place for parasites, bacteria, and fungus to populate.
 
I hope this helps.

 

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17 minutes ago, koko said:

Hey hun I been talking to a friend about this. One suggestion I would like to make now is to stop feeding the gel food. Some times this food leave a bio slim if you will and if not taken care of it builds up and if a fish is rubbing on it it makes sores. 

 

Here is some information she gave me and it makes since of what is going on here. Your doing a great job! We are always learning with goldfish. I have over the years my self :) any who... here is some good information :)

 

 

Not sure I can this all in tbh...

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I know its a lot to take in and do. 

But if and when you are up to this I will be here ...

 

But for the first thing I would like you to do, stop feeding the gel food. Also do you still use the Canister? 

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Just now, koko said:

I know its a lot to take in and do. 

But if and when you are up to this I will be here ...

 

But for the first thing I would like you to do, stop feeding the gel food. Also do you still use the Canister? 

The FX6? Yes, I bought it in December when I got rid of the Juwel internal filter & Fluval 206. 

 

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1 minute ago, titch said:

The FX6? Yes, I bought it in December when I got rid of the Juwel internal filter & Fluval 206. 

 

Ok hun. I guess the first easy way to help with this is to Clean everything before setting up and then we will loose cycle. Im as bumbed about this as you. I feel your pain. 

It seems the food is the Key to this. I noticed in my tank I was getting a build up to and worms. It was my Gel food. Im no longer feeding it and its not building back up :o

 

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1 minute ago, koko said:

Ok hun. I guess the first easy way to help with this is to Clean everything before setting up and then we will loose cycle. Im as bumbed about this as you. I feel your pain. 

It seems the food is the Key to this. I noticed in my tank I was getting a build up to and worms. It was my Gel food. Im no longer feeding it and its not building back up :o

 

Ok. I'll stop with the gel food (why isn't this more common though)?.

I'm due to move them to the new tank this weekend. Can't get my head around what to/not to do now.

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Just checked - I didn't start feeding the Repashy until October. After the issues all started. I'm not questioning the advice (who am I to question) - just for info. 

Is your friend a vet? Breeder? Again not questioning the source, just curious. 

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2 minutes ago, titch said:

Ok. I'll stop with the gel food (why isn't this more common though)?.

I'm due to move them to the new tank this weekend. Can't get my head around what to/not to do now.

Im here for you. It has been happening and I think we all trying to figure out what is going on. I figured I would ask my friend as she is better at this than me and would have more information. The white spots has been bothering me for a while no and Silver was the only thing I could think of that helped. I know why as Silver doenst like the bad guys but it can't kill parasites :( 

 

 

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Just now, titch said:

Just checked - I didn't start feeding the Repashy until October. After the issues all started. I'm not questioning the advice (who am I to question) - just for info. 

Is your friend a vet? Breeder? Again not questioning the source, just curious. 

You can ask hun. Im not one to get upset. :)

She is a breeder :) 

Im wondering if it was in there before and the gel just made it a breeding ground for them :) 

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Just now, koko said:

You can ask hun. Im not one to get upset. :)

She is a breeder :) 

Im wondering if it was in there before and the gel just made it a breeding ground for them :) 

Thanks.

Pfft. Doing well here aren't I. 

So where do I go from here. I have just over a month before I'm on holiday for 10 days. I've never done a cycle (fishless or otherwise) and I'm so concerned about that. Plus more QT. Think my head may explode. So...

Nuke the media & filter. Chuck the sponges...

I'm so not up to this. I'm sorry. I'm upset. I have a lot going on at the moment (relationship wise I mean) & my tank has already been part of the issue (it's taking up a lot of my time & putting added pressure on things).

sorry to vent. I don't know what to do. Can you talk me through what I need to do please? x

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